Making ADA Signs

[Keith Outten]

I've started this thread so we can all discuss the different options and techniques commonly used to fabricate ADA signs. There are so many materials available and so many different options it can be difficult deciding which to use for any given project. I understand that often a customer has existing signs and they want new signs made to match, in these cases you really have no choice but to use the existing design and materials.

I make every effort to convince a customer to allow me to convert their signs in a building to the style I build rather than making a few new signs to match their existing design. The Corian signs I normally offer are radically different than any other style and I have found that it hasn't been difficult to market a complete new set of Corian signs in most cases.

My current marketing strategy is not just to make a sample sign but to design and fabricate an actual ADA door sign that includes the customers logo and color scheme. I mail the signs to their Architects Office or Purchasing Office with a letter describing the benefits of my design over my competition. I make sure and engrave my company information on the back of the sign, that way my contact information is never separated from the sign itself. If the potential customer doesn't need signs right now they most likely will in the future.

So everyone may benefit from this discussion please feel free to post your pictures, files or whatever you have concerning this topic. Discuss your designs and techniques plus the materials you use. Questions are certainly welcome, we will all learn something as this thread continues to grow.

I have attached three files, the first is a Corel Draw X3 drawing that has icons for Men, Women and a wheelchair graphic. Nothing special about these icons just thought that they might help someone who is just getting started. The two pictures are typical of the type of signs I make for CNU.

This is the link to the company I purchase braille balls from, they offer several colors and ship in small bottles that contain 11,000 balls.
http://www.brailleballs.com/order.asp
.

[Angus Hines]

I just noticed this on the site where you get your ballz. What do they mean? Isn't braille as public domain as our regular alphabet?


***NOTE***If Small Balls are used in the Edgerton method of Braille, a license is required.

And in a side question, Why do they require Braille on drive through ATM machines?:D

[Joe Pelonio]

I just noticed this on the site where you get your ballz. What do they mean? Isn't braille as public domain as our regular alphabet?

And in a side question, Why do they require Braille on drive through ATM machines?:D
Braille is public domain, but Edgerton had a patent on their method for inserting the balls into signs, using a vacuum pickup and insertion tool.

As for the braille on ATM machines, have you never seen a blind driver? I think I saw one on the way home this morning.

Seriously, the ATM machines are made for drive thru and walk up, to go in banks, stores and malls, so they are all made the same with braille regardless of where installed.

[Lonny Meeks]

Your signs look great!! Where did you get the braille font? I don't happen to have one in my arsenal of fonts.

Also, what part of your signs do you use the laser with and how are the signs attached?

What are your estimated selling price per sign?

Sorry for so many questions..

[Keith Outten]

Lonny,

There are plenty of places on the Net where you can download free Braille fonts. I have attached one for your convienience.

My Corian signs are first cut out on a ShopBot CNC router. The contor line around the plaque is machined on the router 1/8" deep with a 60 degree V-Bit. Then the sign blank is cut out with a 1/4" diameter spiral bit. When I started making door signs I cut them on my band saw. If you don't own a CNC router find someone in your local area and outsource your sign blank work to them.

Once the blanks are cut I route the edge on a router table with a roman ogee bit then I machine two keyholes on the back of the plaque for hanging. At this point if there is painting to do I mask the plaque with tape and paint the contour line, when the paint dries I use a random orbital sander to remove any paint on the surface. This step is done after engraving if there is a logo that has to be painted.

The blank is then laser engraved, the tactile text and Braille are engraved right at 0.031" deep. I laser cut the letters and numbers from 1/16" thick Rowmark ADA substrate plastic and glue them to the plaque with CA glue.

The price is reflective of the area that you live like any other product. In my area ADA door signs are in the 45 to 85 dollars per sign range depending on volume. My total material cost is just under $7.00 per sign. Although Corian is a more expensive substrate than other materials you find more frequently my man-hours per plaque is reduced due to the technique I use so I find Corian to be the least expensive in my case and far superior to acrylic door signs. I think the assembly procedure is easier as well, at least it seems that way to me. Another plus for Corian signs is how easy it is to engrave a customers logo into their signs, even logos with very fine detail are easy to do and often they make the sale. Routing the keyholes is possible because Corian is 1/2" thick and in areas that signs are prone to be removed by unauthorized people I use construction adhesive between the mounting screws and they can't be removed.

