Target Ultima WR Stain application

[Russell Tribby]

I'm using this to finish a large built in for a customer. I can't seem to get the color dark enough. I'm using the cordova color and trying to get a dark cherry. I presealed everything (maple ply and alder) with a 50/50 mix of wb lacquer and water and then sanded it smooth with 320. I've sprayed the stain on some scraps and after two coats it isn't getting any darker. When I sprayed a third coat and wiped the excess off it was like I was wiping the entire coat off. Do I need to completely let it dry and then apply another coat or two?
Unrelated...I've seen that some people seal the stain with a coat of de-waxed shellac. Should I cut or thin the shellac or just spray it on as is?

[Jim Becker]

I can't answer your color question outside of suggesting you'll need to continue to spray coats to get it darker as I'm not familiar with the product you are using. And yes you do need to let it dry before you get anywhere near it with a rag if you are spraying...since you sealed the wood, it's just sitting on top. Effectively, you now have a toner, not a stain.

As to the shellac question, if you're using Zinsser SealCoat, you can spray it without cutting it further...it's about a 2 lb cut out of the container and that's exactly how I spray it.

[Russell Tribby]

I can't answer your color question outside of suggesting you'll need to continue to spray coats to get it darker as I'm not familiar with the product you are using. And yes you do need to let it dry before you get anywhere near it with a rag if you are spraying...since you sealed the wood, it's just sitting on top. Effectively, you now have a toner, not a stain.

As to the shellac question, if you're using Zinsser SealCoat, you can spray it without cutting it further...it's about a 2 lb cut out of the container and that's exactly how I spray it.

If I don't wipe it off, which is what was suggested to me, then I'm left with droplets of stain. Do I need to increase the pressure at the gun so that I'm getting better atomization? I bought some Transtint dye this afternoon and contemplated adding that to the stain. I also thought about tinting the USL with it and spraying it on after applying a couple of coats of stain.

[Steve Schoene]

I'm having a problem visualizing what you really have. Most waterborne finishes can't be thinned 50% with water. I'm not sure how much sealing you actually got, or whether any apparent film has sufficient integrity to provide a good base for other finish materials to adhere. What specific brand of waterborne finish did you use? (Is the USL? While the technical data sheet is badly written, it looks like around 20% would by the most thinning it should undergo.)

Stain with pigment presents serious problems when trying to achieve a dark color on diffuse porous woods such as maple and alder. They have a tendency toward blotching, which is why people try to pre-seal the surface to prevent that. However, the act of sealing dooms the stain to achieving a moderate darkness at the most. It's not a good idea to try to build up a darker stain by failing to wipe off a wiping stain. The binder in the wiping stain will be relatively weak, but it does seal the surface enough that after a coat or two of stain there is no place for the pigment to penetrate and to lodge in.

Your best first step would not have been sealing, it would be to use a dye product without pigment. This penetrates more evenly, and can darken to quite dark tones with less blotching. This then can be lightly sealed and then a pigment stain applied to give a deeper finish.

But if you have sealed the surface first on the actual project, you are probably stuck, short of the awful task of stripping it off. I don't know the stain you are using, But I would stop after one or two coats at the most, letting them get well cured between coats. But don't just try to make it dark by not wiping off excess--that will always be weaken and would just weaken the total finishing system. It is always good to test the complete finishing system on scrap before the first drop of material goes on the actual project.

Then I would mix the transtint into the USL, not the stain, and spray toner coats of the tinted USL until you achieve the desired darkness. You will obscure the grain some what, but at this point that is inevitable and using the dye toner will be less opaque than if you try to use pigmnet.

[Russell Tribby]

Thanks Steve. The 50/50 mix was recommended by Jeff at Target Coatings. In the past I've put down a coat of de-waxed shellac as a sealer or I've used a wb sanding sealer. As you can probably tell by my stupid questions, finishing isn't exactly my strong point.
The stain I'm using is the Target Ultima WR. The Cordova color is quite dark but since it's not penetrating the wood sufficiently I can't get it dark enough. I will probably end up tinting the USL like you suggested. Not being able to see the grain is not a big deal. The cabinets that I need to match this to are so dark that the grain is barely visible.
I think the next time around I'll try my hand at using a dye. I've never had much luck spraying stains and this time around has just added to that record.

[Russell Tribby]

[quote=Steve Schoene;975012]I'm having a problem visualizing what you really have. Most waterborne finishes can't be thinned 50% with water. I'm not sure how much sealing you actually got, or whether any apparent film has sufficient integrity to provide a good base for other finish materials to adhere. What specific brand of waterborne finish did you use? (Is the USL? While the technical data sheet is badly written, it looks like around 20% would by the most thinning it should undergo.)

