Bench top Wood movement/chipout repair questions

[alex grams]

A few questions in regards to some things i am coming across in my workbench build.

1. The end caps and wood movement. The top is the usual side grain stacked 2.5" thick maple top. I am going to put a large front vise on one end. I am going to have skirting around the top, and then use the skirt on the end as one of the jaws. However, in terms of wood movement, what is the best way to secure the end jaw/skirt? I've seen everything from glue to bolts to glue w/ bolts to dovetails. I think some glue to hold it with a few 1/2"x3" lag bolts into the top would be best. One bolt into each of the abutting skirts and one in the middle of the jaw/skirt? Though I have seen just two bolts into the table top with just glue to hold the joint at the skirts.

suggestions?

2. I had a piece of the top chip out on the top edge. About 2" long by about 1/8" deep by 1/8" wide. When I put the final skirts on the outside of the top that chipout will be there. Thoughts on covering/filling? Just fill it with glue when I put the skirts on and then smooth the glue even with the top? If it were close to a corner I would smooth the tearout and glue a small piece of maple there and then trim the new piece of maple with the old top, but it is dang near center length of the top.

3. I have the LV quick release front vises (1 large, 1 regular size) I am using on the bench. What recommended depth do yall suggest for the jaws to sit wood in? LV says 2" and 2.5" for for the regular and large sizes, respectively. Though those seem shallow to me. Though the larger vise would need a 5.5" tall jaw to have a 2.5" opening as recommended.

Thanks in advance for the input.

[Dave Anderson NH]

While it will be a small amount of work it fix, you should really glue in a patch in the spot where it tore out. Otherwise you are going to look at it every time you use the bench in the years ahead and it will gnaw at you.

[Alex Shanku]

Just to quickly address part of your thread, I used lag bolts with oversized holes. I also cut a shoulder on the end grain of the bench, and a corresponding shoulder on the skirt.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Bench2.jpg

[Richard Magbanua]

Good question Alex G. and nice bench Alex S.!
I'm finishing the top to my Roubo/Schwarz bench and I'm thinking about putting on an end cap as well mostly to support the wagon vise. With the lag bolt option, did you just place the nuts inside the top in a mortise? I was wondering if long lag screws would be strong enough with the appropriate pilot hole.

[Hank Knight]

Alex,

I used end caps on my maple bench top. They were mortised and attached with a long tenon cut on the end of the bench top. I attached them with these bed bolts from Lee Valley: http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=40445&cat=3,40842,41269&ap=1.
When I attached my twin screw rear vise jaw to the end cap, I just replaced the origianal bed bolts with longer ones to accommodate the thickness of the vise jaw. I elongated the holes for wood movement and countersunk the heads. With bed bolts, there's no worry about stripping the threads out with lag bolts.

Hank

[alex grams]

Hank/Alex. How did each of you cut the slot mortise/tenon on the benchtop and end cap? Router on the tenon on the tabletop and tablesaw on the tenon on the end cap? I would like to do that joint, just have to be careful to do it right so i don't mess up the end of the table.

[Hank Knight]

Alex,

I used the method described in the Fortune-Nelson bench chapter in Scott Landis' The Workbench Book. I marked off the tenon and roughed it out with multiple cuts with a circular (Skill) saw. It was a disaster. It took me hours and hours with a shoulder plane and chisels to get the tenon and the shoulder in decent shape. The mortise was a piece of cake. Cut it with a router. It I ever do it again (not likely) I'll cut the tenon with a router and a pattern bit. I've used the router/pattern bit method since I built my bench. It's easy as pie and leaves a nice, clean shoulder. Here's a photo of my mortised and tenoned end cap:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/hankknight/DSC_X003cropSmall.jpg

And the end cap with the Veritas Twin Screw vise attached:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f343/hankknight/IMG_5228small.jpg

Hank

[alex grams]

Nice dovetails. Thanks for the info. I have the Landis book, so will need to dig that section out.

Yeah the circular saw was a mess for me too in squaring the end of my bench.

Where did you get those levelers? I am looking at some heavier duty levelers for my bench.

[Eric DeSilva]

Nice looking bench...

Are those pics the two ends of the same bench? You dovetailed one and used M&T on the other? I'm curious as to why--is there a reason not to use M&T on the vise end?

Also, if I'm understanding the wood movement issue right, the benchtop is going to expand and contract more than the skirt, which is long grain to cross grain. Did you leave lateral play in the mortise in the end cap to accommodate that? Or is that not an issue for some reason? If you did, how much did you leave on a bench that size?

I keep following these workbench threads since I do ultimately want to build one...

[Alex Shanku]

Hank/Alex. How did each of you cut the slot mortise/tenon on the benchtop and end cap? Router on the tenon on the tabletop and tablesaw on the tenon on the end cap? I would like to do that joint, just have to be careful to do it right so i don't mess up the end of the table.