So...a building contract with 300 ADA door signs can be in the price range of 13,500 to 25,500 dollars. ADA work is also an area that has the least competition and your chances of winning contracts are much improved over other types of sign work.

.

[Angus Hines]

IS this font the class 2 braille??? or is it just basic braille? I have heard there's a difference, one meets ADA code and the others don't??

[Scott Shepherd]

Grade 2 is not a "font" so to speak, it's more of a language. Grade one is like typing each letter out, one by one, grade 2 is where contractions of common sounds and phrases are put together.

You cannot type in text and then just change the font to Braille. It doesn't work like that. You have to convert the text to the characters that will make up the grade 2 fonts. You have to do that with a program, or either you'll be spending hours converting it all over manually.

[Keith Outten]

Angus,

Scott is dead on concerning Grade II Braille. It isn't as difficult as you might think though, there is a program that is about 20 bucks that includes a Braille Interpreter but it is a bit clunky to use.

If you can convince our System Administrator Aaron Koehl to make his Corel Draw Braille script available the task is a snap. Aaron can use a public domain interpreter, free font and his script and all you have to do is type what you want and you have grade 2 Braille from the menu in Corel Draw.

I have asked Aaron several times to make it available...you may have better luck especially if you guys gang up on him :)

.

[Angus Hines]

OK I get it now one is just letters and the other is more like 'signing to the deaf'. Instead of using each letter you simply use expressions and simple motions.

Also, I just PM'D the Doctor hope he joins in here and shares.

[Lonny Meeks]

I had the same question Angus. I found this website that breaks down the letter combos and explains the grades - www.omniglot.com/writing/braille.htm. Also, thanks to Keith, if you do a Google search on Rowmark ADA substrate plastic, they provide some excellent info along with a couple of websites.

[Angus Hines]

Thanks Lonny I'll check those out.

[Keith Outten]

For those of you who are having problems figuring out how to implement grade 2 Braille and are hesitant to consider ADA work because it is confusing I totally understand how you feel. I went through the same thing a couple of years ago and it took me awhile to learn how to use Braille in my door sign designs. Early on my technique was horrible and time consuming so our System Administrator Aaron Koehl created a Corel Draw script that streamlined the process, in fact his script made Braille as easy as using any other font.

All you need is a Braille font, an interpreter to convert the braille font to grade 2 braille and Aaron's script that puts a Braille button on the Corel Draw menu bar and calls the interpreter whenever you need to insert grade 2 braille.

Visit this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=71731) for more information.

Aaron has finally agreed to make his braille script available in the next couple of days.
.

[Bill Griggs]

This is the link to the company I purchase braille balls from, they offer several colors and ship in small bottles that contain 11,000 balls.
http://www.brailleballs.com/order.asp

.

Keith,

Can you explain what Braille Balls are and how they are used?

Bill

[Joe Pelonio]

They are pesky little buggers that dance around on their own in a plastic bad from the static electricity. :D

When you next pass a newer braille sign, feel the braille and look closely. It's the ball that is inserted into the hole to make the raised dot the blind person uses to feel text. Most are acrylic though some are metal.

Keith's source, and McMaster Carr, sell them without having to get the license from the Raster (TM) people.

[Larry Bratton]

And today..I looked at some plans for a new school and the ADA signage was indicated as CAST POLYESTER RESIN-1/4" thick. Of course it indicated typical ADA tactile letters and braille. I was wondering if anyone was familiar with this material for signs and will my laser punch the holes for the braille in it. I am pretty sure the signage is in an allowance, so I am intending to send the architect and owner a sample of my solid surface signs and a letter similar to Keith. But, the question is about the polyester resin. Anyone?

[Larry Bratton]

Attached is a PDF that is from Accent Systems that is quite helpful explaining the different requirements for braille.

[Angus Hines]

Larry wouldn't one of the solid surface company's that use polyester instead of Acrylic...Be acceptable as a polyester resin base material?