Stain with pigment presents serious problems when trying to achieve a dark color on diffuse porous woods such as maple and alder. They have a tendency toward blotching, which is why people try to pre-seal the surface to prevent that. However, the act of sealing dooms the stain to achieving a moderate darkness at the most. It's not a good idea to try to build up a darker stain by failing to wipe off a wiping stain. The binder in the wiping stain will be relatively weak, but it does seal the surface enough that after a coat or two of stain there is no place for the pigment to penetrate and to lodge in.

Your best first step would not have been sealing, it would be to use a dye product without pigment. This penetrates more evenly, and can darken to quite dark tones with less blotching. This then can be lightly sealed and then a pigment stain applied to give a deeper finish.

I don't know what you mean by a dye product without pigment. Can you offer any suggesttions? What would you seal it with?

[Steve Schoene]

Jeff Jewitt formulates and sells TransFast dye, which is also carried by Woodcraft. Other brands include W.D. Lockwood (Tools for Working Wood and others sell this as does Woodworkers Supply, which sells apparently the same material under their J.E. Moser house label.) Behlen makes dyes, and Highland Woodworking sells dyes made by European maker Asti. These are powders that fully dissolve to create the color solution.

Pigment is ground up minerals (natural or synthetic) that don't dissolve in the binder/solvent, but are just carried along with the binder which essentially glues it onto the wood, mostly in the grain pores and sanding scratches, to the extent these are not filled with a sealer. Cheaper stain like Minwax has particles so large that you can almost distinquish them with the naked eye.

Dye is a solution that penetrates into the cell walls of the wood. The coloring consists of molecular size particles orders of magnitude smaller than the pigment particles. After the dye dries, about any top coat can be used. The only caveat is that it is not a good idea to use a water borne finish directly over a water soluble dye, since the finish would redissolve the dye and cause it to bleed into the top coat. But a coat of dewaxed shellac over the dye would have very little bleeding. If you are using an oil based top coat over a water soluble dye you don't need a separate sealer.

I would obviously bow to Jeff's expertise about using Target USL--I hadn't known it could be diluted that much. Question for anyone: Am I right in thinking that this applies only for use as a sealer on raw, porous surfaces, and not when seeking to build a film on the surface? Wouldn't that much dilution adversely impact the ability of the material to coalesce into a film?

[Rob Cunningham]

Steve,
You are correct. Thinning USL 50/50 is for use as a sealer/ pre stain conditioner, on raw wood. Use it undiluted to build your finish. If you are looking for a real high build, you could use the EM8800 sealer first then proceed with USL.

Russell,
The Ultima stains need to be wiped after application. From my conversations with Jeff at Target, I don't think adding more coats of stain are going to achieve a darker color.You could add TransTint to the stain to alter the color, or add stain or TT to USL and begin toning to get the color where you want it. If you add stain to USL, you can only add up to a max of 5%. After getting the right color, apply a coat or two of clear USL. Make samples and keep accurate notes until it comes out right. Run through you whole finishing schedule on scrap. Then you can go for it on your project. Hope this helps. Good luck.

[Russell Tribby]

I tinted the USL with some transtint that I bought and it's working okay. After three coats on some test pieces it's still not quite dark enough. I read that I can use the ultima stain to darken the USL but that I shouldn't exceed 5%. Does that 5% include the transtint that I've already added or can I add 5% of the ultima stain to what I've mixed up already with the transtint?

[Rob Cunningham]

I tinted the USL with some transtint that I bought and it's working okay. After three coats on some test pieces it's still not quite dark enough. I read that I can use the ultima stain to darken the USL but that I shouldn't exceed 5%. Does that 5% include the transtint that I've already added or can I add 5% of the ultima stain to what I've mixed up already with the transtint?

You should be ok adding up to 5% Ultima into the USL/TransTint mixture. If you are close to your color with just USL/TT, maybe just a few more drops of TT would do the trick.

[Russell Tribby]

You should be ok adding up to 5% Ultima into the USL/TransTint mixture. If you are close to your color with just USL/TT, maybe just a few more drops of TT would do the trick.

I thought about that but I only have one bottle of the transtint to last me and I bought a whole gallon of the stain. Any advantage to using the transtint to tint the mixture over using the stain as a tinting agent?

[Rob Cunningham]

I thought about that but I only have one bottle of the transtint to last me and I bought a whole gallon of the stain. Any advantage to using the transtint to tint the mixture over using the stain as a tinting agent?

Please note, this is my understanding from talking to Jeff W at Target.

Because the Ultima stain is a linseed oil based dye stain, adding more than 5% will cause USL to cure to a softer film. That's why you need to topcoat with a coat or two of clear USL.
TransTint is just pure dye concentrate which does not affect the film cure.
I have tinted USL with Ultima stain without any problems. As long as you stay under the 5% everything should be good.