Internet Provider Problem - how would you handle this?

[Matt Meiser]

Here's the background. Early summer I contacted a wireless internet provider that supposedly served my area. They said that they were installing additional equipment necessary to serve additional customers out my way and that it would be available mid to late summer and they would contact me then. Late summer came and went without a word so I called in September. I was told that they could install me in a few weeks because they had bought a van and were having a lift installed and that's when it would be ready. A few weeks came and went so I called back and was told they were still waiting on the van--another week or two and they'd be ready. Finally in late October she told me she would try to come out and do it by climbing my tower. On the perscribed day it was windy so I figured she would cancel but she never bothered to call. I called mid week and she said she'd try to come out Friday or definitely Sunday. Friday she was a no-show and no call either. Sunday, 11/2 she finally came and did the install.

Right away I said something was wrong because it was too slow. When I say slow, I mean that I later clocked it at 500KBS down and 40--yes four zero--up. She said it was probably due to Sunday evening's heavy usage. Monday it was no better and kept dropping out on me so I called. She said she'd come out Tuesday. Late afternoon Tuesday she showed up and worked on some settings. Then she said she had to run into town and change something and that she'd be back in a little bit. She never came back. Wednesday either. Thursday I called and asked what was going on and she said she would be back Friday to work on it. Again she never showed and I called her office Friday afternoon to find her there. She said she'd been out working in town and it should be working and that I needed to reboot the radio to get it running. Of course that didn't work and in fact it didn't work at all. She said she'd be back out in the morning. At that point, as nicely as possible, told her that I couldn't keep waiting around in hopes that she'd show and that it was frustrating that she kept missing apppointments, and more importantly not letting me know. She said there was no reason for me to wait since the equipment is all outside. So Saturday we ran errands and passed her leaving town on the way home. Again I tried it and. it wasn't working.

Sunday afternoon she called me and said that she had to order some replacement equipment which she was doing first thing Monday morning and she would be out later in the week to install it. I tried to be patient and didn't call until she hadn't shown up by Monday morning this past week. She the said she was going to try to come out Tuesday and she would call me. You guessed it--no call. I called Friday and she was out of the office so I left a message for her to call me--no call. I called early afternoon and she was out but due back shortly. Still no call as of tonight. I just sent a message that said "Dear Ms ____, I would appreciate the courtesy of a response to the messages I left with your staff on Friday November 21, 2008 and Sunday, November 23, 2008. I can be reached at ....." Sincerely, Matthew Meiser. "

I sorely need this service for business purposes. DSL isn't an option due to Verizons POS network, the cable company with the monopoly over our area won't build down our road, and the other cable company won't look into it due to the first's monopoly. I have a backup option but it will cost $180/mo. Satellite is not an option due to the latency and my business needs and Sprint changed their contracts this past summer to limit our current 3G service to only 5GB per month of data.

What I want to do is call her in the morning and chew her a new you-know-what. I know that won't get what I need. What I'm probably going to do is start out saying that I've tried to be patient but that I've pretty much reached the end of my patience. I'm planning to recount the course of events to this point. Then I'm planning to tell her that I need her to get out here right away and do what she's been promising and make a reasonable attempt to get it working. My plan is to be very disappointed in how things have gone to this point and firm that it needs to get resolved right away.

If the conversation goes badly, my plan is to scare her into doing in. I plan to tell her that I will do the following:
- Contact the small-town newspaper that many people in her target market read.
- Contact the management of the co-op owned grain elevator that is her landlord for the equipment and raise a stink.
- Post my experiences on a community forum a number of people in our area read.
- Contact our township and county government, our state attorney general, and the FCC.
- File a complaint with the BBB.

If she still isn't going to make a reasonable attempt, I'm going to tell her she has 48 hours to remove the equipment from my property, at a prescheduled time of my convenience and that any other access to my property will be considered to be trespassing and I'll call the police.