[Larry Bratton]

Angus:
I am kind of at a loss about the polyester resin. I did some research and I did find a sign company or two that advertised it for outdoor signs. I looked further and found that Delvies Plastics sells it in liquid form intended to be poured in a mold. Maybe another product out there...? I have not read the specifications yet, only the information on the plans, so that's the next step. I will also call the architect next week to inquire about his intent and speak to him about the solid surface. I am going to make a sample over the weekend to send over to him. They are a large firm in Charlotte, NC , I have worked jobs that they did in the past. (Not sign jobs) .

I doubt the polyester inclusion in solid surface would satisfy it. Avonite in one of those products. I am told it does not come off the router as clean as 100% acrylic like Corian or LG HiMacs.

[Bob Cole]

I finished a stack of 10 signs and here is the method I use:

1. Design the sign in Corel. I used the Corel plugin for Braille. I have to say it works great and very quick to get the braille where it needs to be.
2. Cutout the template using cardstock. Will also use this step for the template for all the signs that can fit in the laser. I make sure I offset where the engraving will occur for Braille so the head doesn't have to travel so far without lasering.
3. Use the cutout for placement of the raised lettering for the signs (no raster).
4. Raster the braille. Settings took some time to figure out. I use one pass with paper still on acrylic 100pwr, 10spd, 500ppi (see second picture below for depth). I purchase my braille balls from McMaster-Carr 500 balls at a time, although the link that Keith posted above is less expensive.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#1383k41/=im7v6
5. I cut out raised lettering based on material. I purchase the 1/32 ADA alternative plastic from JP instead of purchasing the 1/16th and engraving 1/32 to get the required 1/32 height for raised lettering. I apply 3M467mp adhesive to the ADA plastic and cut reversed on the laser (sticky side up). Keeping your nails for removing the tape from the letters is helpful. I like Keiths way of just using glue/engrave instead of pieling the adhesive but for these signs any glue residue would be highly noticeable and my skills are not up to snuff.
6. Remove tape from sign and put paper template on sign and place raised letters in layout. I also use the paper layout to make sure I didn't goober in the design.
7. I painstakenly add the braille balls to the sign. I borrowed an idea from another post about applying braille balls with a security bit. The 100 piece security set ($4.99) from HarborFreight has a CR-V3/32 bit which seems to work the best. Use friction fit. Once the pressure is figured out, it goes pretty fast.

[Larry Bratton]

Bob:
Looks good!
Except I have a question. I just happened to have sign I made yesterday and just looking at the photo, it appears that your braille is different from mine. I too use Aaron's plug in. Did you by chance use all upper case letters for the translation? ADA requiires that the braille be in all lower case and the tactile text be all upper case. Aaron's plug in does not make that change. If you command it to translate the line that is selected, it will translate it as upper case. Otherwise you get it denoted as caps and that doesn't meet the spec. I manually type it in lower case and allow the placement below the selection.

Also, Bob, if this does prove to be the case, just looking at the translated braille, I think you can probably remove those first two balls at the front of the braille line and it will be correct. You should be able to repair those with solid surface adhesive and no one would be the wiser.

[Bob Cole]

I know about the lowercase/caps and went back to my file and sure enough, you are correct, I typed in all caps. What is interesting about this is I verified my braille ball placement with another sign at this facility and 2 other public websites making so-called ADA compliant signs. I checked the other signs I did and they are all lowercase braille.

I made two restoom signs and they are both like this one. Guess we will see if I get to remake these signs or not (I need more practice anyway):D

[Scott Shepherd]

ADA requiires that the braille be in all lower case and the tactile text be all upper case.

Larry, can you list the section of the code that calls for that? I haven't located it in my quick search of the code and I distinctly recall a phone conversation with the Department of Justice ADA rep where he told me that it didn't matter. I called about that about 1 1/2 years ago and I think Keith and I had a discussion on the forum about it as well.

The DOJ seemed more concerned that something was on there, rather than nothing. They seemed to note that they really didn't care and it wasn't specifically noted in the code, so that left it up to interpretation.

If you can point to the code, it would help, as it's a conflict with what I have been told by them.

Thanks!

