Questions regarding floor joists and wood ceiling

[Rob Noble]

Hi all, glad I found this site. Completely by accident lol. I'm not really a woodworker, I am a sheetmetal worker by trade. I did however have 4 years of wood work in HS but that was a long time ago and currently am remodeling my old house.

Question #1: Whoever built this place never had any intention of using the upstairs as they used 2x6 for floor joists, or should I say ceiling rafters. They are old and strong, but not really suitable by themselves. I've heard different oppinions but would like more before I forge forward. I do "not" want to remove them because I wish to remodel the upstairs first then the downstairs and there removal would require both to be done at once. So.....I am considering scabbing on to them. What size? I've heard another 2x6 is sufficient but im thinking 2x8. Ideas?

Question #2: I just vaulted the front room. I used tongue and groove pine. The peak is 24' tall, it turned out awesome. At the present moment, which isn't a rarity the last few years, I am laid off. Therefore I am considering some perhaps crazy ideas to save $ and want to run them by you. The upstairs room is fairly large, 36x28 and peaks at 18'. I am aware of most of the vaulting stuff, air spaces, etc etc.

My question is this: Not wanting to spend a ton of money right now I am considering making my own t&g boards. Earlier today I experimented by taking a 2x6 and cutting it in half lengthwise so essentially I ended up with (2) 1x6's. I was able to get them pretty darn close to the same width. I am considering buying the nicer 2x6's with a smooth side on each and to keep from getting a really boring flat look I have a router and will go down the middle of each board with some sort of cutout.

I discovered a 2x6 cut in half roughly yields a 5/8" thick board, is that sufficient to make a t&g joint and can you buy router bits that would work on a 5/8" board??

While it may be a lot more work, I have lots of time on my hands and considering I have about 1500 square feet to cover this would save a huge amount of $. What do you think of this?

Working in construction I often have to come up with out of the ordinary ideas. I just ran remodel project at an old hospital for the last 2 years almost and was continually fronted with problems that required out of the box thinking. I've even gone so far as to consider taking small pieces of sheetmetal, screwing it to the back of these boards with small screws, screwing them to the rafters, and then with the adjoining piece the same except it would have small straps on the bottom that would go behind the first piece to keep them together.

LOL.......the things you think of when you're not bringing in a paycheck.

Any thoughts, ideas, advice would all be greatly appreciated!

[Rob Noble]

I discovered cutting a 2x6 like this isn't the easiest thing to do. I'll probably only use 8 footers, ill build a large rip table on each side so I can handle it myself. Saw seemed to handle it ok, if worse comes to worse I have lots of big motors, arbors etc around ill build a single purpose machine just for this project.

[Rob Noble]

I realize perhaps these questions might be better off on a builders site but you all seem to be pretty knowledgable so thought id see if I could get some input. And im sure since my rooms are mostly wood that i've redone ill have some related questions in the future.

[Brian Effinger]

Rob,
I'm an architect here in New York - currently laid off too, and I can tell you that if you're thinking of converting the attic space into living space, you should consult an architect. Your local building department may require you to anyway. As far as 2x6's or 2x8 being sufficient, it has to do with the span of the joists and any other loads coming down on them, such as the roof. These types of jobs are far more complicated than they seem at first. That is why I'd strongly suggest talking to a professional. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Brian

[Jim Kountz]

Wow where to start, well first off welcome to the creek! I understand you are trying to save some $$ and all but resawing 2x6's into 1x6's is quite the chore now matter how you stack it up. Consider just buying 1x6's to start with. Another choice would be to buy the 1x6 in the rough and beg borrow or steal a planer to get them to the desired width. You will end up with a much better more uniform stock this way. After that the edges with need to be treated (straightend) a jointer is the best tool for this task. Then you can go to the router table with a set of T&G bits to make the desired profile. Again, this is all alot of work and will take some time but its very doable, the thing is it takes certain equipment time and knowledge of a certain level to complete. Not saying you dont or cant aquire such knowledge Im just saying. If you still want to got the resaw route you can but you're going to put alot of strain on a tablesaw doing it (assuming thats the tool you're trying to use). You will end up with a pretty rough cut too. I guess you could turn this cut in so it doesnt show but still working with such material is going to be a real pain in my opinion. My best suggestion as to buy the 1x6 or have it planed. Good luck with this and keep us posted on your progress!!

Jim

[Jim Kountz]

As far as those ceiling joists go I look at it like this, If you're going to go through the trouble of beefing it up to support more weight, I would use 2x8 or even 2x10 if you can get them in there. You may have to put an angled cut on the end but this would make a stronger ceiling/floor. Also the advice above to check with local codes is sound advice. It would be awful to go through all this just to fail an inspection down the road.