I don't have any contract with her at this point and I've paid no money. I actually wish I had because I'd probably have more legal pull. I'm actually wondering, legally speaking, not morally, whether she could even come after me if I siezed the equipment since we have no contract. She actually has never told me that I don't own the equipment, though I do know that standard practice in that industry is that the provider owns the equipment. Just the fact I've put that in writing probably says she could. I'm half expecting to get the mail one day and find a bill for installation and the first month of service. I've done some reading and talked to an acquantance who owns a similar service in another state. Based on all the information I have, there's no technological reason this shouldn't be working if installed properly. The problem is most likely either a bad piece of equipment or a misalligned antenna.

So what would you do? Am I way off base?

[Phil Thien]

It is entirely possible that she is experiencing problems that she is incapable of resolving. It could be for technical or financial (doesn't have the money to purchase the hardware to fix the problem) reasons.

I would simply ask her the following questions: (1) What do you think the problem is. (2) What have you tried so far. (3) What do you plan to try in order to resolve the problem.

If she thinks the problem is on your end (radio), I'd find the name of the manufacturer of that equipment and call them. Explain the problems you're experiencing and ask them if they have any information or troubleshooting advice. They may be familiar with your problems already if she has been in contact with them about it.

I'd also try to find the names of other customers using her service. Make sure others are working, so you know her up-stream is okay.

But I would try a little more sugar/honey than vinegar. And I would try to figure out as much as possibly myself, I'd just dig right in.

Because if she was capable of making it work, she'd have it working already.

[Don Bullock]

Wow Matt. That sounds like a real bummer.

I'm going to be in a similar situation location wise when I move to our new house. At this point I didn't know that there were options for me other than satellite or dial-up. Yep, I'm behind the times. If she gets her act together and gives you speeds as high as my present DSL I'd love to know more about the technology and how to find out who can provide that kind of service where I'm moving.

Good luck.

[Ross Ellis]

Don,

Stay far away from Wildblue satellite. I had an absolute nightmare with them. A quick recap without all the boring details. The installer ripped me off, quoted $300 for install, charged my card $1000 they said the installers are independent and can charge what they want. This was after everyone at wildblue...all the way up to the vice-presidents assistant saying it was crazy.

Service went down after about a year. We waited 6 months for a service tech to come out. Basically, they pay their subcontractors $35 of the $75 they charge for a call. No one wants to do a house call for $35. Can't say I blame them. Also, you pay a service call even if the problem is faulty equipment.

Do some reading online if you are even considering wildblue. There are tons of BBB cases and government complaints.

[Randy Davidson]

+1 on Wild Blue. I could not get rid of them fast enough. However I have to agree what service tech wants to drive out in the rural areas for a $35 house call.
I just switched over to a Alltel phone card and using a wireless router I am able to use if for 2 laptops, 1 desktop and my PS3. Getting good connectivity. All I'm saying is there is other options and you don't have to put up with some operators BS.

[Matt Meiser]

Doug, I've had Direcway (now Hughesnet) and they aren't great either. There are inherent problems with satellite due to the latency resulting from sending signals to a satellite, back to the ground, across the country or world, back to the ground station, back to space, then finally back to you. Since I do a lot of work with remote desktop software, that latency becomes a real issue. There are also some problems with implementation and the real bandwidth vs. the number of subscribers they have using that bandwith. For an average home user, its a mediocre solution that's better than dailup. There are a lot of Direcway or Hughesnet dishes in my neighborhood. If I had to go back to satellite, and I've had to think a lot about that, I'd definitely choose Hughesnet over WildBlue.

Another option is 3G service from Sprint, Verizon, AT&T, etc. These are marketed as "mobile broadband cards." That technology has worked great for me, but over the last year or so they've all chosen to cap that service at 5GB/mo usage. For an average few-minutes-per-night home user that's probably not a big deal unless they download much music (legal or not) or worse, movies or video podcasts. The speed here is definitely better than satellite and there's no significant latency. For Sprint, existing subscribers who exceed the cap can be terminated or have their speed reduced. New subscribers are subject to a $50/gb overage charge. So downloading a 3GB move after you've exceeded the 5gb limit would cost you $150.