[Larry Bratton]

Scott:
Refer to my post "Helpful ADA Info" that is a couple of days back. Page 2, 5th item down on the left. This is a PDF from Accent Systems..I would say they should know. I have made mine using this procedure for a long time.

Also, as you know, I own a license from Accent, so I kind of learned what I know from their manuals.

Here is a website that may be helpful also. It's a article on braille and how it is structured etc. If you look at the section that talks about contracted braille and you type in the phrase "you like him" in Aaron's plug in, in lower case, it matches identically the dot pattern as shown on this page.

http://www.afb.org/braillebug/braille_deciphering.asp

[Larry Bratton]

I know about the lowercase/caps and went back to my file and sure enough, you are correct, I typed in all caps. What is interesting about this is I verified my braille ball placement with another sign at this facility and 2 other public websites making so-called ADA compliant signs. I checked the other signs I did and they are all lowercase braille.

I made two restoom signs and they are both like this one. Guess we will see if I get to remake these signs or not (I need more practice anyway):D
Bob:
As I stated, I think you can repair those. That's one of the neat things about solid surface. It's relatively easy to make a blemish or scratch go away by using the intended adhesive and some careful sanding. Speaking of sanding, I know that Keith does his paint fill cleanup by sanding it away, thus he ends up with the requires matte (non-glare) finish. The Hi-Macs I am using, comes with matte on one side and polished on the other. For ADA I use the matte side. Since you didn't have any paint fill, how did you get to a matte finish?

Also, I guess people think I am nuts, but don't knock it until you have tried it. After I paint fill this stuff, I simply take a microfiber cloth and spray WD40 on it. I then proceed to simply rub off the excess paint. No sanding required.

As far as using the Rowmark applique goes, I do that too. However, I make my layout in Corel, apply a piece of applique (I use adhesive back) big enough for your tactile symbols and text to be covered, then simply vector cut it. I use the Epilog recommended settings for laserable plastic, then I just pull and weed out the excess. By the way, that setting is low enough to just kiss cut the applique and it won't even mark the solid surface. So, if you make a boo boo, just pull it off and start again (experience speaking there :)

[Scott Shepherd]

This is a PDF from Accent Systems..I would say they should know.

Funny, I thought the same thing about the Department of Justice that wrote the code ;)

[Scott Shepherd]

Just called the Department of Justice ADA hotline and spoke to them about it. There is no ADA standard on upper or lower case use of Braille characters and either can be used and is perfectly acceptable according to them.

So take that for whatever it's worth.

[Larry Bratton]

Just called the Department of Justice ADA hotline and spoke to them about it. There is no ADA standard on upper or lower case use of Braille characters and either can be used and is perfectly acceptable according to them.

So take that for whatever it's worth.
Scott:
Did you read the Info PDF I posted? I didn't call the Department of Justice. I just simply used what I consider to be a reliable source for information. So, should we call Accent and say to them...the D of J ADA hotline says you can change your document? Has this changed lately? I believe this information was up to date as the document was created in April of 2007. I will continue to make mine with lower case per the license I have and you continue to make yours per someone on the phone with the U.S. Government. Could you get that in writing from them and post it. Accent has posted that info in writing, so I'll ask them the source of their info and report back.

[Scott Shepherd]

Yes Larry, I did read the document, that's where the confusion came in and why I called the people who wrote the standard for us to follow. You are following a manual written by a private company, not the federal government. The standard you are following is correct, you can make it all lower case. I was simply noting that Bob's sign didn't need to be remade per the DOJ's instructions. If he wants to make it again because he believes the Accent standards trump the ADA standards, that's fine too, but I felt we all share in being educated on what the actual standard is versus what a private company says it is.

It is in writing already, in the ADA standards. In 4.30 of the code, along with in the appendix at A4.30.

My post wasn't to take a shot at you, but rather to post what the federal standards are, not private standards. Also, Accent speak a lot about a California code that's on top of the ADA standard. Perhaps the CA standard does call out for all lower case.

Bottom line, you can make the braille anything you want and it'll pass ADA standards.