[Rob Noble]

Rob,
I'm an architect here in New York - currently laid off too, and I can tell you that if you're thinking of converting the attic space into living space, you should consult an architect. Your local building department may require you to anyway. As far as 2x6's or 2x8 being sufficient, it has to do with the span of the joists and any other loads coming down on them, such as the roof. These types of jobs are far more complicated than they seem at first. That is why I'd strongly suggest talking to a professional. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Brian

Hi Brian, fortunately for me I live in the sticks and codes, etc. are a non-issue. Not to sound like a know it all, I certainly am not, I generally overbuild stuff. It will be ok, just seeking opinions.

I've remodeled lots of old bldgs but don't have a lot of housing experience. The front room here is 12x24, I removed the ceiling joists, put in a walkway, scabbed onto the roof rafters for air floor, added continuous soffits and roof vents, turned out pretty cool.

I already know, without doubt, that if I placed a 2x10 next to these that the strength would be more than suffiecient. At most they span 12'. But if I could get by with less is the question. A builder out here swears I can use another 2x6 but I don't like the idea, esp. after going thru a few new homes in the middle of construction. I ran into one that only had 2 stringers on the steps, with 2 nasty 2x4's that were concrete forms placed between them, and they were planning on capping this junk with hard wood. Lord. You've got to be kidding me? LOL.

Thanks for your concern, whatever I do on my own I assure you won't fall down but theres no need to go overboard either which is what im trying to avoid.

[Rob Noble]

As far as those ceiling joists go I look at it like this, If you're going to go through the trouble of beefing it up to support more weight, I would use 2x8 or even 2x10 if you can get them in there. You may have to put an angled cut on the end but this would make a stronger ceiling/floor. Also the advice above to check with local codes is sound advice. It would be awful to go through all this just to fail an inspection down the road.


Hi Jim, please explain this angled cut idea?? BTW something else is my wife grew up here, we're never moving, an inspection will never happen. This place was literally falling down when I started working on it lol.

As far as the 2x6's.........yeah that could be a huge amount of work but then again winter is coming on and it's all indoors lol. I will have to check the cost of 1x6's to see if it would be worth it.

And of course if im going to burn up $500.00 worth of equipment trying to do this that's another consideration.

The wife doesn't realize how expensive this stuff is. I probably have 15k plus in the front room alone and that's doing it all myself.

[Neal Clayton]

Rob,
I'm an architect here in New York - currently laid off too, and I can tell you that if you're thinking of converting the attic space into living space, you should consult an architect. Your local building department may require you to anyway. As far as 2x6's or 2x8 being sufficient, it has to do with the span of the joists and any other loads coming down on them, such as the roof. These types of jobs are far more complicated than they seem at first. That is why I'd strongly suggest talking to a professional. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Brian

a lot of old houses in my area had their roofs ruined by finished attics, that caused enough movement to create leaks.

not saying it can't be done, but brian is right about the structural considerations.

if you ruin a perfectly good 100+ year old slate/clay/etc roof and wind up having to replace it with asphalt shingles and plywood, the ghost of the original owner will haunt you ;).

welcome to my nightmare, i'm 1 year into the restoration of a 1908 house myself.

[Rob Noble]

a lot of old houses in my area had their roofs ruined by finished attics, that caused enough movement to create leaks.

not saying it can't be done, but brian is right about the structural considerations.

if you ruin a perfectly good 100+ year old slate/clay/etc roof and wind up having to replace it with asphalt shingles and plywood, the ghost of the original owner will haunt you ;).

welcome to my nightmare, i'm 1 year into the restoration of a 1908 house myself.

Cool, I already have asphalt shingles and plywood. When I took this over I had as many as 4 layers of asphalt in some places on top of wood shake. Talk about a nightmare.

I'd say the biggest structural deal are the spanners, which I am basically keeping but changing a few things. Also the weight of the celing. I have come up with a way of putting the stress mostly on the walls vs. pulling down on the roof rafters, I figured on the first go round this would not be a good idea. I basically have another set of roof rafters that are free standing on there own and place minimumal stress on the actual roof. Believe it or not lol.

[Rob Noble]

a lot of old houses in my area had their roofs ruined by finished attics, that caused enough movement to create leaks.

not saying it can't be done, but brian is right about the structural considerations.

if you ruin a perfectly good 100+ year old slate/clay/etc roof and wind up having to replace it with asphalt shingles and plywood, the ghost of the original owner will haunt you ;).

welcome to my nightmare, i'm 1 year into the restoration of a 1908 house myself.