I found a major enterprise connectivity provider that is reselling the Sprint and Verizon service uncapped. Due to their size, they were able to negotiate uncapped contracts. But I have to buy or lease their equipment in addition to a monthly service charge that is double what Sprint and Verizon charge directly. But as the president of my company told me when we were discussing it, "if that's what we have to do then that's what we have to do--its not like we have a choice."

What I'm trying to get is generically termed a Wireless Internet Service Provider or WISP. These are usually smaller companies and they use either 900MHz, 2.4GHz, 5.8GHz radios or occasionally other licensed bands. They generally have a 5-10 mile radius of service around a tower depending on terrain and other factors. There is a directory of providers at http://www.wispdirectory.com/. Obviously, like most internet directories it isn't all inclusive. I found additional ones somewhat close by searching for city names and "WISP" or "wireless internet".

There's another technology called WiMax on the horizon. Sprint has started to roll it out in the Baltimore, Chicago, and DFW areas under the brand name XOHM. They've been talking a rapid nationwide deployment (like within 1 year) but with the economy we'll see. Since they have the tower infrastructure in place they have a good head start. The early speed reports are great and the cost is about $40/mo with no contracts and cheap ($80) hardware for home use. The service is specifically marketed as supporting modern high-bandwidth internet usage like movies, music. We were pretty early in Sprint's 3G network rollout so I'm hoping that will hold true for XOHM.

Phil--I think you've hit the nail on the head with respect to her knowledge being the problem. But on top of it, she won't provide basic customer service. I've had several conversations with her about what she thinks is wrong, etc. I also talked to a nearby business owner who I know. He is very close to my house so we should see generally the same conditions. During one of her attempts to "adjust some settings" she knocked him off the air for over 24 hours. He said another one of his customers had been complaining about her recently. On the other side of town, which is a different set of antennas, she is providing service to a church that has an open wireless access point. I've taken my laptop up there and tried it out. I'd be singing her praises if I got 1/2 the speed I see there. She thinks the problem is interference or her antennas. So what she promised me she would do over two weeks ago now is that she was going to replace all the south-facing antennas, and she was going to set up another radio with a highly directional antenna aimed right at me. Then she was going to change out my radio/antenna with the same. They would be running at a different frequency than the rest of her network (and everyone in between's home networks). I told her that if that would get it running I'd gladly pay extra per month. She just hasn't done it. It could be that there is an issue with it, but she didn't indicate that when I spoke to her a week ago today, and she won't call me back since so I don't know. I've even offered that if she needs an extra set of hands getting the stuff physically installed and aimed I'd be happy to be on one end do that while she is on the other.

[Jim Becker]

Matt, is this woman at the top of the food chain of the provider company? If not, perhaps you should be escalating things...if she is chief in charge, then this "performance" doesn't bode well for ongoing service and support. In that context, I agree with your employer and if they are willing to pay the freight, then the expensive, but uncapped 3G service is probably a better bet. Since I also work from home when I'm not traveling, I absolutely understand your issues, especially since I use a VPN-enabled IP phone and a lot of other facilities that are network critical.

[Matt Meiser]

Yep, she's the owner of the company. I've long suspected that, but today I realized that I could verify it in their BBB listing. I just got off the phone with her, a call I had to make. I calmly told her that I was getting pretty upset because she's missed date after date without me hearing a thing. She says she's been doing some cabling and hardware installation on the tower (grain elevator) but has been slowed by wind conditions. I told her that's fine, but I would appreciate phone calls to update me if she is going to miss a promised date. She says definitely today as long as the winds stay low and the rain breaks as forecast in the next hour. I'm not holding my breath. The plan for short-to-long term is a radio and antenna on the tower dedicated to me, with a highly directional antenna running at 5.8GHz.

If she can get a reliable radio link between me and the tower and other problems cause issues for me, I'm prepared to pay for an additional commercial cable account, which is what they use for backhaul, dedicated to me. From what I've found out so far, it sounds like it would just be a matter paying for it and moving some patch cables. But right now it looks like the major problem is the 90% packet loss on the upstream radio link.