[Scott Shepherd]

Here's the section :


4.30.4* Raised and Brailled Characters and Pictorial Symbol Signs (Pictograms). Letters and numerals shall be raised 1/32 in, upper case, sans serif or simple serif type and shall be accompanied with Grade 2 Braille. Raised characters shall be at least 5/8 in (16 mm) high, but no higher than 2 in (50 mm). Pictograms shall be accompanied by the equivalent verbal description placed directly below the pictogram. The border dimension of the pictogram shall be 6 in (152 mm) minimum in height.

A4.30.4 Raised and Brailled Characters and Pictorial Symbol Signs (Pictograms). The standard dimensions for literary Braille are as follows:

Dot diameter .059 in.
Inter-dot spacing .090 in.
Horizontal separation between cells .241 in.
Vertical separation between cells .395 in.

Raised borders around signs containing raised characters may make them confusing to read unless the border is set far away from the characters. Accessible signage with descriptive materials about public buildings, monuments, and objects of cultural interest may not provide sufficiently detailed and meaningful information. Interpretive guides, audio tape devices, or other methods may be more effective in presenting such information.In the words of the DOJ, the lack of any definition of lower or upper case needing to be used would leave it open to interpretation of the person making the sign. Neither would be wrong, since it is not specified in these sections.

Their words, not mine.

[Larry Bratton]

Scott:
Got to the bottom of what is going on. I talked with tech support at Accent and they are sending backup. Here's the deal.

The use of all lower case is required by Ansi 117.1-2003. This standard has been adopted by almost all the states and many municipalities as building code. It is in fact NOT FEDERAL LAW as of yet. However, Accent says in a short time it will be under the Obama Administrative. So, technically the Dept of Justice can make that statement at this time. However, in my state of SC, they have adopted Ansi 117.1 as the building code. So, enforcement is by state and local authority. He also stated that the sign industry as a whole, uses the Ansi standard to be on the safe side of it.

I'll post what he sends me via e-mail.

[Keith Outten]

Currently the rules are different in states that have adopted ANSI 117.1 and states that have not.

The original Code Of Federal Regulations is still the document of law in all states.

States that have not adopted ANSI 117.1 may have only the COFR to govern ADA Standards. The current COFR does not require upper case Braille letters. Tactile text must be all uppercase. Braille can be upper case, lower case or the first word Capitalized...it is up to you.

The guidelines you often hear people speak about have not been approved and therefore are not a legal requirement.

So, if you live in a state that has adopted ANSI 117.1 that is the document you must comply with along with the COFR.

If you live in a state that has not adopted ANSI 117.1 then the COFR is probably the only document in effect.

Note that the ANSI Standard is just that "A Standard".

State and local laws may be more restrictive than the Code of Federal Regulations but they must meet the minimum requirements of the COFR because it represents a Law passed by Congress.

A Code has precedence over a Specification or Standard.

Here is a link to 28 CFR Part 36 in PDf format...download this document if you fabricate ADA signs. Look at section 4.3 for information concerning signage.
http://www.ada.gov/adastd94.pdf

ANSI 117.1 requires Braille capital letters only be used before the first word of sentences, proper nouns and names, individual letters of the alphabet, initials or acronyms per section 703.5.4
.

[Larry Bratton]

Currently the rules are different in states that have adopted ANSI 117.1 and states that have not. The original COFR is still the document of law in states that have not adopted ANSI 117.1 and not the proposed guidelines you often hear people quote. The guidelines have not been approved and therefore are not a legal requirement.

So, if you live in a state that has adopted ANSI 117.1 that is the document you must comply with.

If you live in a state that has not adopted ANSI 117.1 then the COFR has precedence.
.
Correct. That is what Accent said. The guy from Accent sent me an e-mail of a topic on domed braille that was discussed in the Shopbot forum also. Has Virginia adopted ANSI 117.1?
According to Shevy Parasivam at Accent, 117 is soon to be Federal law under the new administration.

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks Larry, they does explain the difference in the two documents. I do not know if VA has adopted it yet. I looked around some and couldn't find anything on it in VA. I also couldn't find a free online resource for that standard either. Seems everyone wants to charge for a copy of the standard and no one's posting it online that I could find.

With the stuff I see, I seriously doubt VA has adopted it yet. If it has, then there are a truck load of inspectors that need to lose their jobs.

