How would you create this baseboard profile?

[jeff begin]

http://www.crownmoldingshop.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/BA1065_large.jpg

I'm an utter woodworking newbie when it comes to anything but rough framing a wall. I'm looking to get my feet wet and wanted to try installing some molding in my house.

I really like the profile above, but the place wants $50 for 8' of it in poplar! :eek: I figure it wouldn't be too difficult to make it myself for much cheaper if I can find the correct router bit. I've been browsing around online and didn't have much luck finding a matching profile. My questions are:

1) Am I correct in assuming that it's as simple to make as running the stock past a router? I don't understand the outrageous cost of buying it premade if it's that easy.

2) How to I make the profile I want? Do I have to keep looking for the right bit, or is it more common to use multiple passes with several different bits to get the desired cut?

Thanks!

[Richard Hughes]

Have you thought about doing this with 2 separate pieces. Your local lumber yard may have stock pieces that will do it.

Rick

[glenn bradley]

Richard hit on what I was thinking; can you stack parts to make this? Will it be painted? As far as multiple passes to create a profile, yes, home shop folks do that all the time. Stacking parts for a profile that tall would be easier. Now as to when you are all said and done; Bits, electricity, time, etc. . . . will it be MUCH cheaper that $6 a foot, I am not so sure.

[brett gallmeyer]

I run a custom molding machine at my work. I grind all the knives for custom profiles. I know that we charge $50 just for setting up the machine. if a profile needs to be ground to make this, i would expect thats where most of the price is comming from.

[Richard Wolf]

That's a common profile. If you are looking at poplar, I assume you are going to paint the molding. MDF molding in that profile is availble for much cheaper than poplar. Making something to save money seldom works out like you think.

Richard

[Jim Becker]

Given the size, that's really not a "router bit" problem. You'd need to cut that with a molder or work with multiple pieces. But as Richard says, it's a common profile, so shop around a bit.

[Peter Quinn]

I do this for a living in a commercial setting, and I can tell you it is not as easy as you may think. In my well equipped small shop it would still be a PIA to produce any quantity of this with just a router table, but I have done things similar. Basically you would have to make a three piece base mold and nail in each of the three rather than run a single complex molding. I see no accurate, safe and efficient way to do this molding as it exists with a router in one piece.

A few more details would be helpful. Paint grade or stain grade, and if stain grade what species. And how many lineal feet are you buying or making?

For the one piece casing as shown you are better off paying the price to have it run if it is more than a limited amount or if the runs required are longer than say 8'. It gets fairly difficult to make moldings on a router table of any length without excessive chatter that would be difficult or nearly impossible to sand out. A proper molding from a professional will leave the molder ready to paint with minimal sanding and come in 14'-16' lengths to minimize scarf joints. Do you enjoy sanding? You say you are a newbie? You will need several router bits one of which is some what expensive, a very good router table and a serious table saw at minimum, and you will need access to good 3/4" S4S or the ability to make it. Most good millwork shops can supply S4S, DO NOT COUNT ON THAT JUNK FROM THE BORG FOR MILLWORK.

In any event you could break this casing down into three parts that could be accomplished with a router table and proper infeed / outfeed support over some length. From the floor, you have a 4 1/2" base mold with an ogee that would require a rabbit on its top to accept a 1/2"X1" filler piece to be topped with a 1 3/8" base cap. The base mold can be made with a basic ogee bit (freud makes a great one for wainscot that would work perfectly) and the rabbit can be made with a straight bit. The filler strip can even be 1/2" mdf or poplar planed to 1/2" and ripped to 1" width.

The base cap (the top 1 3/8") will be the most challenging part. They make router bits for this molding, check CMT, Freud, Eagle America, Infinity or Amana, I'm pretty sure one or more of them sell this. You will have to run it on the router table from 6/4" stock at least 3-4" wide in several passes, then rip the finished molding off on the TS, rejoint, and run again. I'd suggest molding both edges then ripping and jointing each time. You can also create a rabbit on the bottom of the base cap to accept the middle filler strip in a more seamless manner, or simply but it on top if you choose.

I could write pages to describe exactly how to do this, but in short you will need good hold downs and feather boards or a power feeder on both TS and router, very good and long stock support on both ends, and DUST/CHIP collection, because making moldings makes a ton of chips and dust.

I do short runs of smaller moldings regularly at work using a shaper for customers that don't want to pay the setup charge for the large one piece moldings made on the 7 Head molder. Short of buying the one piece molding I think your best bet would be to create the molding from stock moldings. All of those elements are for sale at the Borg fairly cheap.

For paint grade, You could buy a standard 9/16"X 4 1/2" base mold and attach a 1/4" MDF or plywood backer (or maybe 3/8?) to give the necessary depth, on top of that add a 1/2"X1" filler strip of MDF, then top it off with a standard 11/16" X 1 3/8" base cap or panel mold. Make sense? Probably cost a bit less per LF than the custom molding. You might even be able to buy just the base cap and make the base mold your self.