BTW........sorry you also were suckered into this. lol!!!! Trust me if it weren't for my wife id be living someplace much smaller and already completed. Don't get me wrong, this place is turning out awesome but all I do is work on it the last 3 years and have another 3 or so to go. That means I don't have to worry about tornados for at least 3 years lol!

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Hey Ron,

I can help you out with the joists....I sistered a set of 2x6's with 2x8's and attached them to either the plate or the stud if there was one as well as the saggy 2x6's. You'll want to jack up each joist to level before you sister them. I do this fairly oftem when helping out friends with saggy floors. I just finished a job where I had to do this but they were all 2x12's. The guy before me installed them crown down. :eek:

Resawing is a slow but effective way. I say if you have time and don't mind buying a few blades and bits...go for it. I made my own lath [350 lineal feet] for a screen room I am doing....saved $220 and it only took 5 hours [I stained them all as well].

[Jim Kountz]

Hi Jim, please explain this angled cut idea??

Well if this is in an attic and you're running ceiling joists depending on the pitch of the roof and the thickness of the wall you are only going to have X amount of height on the ends. At some point a taller board would come in contact with the underside of the roof. See what I mean? In order to get the new joists to run wall to wall and rest on the top of the wall rather than simply nailing them to exisiting joists you may have to slice off the ends of the new joists at an angle to get them to fit. See very bad drawing of what I mean.

[Brian Effinger]

Rob - 2x10's would certainly span 12', but you could even get away with the 2x8's, although you are getting closer to their maximum span limit. Of course nailing them to the existing 2x6 joists would add strength too. The real problem that comes into play is any intermediate loads. If you build walls up there in the middle of the span and the end up taking some of the roof weight, then you might have a problem. I think that it would still be a good idea to have someone come out and take a look at things, even if you don't need stamped drawings for a permit. An architect or engineer who has done additions would be able to steer you in the right direction, and their fee wouldn't be all that much if all they are offering is advice, and maybe a sketch or two. I've seen a lot of botched jobs (including some by the previous owners of my house) that don't pose a safety concern, but they do create headaches years down the road when drywall starts cracking and doors & windows are stuck shut. It's better to get some advice now then have to ask later how to fix any problems that crop up. No matter which way you go, good luck. It sounds like a big project.

Brian

[Neal Clayton]

BTW........sorry you also were suckered into this. lol!!!! Trust me if it weren't for my wife id be living someplace much smaller and already completed. Don't get me wrong, this place is turning out awesome but all I do is work on it the last 3 years and have another 3 or so to go. That means I don't have to worry about tornados for at least 3 years lol!


i actually did it on my own, sucker for punishment etc.

got run out of new orleans by the hurricane and wound up in little rock, and found a place that one of the original late 1800s department store owners in town built with outrageously expensive materials that was shouting "throw money at me" from the street when i drove by it :rolleyes:

at least, that's my story and i'm sticking to it.

and i was drawn in as you were basically. my dad was a real estate developer so i grew up on jobsites, i'm thinking to myself the whole time "how hard can it be?"

a year later i've built doors, and molding, and windows, and walls, and have one room done to show for it, and lots of others in various stages of slightly-improved-but-still-a-mess, heh.

either way, take a look at the molder threads around here. the shop fox and woodmaster units will make your T&G production alot easier if you really want to do it yourself.

[Matt Ocel]

Rob -
Listen to Brian.

[Rob Noble]

Rob - 2x10's would certainly span 12', but you could even get away with the 2x8's, although you are getting closer to their maximum span limit. Of course nailing them to the existing 2x6 joists would add strength too. The real problem that comes into play is any intermediate loads. If you build walls up there in the middle of the span and the end up taking some of the roof weight, then you might have a problem. I think that it would still be a good idea to have someone come out and take a look at things, even if you don't need stamped drawings for a permit. An architect or engineer who has done additions would be able to steer you in the right direction, and their fee wouldn't be all that much if all they are offering is advice, and maybe a sketch or two. I've seen a lot of botched jobs (including some by the previous owners of my house) that don't pose a safety concern, but they do create headaches years down the road when drywall starts cracking and doors & windows are stuck shut. It's better to get some advice now then have to ask later how to fix any problems that crop up. No matter which way you go, good luck. It sounds like a big project.

Brian

Yeah im actually having someone come out and take look, im pretty sure what I want to do will be ok. BTW........there aren't going to be any walls up there. Theres going to be a huge tv, a bar and a bathroom. Everything I need. Well ok, the bathroom is enclosed lol.