Thanks for finding out the info and posting it back here, it's one more piece of the puzzle for us all to understand.

[Bob Cole]

I looked around and it also looks like states and cities choose which parts they adopt.

[Larry Bratton]

Thanks Larry, they does explain the difference in the two documents. I do not know if VA has adopted it yet. I looked around some and couldn't find anything on it in VA. I also couldn't find a free online resource for that standard either. Seems everyone wants to charge for a copy of the standard and no one's posting it online that I could find.

With the stuff I see, I seriously doubt VA has adopted it yet. If it has, then there are a truck load of inspectors that need to lose their jobs.

Thanks for finding out the info and posting it back here, it's one more piece of the puzzle for us all to understand.
Scott:
ANSI 117.1 is usually incorporated in the IBC (International Building Code). I am pretty sure that Virginia uses this code as their standard. You might call the local building inspection dept in Richmond and they can tell you right off the bat which they use. They can also tell you if they enforce ANSI 117.1 2003 as part of that building code. All of this stuff is pretty confusing to folks that are not in the building industry per se.

However, who is going to say that your braille is right or wrong unless it's a braille reading blind person or a really picky building official. But, it is proven (by my observation in Bob's sign) that it can be spotted by a sighted person that has a little knowledge of what it's supposed to look like. If they really got serious about enforcement, you might see inspectors going around with Duxbury translators on their laptop computers. I would not be surprised. Remember, a while back, I got nailed on a swimming pool sign that had 1/8" discrepency in a letter height.

[Larry Bratton]

More information I received from Accent. For everyone's information.
I can't post the attachments he sent. My software won't open them. But anyway this is helpful. Main thing is that according to this, ANSI 117 is going to become law pretty soon now. See article #4

1)Any state using IBC (International Building Code) 2003 or later
requires ANSI 117. When a state has adopted either ANSI 117 standards or
the 2003 or later IBC code then these are no longer just "standards" or
guidelines--they are law in that state.

2)In addition any city or county may adopt a building code that requires
ANSI 117 regardless of whether the state uses it, since ANSI 117 is
stricter than the 1993 code.

3)Also, most federal agency buildings require ANSI 117. The US Postal
Service and GSA were both early adopters of ANSI 117. If you make ADA
signs for a federal agency you will most likely be following ANSI 117.

4) The DOJ (Department of Justice) has already completed the review and
approval process for ANSI 117 and the period for public comment has
expired. It only remains for Obama to sign into law. No obstacles remain
for this to become the law of the land this year.

ANSI 117 requires rounded dome-shaped Braille and lower case Braille.
This makes the Braille easier to read for the visually-impaired and was
the reason for these changes in the law. Braille is only capitalized
under ANSI 117 for proper names or nouns or place names, etc., that
might be capitalized in a written letter's text. Raised tactile
lettering however must still be all upper-case according to both ANSI
117 and the old 1993 ADAAG law.

Please SEE ATTACHED files for a list of contacts/phone numbers for each
state for answers to which building code applies. The ANSI 117 is legal
in all states and that is why most ADA sign companies in the US, just
use the ANSI 117 to avoid all the complicated questions of which state
is using which law. California is the exception. California has it's
own unique set of ADA laws called Title 24, which use Braille with wider
spacing and different Restroom signs than those used in the rest of the
49 states.


Shevy Parasivam
ADA Raster(tm) Braille Product Consultant

Also, per Shevy here is a list of states that have adopted ANSI 117.1
1. Alabama
2. Arkansas
3. California
4. Connecticut
5. Idaho
6. Illinois
7. Indiana
8. Louisiana
9. Massachusetts
10. Michigan
11. New Hampshire
12. New Jersey
13. New Mexico
14. New York
15. Oklahoma
16. Pennsylvania
17. Rhode Island
18. South Carolina
19. Tennessee
20. Texas
21. Washington
22. Wisconsin

[Scott Shepherd]

No Virginia, YEAHHHHHH!

Thanks Larry, I appreciate all the effort on this to bring us all up to speed.