Good luck. I'm not trying to discourage you but make you aware that it can be both challenging and dangerous if not handled correctly.

[Jason White]

If you can find a friend with a Williams & Hussey machine (or a fellow Creeker with one), you can pay a couple of hundred bucks for a custom knife. Just trace the profile onto a piece of paper and fax it to W&H and they'll send you a pair of knives that fit the profile. Then you can run 8 feet or 8,000 feet. You might even be able to make the knives yourself by grinding some steel. I've seen some contractors do it that way.

Jason


http://www.crownmoldingshop.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/BA1065_large.jpg

I'm an utter woodworking newbie when it comes to anything but rough framing a wall. I'm looking to get my feet wet and wanted to try installing some molding in my house.

I really like the profile above, but the place wants $50 for 8' of it in poplar! :eek: I figure it wouldn't be too difficult to make it myself for much cheaper if I can find the correct router bit. I've been browsing around online and didn't have much luck finding a matching profile. My questions are:

1) Am I correct in assuming that it's as simple to make as running the stock past a router? I don't understand the outrageous cost of buying it premade if it's that easy.

2) How to I make the profile I want? Do I have to keep looking for the right bit, or is it more common to use multiple passes with several different bits to get the desired cut?

Thanks!

[David DeCristoforo]

I'm not a big fan of telling people not to attempt things. But I really don't think six bucks a running foot for a custom moulding run of only 50' would be too much. There is no way you are making this for less if you have to buy any bits, regardless of how many moldings you stack to get the full profile. If you can find the exact profile "off the shelf" it will probably be cheaper but a seven inch tall base is still gotta be at least five bucks a foot.

[jeff begin]

Wow. Thanks for the abundance of replies.

I figured it wasn't as simple as it first seemed. I'd need around 400-500 feet of it, which is why I was turned off by the retail cost. I was initially planning to paint it (hence poplar), but am also considering a stain. Doing a multipart piece would work with paint, I'm not so sure about how it would look with stain though. I'll have to some more thinking/deciding.

[Karl Brogger]

Figure it this way. If you need 450 linear ft of the trim, you'll use 263 bd/ft of material to make that much base. Not figuring waste, which you can figure at roughly 15%, so you'll need 300 bd/ft. You'll have to buy alot of material to get enough 7"+ wide pieces to get sizes you need.

Buy it, its easier and cheaper.

[Steve Jenkins]

In your post you said that they wanted 50 bucks for an 8'piece. did you tell them that you want 400-500 feet? If not I bet the price will be quite a bit different.

[Don Bullock]

I've seen that molding or something very close to it for less that $6.00/ft. in oak at a "high priced" hardwood store. You should be able to find it for less. As Richard, one of our best experts here at the Creek said, it is a common profile and wouldn't be worth trying to duplicate it.

[Bill Houghton]

made up of channel rustic siding (that's the local term - don't know if it's universal - the kind of siding Victorian houses have) with upside down picture molding on top. We ran the picture mold over the router table to establish a clean rabbet to fit on top of the siding, but that may have been unnecessary fussiness - you can't see the joint unless you're a small child, lying on your stomach.

[Neal Clayton]

Wow. Thanks for the abundance of replies.

I figured it wasn't as simple as it first seemed. I'd need around 400-500 feet of it, which is why I was turned off by the retail cost. I was initially planning to paint it (hence poplar), but am also considering a stain. Doing a multipart piece would work with paint, I'm not so sure about how it would look with stain though. I'll have to some more thinking/deciding.

the problem is there's no way to square a 16 foot board. there's also no way to safely/effectively hand feed it. for molding operations that cut with gang rip saws and power fed molders this isn't a problem, the pressure/feed rollers on the machine take care of twist and bow and ensure a consistent cut. feeding by hand just can't be done unless you have perfectly square 16 foot blanks (not gonna happen) or if you wanna make short lengths (lot of joints, won't look very good).

plus, starting from rough lumber, molding is a high waste operation. by the time you square the edges on a twisted board, plane it to thickness, cut half of it away with the molding knives, and then run it through a mop sander after, you have a pile of sawdust as big as your pile of molding. that's why molding costs so much.

not saying it can't be done, but it won't be done well with a router. a lot of folks around here seem to be using the shop fox W&H knockoff molder with good results. that would probably be the most cost effective means of doing it yourself (but you'd still have to pay your local mill to produce your blanks unless you wanted to use short lengths).

[Wayne Cannon]

It looks like you might be able to do the flat groove and lower ogee with the board flat on the table with a bottom-cutting dado bit (like a core box bit) and a plunge-cutting ogee bit. That would allow you to come closer to replicating the top two profiles with the board on edge using standard (and shorter) bits.

Example plunge-cut ogee bit:
http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/sr.cgi?1227457732_30046+50

[Larry Rasmussen]

My reference point is strickly amatuer. I had worked a couple of side jobs framing and lugging plywood at the time I tackled the moulding. If you want 4-500 feet of this stuff it is worth thinking about and comparing costs/techniques. For me this was 20+ yrs ago and there was a new baby on the way so we decided to add an addition to the cabin. There was lots of blow down hemlock in the local yards after the Mount Saint Helens eruptions so they sold me hemlock, I couldn't have picked out oak from pine back then.