Jim, You are right on about the support and that is a serious fear of mine even if she does get it working. I've prepped my bosses that we'll be in evaluation mode if she does get it working. And I'll be keeping my existing 3G card active as a backup. I'll probably have (and volunteered that I would be willing to do so if that's what it takes) to pay part of the cost of the uncapped 3G service. Its cheaper than finding a new job, moving, or renting office space in town.

Since this service involves no contracts, what I'm hoping for is that I can get something "good enough" to tide me over until WiMax comes, one of the cable companies decides to build, or one of the larger WISPs that are within 10-20 miles comes up here.

[Ben Franz]

+2 on Wildblue - threw them out after 10 days. Installer was a jerk who never returned calls. On positive side, they refunded every penny I paid them when the cancellation was processed.

[Jim Becker]

Matt, don't count on WiMAX in anything like the near future and especially out in areas like you live. While Sprint is rolling it out in some areas, such as Baltimore, it's not really the going forward technology in the wireless fixed/mobile Internet space. It's already been around for awhile and many providers are skipping it for the other 4th gen stuff.

[Ken Garlock]

Hello Matt.

I used "speakeasy.net" when I lived in Plano prior to Verizon getting around to providing DSL in my neighborhood. Speakeasy is a national provider, and tends to use Covad for their circuits.

The service I had was not truly DSL, but rather a speed up of ISDN. It gave us 144kb both directions. The effective rate was more like 130kb. When we moved to the McKinney area, we were like 4 miles from the CO and ma-bell didn't have an answer other than dial up. The Covad people, through Speakeasy, came out and hooked us up, no problem.

You might go to the Covad site (http://www.covad.com/) and check to see if they provide service in your neighborhood.

Finally, last fall, ma bell put a fiber repeater about a mile down the road, and we all lived happily ever after.:rolleyes::cool:

[Matt Meiser]

I thought Wimax and 4G were synonymous? Actually I thought Wimax was Sprint's version of 4G while AT&T and Verizon were doing something different. Since I'm only 8 miles outside the City of Toledo, OH and between the travel corridors between Toledo and Ann Arbor and Toledo and Detroit, we have traditionally gotten the newfangled wireless products pretty early in the rollout cycle. That's the way it was with PCS and EVDO Rev A. 8 more miles north is another story. There's still a Rev A hole up that way I believe.

I actually talked to Covad a few minutes ago. They have no service offerings in my area. The reason I'd contacted them was to see if they had the unlimited 3G, which they don't. We can't even get ISDN. We could get a T1 line. For $800 per month! I figure at $350 we could find a way to make that work by moving to VOIP for both phones and reselling access to a couple neighbors.

[Karl Brogger]

I've got the wireless you're talking about matt. But I live less than 200yds from the tower so I get pretty good service. My only complaint is how it works with the PS3. I can't get anything better than a Type 3 connection, which messes with some online gaming. The PS3 acts as a server for online gaming, and when I try to host a game other players don't get a ping, and can not connect. that's my only complaint, but different companies....

[Eric DeSilva]

Both LTE and WiMAX are considered 4G technologies, and Clearwire (Sprint is in a joint venture w/Clearwire) is committed to WiMAX. That said, if you are in a very rural area, I wouldn't count on seeing it anytime soon. I would expect that Clearwire, like most companies, is going to predict the biggest bang for its network cap ex buck in the high density areas and start there...

Matt, it actually sounds like she may be doing what she can for you, as sucky as that is. The errors may be due to distance to the node, not misalignment, in which case a directional antenna pointed at just you is going to make a difference.

At least you get 40 bps. My local WISP came out to my cabin and just said "no way." ;)

[Jim Becker]

Not sure you'd want to resell part of a T1 Matt, since it's only 1.5 up and down, although symmetrical...