[Todd Seman]

Reference to the capitalization of braille can be found in the "ADA and ABA Accessibility Guidelines" , Section 703.3.1. found here -

http://www.access-board.gov/ada-aba/index.htm

FWIW,
Todd

[Scott Shepherd]

Reference to the capitalization of braille can be found in the "ADA and ABA Accessibility Guidelines" , Section 703.3.1. found here -

http://www.access-board.gov/ada-aba/index.htm

FWIW,
Todd

FWIW here's the standard from that code:


703.3.1 Dimensions and Capitalization. Braille dots shall have a domed or rounded shape and shall comply with Table 703.3.1. The indication of an uppercase letter or letters shall only be used before the first word of sentences, proper nouns and names, individual letters of the alphabet, initials, and acronyms.

[Larry Bratton]

No Virginia, YEAHHHHHH!

Thanks Larry, I appreciate all the effort on this to bring us all up to speed.
Yet, but it's coming.

[Scott Shepherd]

Bring it on! I'll be rich once they move that standard into VA and enforce it, since not even the government buildings have ADA compliant signs NOW!

Bring it on. All I need to do is unlock that caps button and we're all set ;)

[Larry Bratton]

Bring it on! I'll be rich once they move that standard into VA and enforce it, since not even the government buildings have ADA compliant signs NOW!

Bring it on. All I need to do is unlock that caps button and we're all set ;)
Hehehe..yep! When it becomes law, that's a whole new can of worms. According to Shevy at Accent, all it lacks is signature. All of us can use this legislation to our advantage. That would certainly amount to a "stimulus" to me.

[Keith Outten]

Scott,

According to my supervisor Virginia adopts/updates to the latest codes and standards every three years. The last time was in 2006 so we are very close to making the change. Projects that have already started are grandfathered to the codes and srtandards in effect when they started. Check the project dates for any job you win because you will be expected to comply with the older specifications even after the new laws take effect. So, even a couple of years from now you could be making signs that are not ANSI 117.1 compliant. Older buildings are also grandfathered to the specs they were built to except when major renovations or new additions are involved.

Never assume that because you are doing a job today that you must comply with the current specs and codes. The right answer is that you are supposed to use the codes in place when the building or projects were designed. Unless the customer waives the original building codes and decides to use the current codes which they can do but it is rarely beneficial.
.

[Scott Shepherd]

That's interesting to know as well Keith. The DOJ tells me that there is no grandfathering on any signs. How's that fit in with what you are being told? Different? The same? I'm getting an ice cream headache......

[Larry Bratton]

Well why not just go ahead and make them to the latest code? That would certainly be more stringent and you would be on the safe side. The issue of lower case braille is certainly easy to accomplish and be within the guidelines either way.

[Keith Outten]

Scott,

I think their wrong. Once we have a contract in place at CNU for a large commercial building it is a done deal. We can't change the specs, if we do the contractor has every right to change his quote. This applies to every aspect of a new building project.

Imagine that we wanted to replace an HVAC system or a boiler on a twenty year old building. We would stick to the original building specs, the current specs are starting to implement all the "Green" features and the price is going up considerably.

Consider that you get a call and a customer needs two signs for a thirty year old building, they want the new signs you make to match their existing signs. They have every right to stick with their original specifications. If the customer is adding a new wing to a Hospital lets say, then they must comply with the current codes. Here in Hampton Roads we have some very old buildings that have signs with no braille and no tactile text, you surely have some in Richmond which is almost as old as the City of Hampton :)

Larry,

Personally I don't have a preference concerning which code, heck I like them all the same :) I do have a preference when it comes to customer satisfaction though so if a customer wants new signs to match their existing signs and it is legal that is what I would provide.


We have a nuclear power plant in Virginia built in the early 1970's. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has tried to get our Electrical company to update to the latest Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code but it ain't ever gonna happen. It would be crazy to change from the code you built anything to, you would forced to spend whatever it takes to comply with the current regulations.
.

[Larry Bratton]

Scott,

I think their wrong. Once we have a contract in place at CNU for a large commercial building it is a done deal. We can't change the specs, if we do the contractor has every right to change his quote. This applies to every aspect of a new building project.

Imagine that we wanted to replace an HVAC system or a boiler on a twenty year old building. We would stick to the original building specs, the current specs are starting to implement all the "Green" features and the price is going up considerably.