Hey Alex,

My method was pretty simple. I made sure the end of my bench was flat and square to the top, then using a straight edge and a router equiped with a 1/2" straight cutting bit, I made small passes eventually cutting a 1/4" wide x 1" deep rabbit. I used other methods to cut a 1/4" x 3" rabbit in the end cap. This was mainly to give it support. The lags are just there to hold it tight.

[Doug Shepard]

...
2. I had a piece of the top chip out on the top edge. About 2" long by about 1/8" deep by 1/8" wide. When I put the final skirts on the outside of the top that chipout will be there. Thoughts on covering/filling? ...

Do you still have it or can you find it? I've spent upwards of 1/2 hour searching the floor for such torn out pieces. If you can find it just glue it back on. You'll never get a better match.

[glenn bradley]

1. My aprons are glued only.
2. Epoxy, its a bench.
3. I haven't added my LV vises yet but my current HF jaws are 3-1/2" from screws to the top of the jaw.

[Jim Becker]

If you want to get fancy, you could use the same technique that's commonly employed to adhere moldings on casework where there is a cross-grain situation...glue at the "front" and a sliding dovetail on short dovetail shaped buttons. Otherwise, lags in slots/oversize holes, either open like the "other" Alex shows or plugged after assembly would be what I would do. Like a breadboard end on a table, there may be some exposure during the "expansive" seasons for your area, but that shouldn't be an issue as long as the expansion is away from where you typically use the apron for supporting material.

[Hank Knight]

Where did you get those levelers? I am looking at some heavier duty levelers for my bench.

Alex,

I ordered the levelers (bench feet) from MSC Industrial Supply. They are heay duty machine levelers. I had the steel leg caps fabricated by a local machine shop. If you search "levelers" on this forum, you'll find several threads where I desribed how the levelers were made and how they function. I've been very happy with them.

Hank

[Hank Knight]

Nice looking bench...

Are those pics the two ends of the same bench? You dovetailed one and used M&T on the other? I'm curious as to why--is there a reason not to use M&T on the vise end?

Also, if I'm understanding the wood movement issue right, the benchtop is going to expand and contract more than the skirt, which is long grain to cross grain. Did you leave lateral play in the mortise in the end cap to accommodate that? Or is that not an issue for some reason? If you did, how much did you leave on a bench that size?

I keep following these workbench threads since I do ultimately want to build one...


Eric,

The photos are of the same end of my bench. I made the bench with end caps mortised and tenoned to the end of the bench top (1st pic). I added the Twin screw vise later (2nd pic). There was not enough room for the vise screws if I mortised the rear jaw directly to the bench top, I.E., I would have had to cut a channel for the screws through the top end strecher of my base, so I bolted it through the end cap to the bench top by replacing the bolts I used for the end cap with longer ones.

The front apron is dovetailed to the end cap. The end cap is not glued to the bench top anywhere except the apron dovetails; it's bolted to the bench top with bed 3/8" bed bolts. The mortise in the end cap is about 1/4" to 3/8" longer than the tenon to allow for movement of the top. I've used the bench for 3 years and I've noticed, at most, about 1/8" seasonal movement of the top. It's is in an heated and air conditioned shop, so it doesn't suffer from wide humidity swings.

Hank

[David Keller NC]

Alex - I just finished building a small bench for a confined space, and while I didn't use a skirt (it's more of Chris Schwarz design with the legs directly attached to the top and flush with the front), I did use two end caps.

I wanted to build the bench relatively quickly, and cosmetic considerations were low on the totem pole, so I chose to fit the two end-caps to the ends of the bench with a low-angle block plane, and then drilled through the end-cap into the end of the bench and bolted it with 3 lag screws. I used 3/8" lags, and the front hole was drilled with a bit that allowed just the shaft of the bolt to slide through, but I drilled the center and back holes with a 1/4" oversize drill bit to allow for wood movement.

This might be a bit of dilemma for you if you're going to fit a skirt all the way around the perimeter of the bench, as something's got to move to allow the top to expand and contract (otherwise, it'll split the corner joints of the skirt). One idea would be to use finger joints on all 4 corners, and glue the front joints together, but cut the back joints a little deep, and not glue them. The finger joints will keep the end-cap and back skirt in alignment with the benchtop, but unglued, will allow the end-caps and the back skirt to move relative to each other as the top expands and contracts.

[Ian Coop]

I'm not too sure if this will help, however, in the photo you can see the same quick-release large vise from Lee Valley you are talking about (I painted mine black to match). I had a hard time following the translated instructions that came with the vise. However, it seemed that since the vise must be mounted underneath the bench top I did just that regardless of whether it was 2 or 2 1/2". My bench top thickness came out to just under 3" thick so I mounted the vise directly underneath the benchtop, then drilled the appropriate holes in the front apron and wooden front jaw of the vise. I think at full extension the jaw does drop a little due to the weight of the maple, however, in use the front jaw is used almost exclusively for holding thin pieces of wood between the bench apron and jaw or using the dogs to clamp items on the surface. The top two metal guide rods are at least 3 inches down and the central screw lower still. I have not noticed any problems in use.

Ian