On my previous comment about WiMAX, I didn't meant imply it was not 4th generation...I left a word out of the last sentence because I was typing too fast. It should have read, "...re skipping it for the other 4th gen stuff", referring to LTE. My apologies. And I've corrected that post.

[Matt Meiser]

Well, she canceled on me again, blaming the weather. But MAJOR progress in that she actually called. Maybe the message got through. She says she's coming down early Thanksgiving morning to finish the work on the tower. Its supposed to be windy tomorrow into Wednesday, then calm Thursday. She said time permitting she come to my house and make the changes outside even if we aren't home, or she'll come over the weekend. We'll see....

Eric, I suspect you are right, but the total lack of communication is not giving me or my employer a warm fuzzy. As Jim pointed out, this is business critical. I'm really concerned about repair turnaround when its needed.

I did glean a scary tidbit. She isn't the original owner. They original guys built all their own antennas. Cantennas (http://www.netscum.com/%7Eclapp/wireless.html) to be exact. Two problems with that--first a couple winters for Pringles can is asking a lot. Second, that seems like way too directional of an antenna for the tower to me--but what do I know. If I'm off to the side of the beam, I suspect that would be a major problem. Apparently in the spring she replaced all the cantennas with real commercial antennas on the north side which is working well. The south side (my side) has these. Hmmmmmm.....

I really didn't want to be a Wifi engineer...

[Phil Thien]

I've even offered that if she needs an extra set of hands getting the stuff physically installed and aimed I'd be happy to be on one end do that while she is on the other.

Well, crap. You're kinda stuck.

When you threaten her, make sure you tell her you're going to speak to the bank that is lending her all the money she is using to buy equipment she doesn't know how to operate. :eek:

[Matt Meiser]

Well,
Thursday came and went--nothing
Friday came and went--nothing
Today is over 1/2 gone--nothing

Monday I'm sending her a registered letter. The gist will be that she has until 5PM Friday to remove her equipment from my property at which time I will consider it abandoned. Its billing time--I really expect her to be dumb enough to bill me. If she does, I'm contacting the state attorney general. I'm also signing a contract for a very expensive wireless service that should work as well, if not better than, what I have now but with no caps. A nice side benefit is that it will not block inbound ports like Sprint so I can also set up inbound VPN and a home server.

[Matt Meiser]

Well, she never showed up or called last weekend. So Sunday night I faxed and emailed a letter to her basically saying she was fired. I gave her until 5PM tomorrow afternoon to remove the equipment and told her she had to call me to set up an appointment and that she wasn't welcome to just show up--I'd consider it tresspassing. I told her I'd dispose of the equipment after that. Now I'm not sure any of that is legally enforcable, but what the heck, she's wasted hours of my time and I'm PO'd.:rolleyes: I'm not trying to climb the tower to take it down so I guess it will sit there, at least until we get a new satellite TV dish--then I'll give the installer $20 to take it down since the dish is on the same tower (about 15' lower.) I also demanded to be compensated for a new router I bought since our Sprint service uses a special router. Needless to say, she hasn't called. :confused:

I followed up Monday with a registered letter, and I sent copies to the farmers coop (her landlord) by fax, and our township supervisor and our representative on the county board of commissioners who lives in our township. Then I talked to the manager of the coop later in the day--he was none to happy with her. We had a pretty nice conversation and I suspect that the situation will be discussed at the next coop meeting.

I also signed a contract for a very expensive commercial service. It will be installed tomorrow.

[Frank Hagan]

I sorely need this service for business purposes. DSL isn't an option due to Verizons POS network, the cable company with the monopoly over our area won't build down our road, and the other cable company won't look into it due to the first's monopoly. I have a backup option but it will cost $180/mo. Satellite is not an option due to the latency and my business needs and Sprint changed their contracts this past summer to limit our current 3G service to only 5GB per month of data.


Check with your state's public service commission at http://www.michigan.gov/mpsc ... the cable company may be compelled to build down your road. That's often a requirement of their charter. I know it is in many areas (and my past experience with the state of MI in another field leads me to believe it may be in MI).