Consider that you get a call and a customer needs two signs for a thirty year old building, they want the new signs you make to match their existing signs. They have every right to stick with their original specifications. If the customer is adding a new wing to a Hospital lets say, then they must comply with the current codes. Here in Hampton Roads we have some very old buildings that have signs with no braille and no tactile text, you surely have some in Richmond which is almost as old as the City of Hampton :)

Larry,

Personally I don't have a preference concerning which code, heck I like them all the same :) I do have a preference when it comes to customer satisfaction though so if a customer wants new signs to match their existing signs and it is legal that is what I would provide.


We have a nuclear power plant in Virginia built in the early 1970's. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has tried to get our Electrical company to update to the latest Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code but it ain't ever gonna happen. It would be crazy to change from the code you built anything to, you would forced to spend whatever it takes to comply with the current regulations.
.
Keith:
Me either. In all the years I worked on construction projects, I didn't consider my job to be a code policeman. I usually tried to follow what the architect had specified, and it usually worked out. However, if the architect made a mistake, and that happened more than once, then the GC usually did not hold me, as a sub, financially responsible for his error. I remember a recent instance where the architect drew the wrong size handicapped grab bars in HC bathrooms. I replaced them, but the GC paid me for them. I was not in the design business. Not to say, that if we caught an error, we wouldn't address it, we always did, but we didn't do stringent review. This goes to giving the customer what he needed to get inspections off and sell the building.

[Scott Shepherd]

Guys, I'm only the messenger. Pick up the phone and call the DOJ and see if they tell you something different than what they are telling me. I had a very specific conversation about 6 months ago with them and I specifically asked how to handle a situation where a building was 30 years old and they needed one sign replaced. I was told in no uncertain terms that there was no grandfather clause and that every single building in the USA fell under the ADA requirements no matter when they were built and in the case of a 30 year old building, if their signs were not ADA compliant, then they would need to change the signs. ADA is a law, and there is no grandfather clause in the law is what I was told.

I certainly encourage someone else to call them since I seem to be in opposition to everyone on this thread. I'm only going by what I'm told by the DOJ. I hope someone else will spent 10 minutes with them on the phone (ada.gov) and report their conversations back here as well. I don't have a lot of confidence that they have a consistent message.

[Andrew Jordan]

you've mentioned ADA a thousand times...what the heck is an ADA?

Andrew

[Angus Hines]

Well since I live with in 10 miles of said Nuclear Plant....Thanks for the warm fuzzie Keith.....:eek:


Scott,

We have a nuclear power plant in Virginia built in the early 1970's. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has tried to get our Electrical company to update to the latest Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code but it ain't ever gonna happen. It would be crazy to change from the code you built anything to, you would forced to spend whatever it takes to comply with the current regulations.
.

[Larry Bratton]

Andrew:
ADA is short for Americans (with) Disabilities Act. It was passed into law back in George H. Bushes administration and has been changed several times since then. Signs made for buildings in public use must comply with the rules laid down by this or one is subject to a civil action by a disabled person not being afforded the accomodations provided for in the law. We, as makers of these type signs have to be aware of the rules and follow them to the letter, lest we also become liable.

[Keith Outten]

Angus,

I worked for Vepco at Surry during the Steam Generator Replacement project, the next time I see you I'll tell you some stories that will make you want to move :)

My point concerning making changes to an existing contract such as requiring the contractor to comply with code changes after the contract is signed is that it will often require a change in the scope of work and the contractors price. The Federal Government is very powerful but they aren't that powerful, if they tried to enforce such a rule every large project would stop. Customers couldn't budget for any projects since they would not have any idea how much they would cost.

The last power plant I worked on cost over 7 Billion dollars, imagine the Federal Government mandating code changes during such a large project and the impact it could have to the job costs. At CNU the new facilities we have been building over the last eight years have been in the 20 to 60 million dollar range. Even a small change to a project specification could be very costly. We don't change any contract documents after the contracts are signed.
.

[Andrew Jordan]

Thanks for letting me know, Larry! As a Canuck, I'd never heard of ADA signs before!

Andrew