[Rob Noble]

Well if this is in an attic and you're running ceiling joists depending on the pitch of the roof and the thickness of the wall you are only going to have X amount of height on the ends. At some point a taller board would come in contact with the underside of the roof. See what I mean? In order to get the new joists to run wall to wall and rest on the top of the wall rather than simply nailing them to exisiting joists you may have to slice off the ends of the new joists at an angle to get them to fit. See very bad drawing of what I mean.

Hi Jim, that's actually a very good drawing. I should've gone into more detail so you wouldn't had to go to the trouble. The outer walls where you have the angle cut actually are 4' tall from the ceiling to the roof rafters. So this won't be necesary. It peaks at 18' so this is a little more than just an attic.

I'm not real fond of the point where the 2x6 joists are held up on the walls. I forget the term (header board??) but they just sit on top of nasty scraps nailed onto the wall studs. In the front room where I built the walkway I redid that and will have to do the same thing here. Probably just end up using big lag bolts and maybe even place angle iron or something underneath. It won't fall down I know that for sure lol.

[Rob Noble]

Hey Ron,

I can help you out with the joists....I sistered a set of 2x6's with 2x8's and attached them to either the plate or the stud if there was one as well as the saggy 2x6's. You'll want to jack up each joist to level before you sister them. I do this fairly oftem when helping out friends with saggy floors. I just finished a job where I had to do this but they were all 2x12's. The guy before me installed them crown down. :eek:

Resawing is a slow but effective way. I say if you have time and don't mind buying a few blades and bits...go for it. I made my own lath [350 lineal feet] for a screen room I am doing....saved $220 and it only took 5 hours [I stained them all as well].

Thanks for the advice. I'll probaby just use 2x10's. The old 2x6's are like rocks and could probably get away with 2x8's but it's not much more $ too have to not worry about it. I've actually checked the level on the 2x6's and there all pretty close actually. See there's no weight up there right now. The room is 28' wide but the walls of the hallway down the middle support the studs 12' from each outter wall. Considering the builder out here will sister another 2x6 with the existing 2x6.......I should be good with a 2x10. I visited this guys house............no thanks that said it all.

[Matt Ocel]

Rob -
Keep in mind, Typically you would get a #2 or better from a lumber yard. See chart table 15

These span tables (Table 15 (http://www.raisedfloorliving.com/spantables-2.shtml#table15), Table 16 (http://www.raisedfloorliving.com/spantables-2.shtml#table16), Table 17 (http://www.raisedfloorliving.com/spantables-2.shtml#table17), and Table 18 (http://www.raisedfloorliving.com/spantables-2.shtml#table18)) are intended as guidelines to provide the user with an idea of the maximum spans in feet and inches for various wood products with floor loads common in raised floor systems. These spans were determined in accordance with appropriate standards, such as the National Design Specification® (NDS®) for Wood Construction published by the American Forest & Paper Association and the National Design Specification for Metal Plate Connected Wood Truss Construction published by the Truss Plate Institute. They are based on uniform, gravity loads only, and assume dry-service conditions. For more complete span table information, refer to Maximum Spans for Joists and Rafters (http://newstore.southernpine.com/cgi-bin/newsopine/product?;4;), www.awc.org (http://www.awc.org/), or www.woodtruss.com (http://www.woodtruss.com/).

Table 15 Floor Joists — Solid-Sawn Southern Pine Lumber40 psf live load, 10 psf dead load, ℓ/360 deflectionSize
inchesSpacing
inches on centerGradeNo.1
feet-inchesNo.2
feet-inchesNo.3
feet-inches2 x 81214-514-211-111613-112-1010-32411-511-08-52 x 101218-518-014-01616-916-112-22414-713-19-112 x 121222-521-916-81620-418-1014-62417-515-511-10http://www.raisedfloorliving.com/spacer.gif
Source: Maximum Spans for Southern Pine Joists & Rafters (http://newstore.southernpine.com/cgi-bin/newsopine/product?;4;), Southern Pine Council. Maximum spans are from inside to inside of bearings.

[Chris Weishaar]

Rob,

I use the same engineer for alot of my houses and learned a great trick for just the situation that you described in question #1. You can sister metal studs onto the existing joists to take the added load and or span. It is a relatively quick and easy way to beef everything up. It would require an engineer to pick the proper metal stud, but once picked you can generally order the studs to whatever length you need and then screw them into place. I have used this successfully where changing a 2x8 to a 2x12 would cause problems with the loss of the 4" in height. Make sure to have an engineer check things out and take into account the future partitions upstairs. Also make sure the engineer is a bit "progressive" in that they are willing to look at creative solutions such as using metal studs.