I probably only made 1-200 feet. Used a 3/4 hp Sears shaper and a couple different patterns for two passes. The project was a success for the standard looking short moulding I made and stained.

So I didn't log on to give a history lesson. What I learned then was the difference between conception and finished product. Running that stuff through the tiny shaper and sanding the rough spots probably took 10 times longer than I pictured and there isn't an interesting moment in it after you figure out the set up. I've since learned to:

1. Assess the walls. Straight, kind of straight, or snake canyon? I'm still suprised at how a crooked/uneven wall gets shown up by new baseboard and how dang unwilling that stuff is to follow it.

2. If it looks straight enough to tackle remember the relief cuts on the back of the moulding.

3. Can you do a test room? Do you have a back bedroom or self contained area? You may find that you decide on subtle or not so subtle changes in design after the first run.

4. Can or would you want to do the "room of the month" plan? Maybe you could do sections. Cutting the work up into smaller projects might let you use a router table rather than invest in a moulder or custom knives. Heresy here- I think the rule on the forum is you can never have too many tools and I am drooling over the shop fox moulder being closed out at Grizzly.com. Another thing about smaller chunks of work is that maybe you could afford to upgrade the material if you wanted to go stain grade.

5. Consider paint grade in bedrooms and back rooms and an upgrade to stain in the entry and areas you want show off.

6. You have lots of good specific ideas here including the very sensible thought to do the mouldling in two or three stacked pieces.

Luck on the project-

Larry Rasmussen,
Seattle

[Peter Quinn]

The problem with the ogee plunge bit Wayne referenced is its not really the same orientation used on a base mold. Check out something like the freud wainscot bit (http://www.freudtools.com/p-124-reversible-wainscoting-bit.aspx) which could be used to make a separate basemold for a three piece casing, or the amana base mold bit (http://www.amanatool.com/bits-fv/54299.html), which can add that profile to a one piece casing in the middle of its field. You would probably do well to make the step between the the base and top cap first using a down shear mortising bit (no bearing type) like this amana (http://www.amanatool.com/bits-fv/45500.html). Freud makes this bit to cut the classic base cap on a router (http://www.freudtools.com/p-206-base-and-cap-bits.aspx). which would require either a very tall fence or a horizontal router table set up.

I think the 'could' aspect of the casing you posted can be handled with the above bits. Yes you 'could' make this with a router in a table, possibly even the right Eureka Zone guided setup. Thinking about the number of set ups required and the investment in tools, bits and time certainly adds doubt to the 'should' aspect of the question. It might be a wiser investment if you enjoy making moldings to buy a shop fox mini molder while they are blowing them out and get a custom knife for your casing, order 3/4"X 7" S4S, and mill away. Much less work doing it that way.

Don't know if any of these ideas are going to save you any money, even on 500LF of casing, but the shop fox machine has many uses should your needs and interest extend beyond this particular project.

[Charles McCracken]

Jeff,

If you want to get close to that profile you can use this for the top:

http://www.freudtools.com/images/product/large/206.jpg

And maybe the 99-004 for the middle:
http://www.freudtools.com/images/PRODUCT/medium/138.jpg

http://www.freudtools.com/images/product/standeartodet.jpg

[Jimmy Williams]

Why not use a stacked dado in the table saw to get the middle groove and then you could use a regular ogee bit (with bearing) in a router to rout the lower profile? Then use the bit (or similar one) that Charles McCraken posted.

At least, that is how I would do it.

[Jim Becker]

Why not use a stacked dado in the table saw to get the middle groove and then you could use a regular ogee bit (with bearing) in a router to rout the lower profile? Then use the bit (or similar one) that Charles McCraken posted.

At least, that is how I would do it.

I think the OP is talking about many hundreds of feet of this stuff...I'm in agreement with many of the other posters. Not the best job to do without a molder and probably more economical to buy when time, etc., is added to the cost.

[BOB OLINGER]

Jeff,

You need to find someone with a moulding machine or shop that will custom mould this. This is too complicated for a router set up - my opinion. Where are you located? Maybe a nearby creeker can help.

[Brad Shipton]

Jeff: I have done this. If you dont have any desire for a shop full of really nice tools, then I would suggest you buy the pieces. If you dont like this price, find a moulder operation and request a quote. I did so not long ago and was surprised at the cost difference.

If you do decide to build yourself, read the production fellows posts very carefully again. Keep in mind, any jiggle of the stock while cutting results in a blip you will most likely get to take out with sandpaper attached to a reverse profile moulding of the shape. I would also suggest that you make this profile in two pieces. 3/4" stock will not flex to your walls like more of the traditional pieces and scribing is time consuming. I would make the top profile slightly wider to accomodate wall variances and not leave an unsigthly trim. If your floors are not perfect you might end up thinking about a shoe moulding too.

Good luck.
Brad