New LV DT saw

[Doug Shepard]

This just showed up on LV's site today
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=61974&cat=51&ap=1
Did they have one of these at WIA and if so, did anyone try one? As usual, they put a very nice price on it.

[Alan DuBoff]

I don't know what to say, except it's different looking. :rolleyes:

[John Dykes]

Doug, I did use it - and it works very well... How well? Lord, I don't honestly know. I have 3 Adria saws - and I saw no appreciable difference that I could put my finger on. It cuts quickly and tracks a line. 'Bout all I can say... I'm not the world's greatest saw expert, but use mine frequently.

It wasn't like when I used the Blue Spruce chisels and felt a real difference in what I have.

Would I buy one if I didn't own the Adria? Very possible...

- jbd in Denver

[John Matheson]

I also tried it. For the few cuts I made it tracked true and was easy to start. The handle is really felt great in the hand. The plastic top is a little off-puttting but it is filled with metal to give the saw a heavy feel. Overall I thought it to be a good saw at this price point but I'm not giving up my Lie-Nielsen just yet.
John

[Jim Nardi]

Seems like they made it to a price point. I'll head down to the LV store and check it out in person. Don't really need another saw but hey I should have stopped several saw's ago.

[Brent Smith]

Don't really need another saw but hey I should have stopped several saw's ago.

I know the feeling Jim!!! Problem is I haven't stopped :o. I placed my order for one this evening. Should have it early next week and I'll post my thoughts on it.

[Adam Cherubini]

Rob gave me one. (Thanks Rob). I like it. It's a good all around saw that will work in a variety of stock thicknesses. I think I counted 14 or 15 ppi. Blade length is 9". There's a bit more depth in the toe than the heel. But I think it's still plenty to cut a small tenon.

The weight, balance, and ergonomics are all excellent. As good as anything I have. The handle is attached with a single bolt. I'm thinking you could easily customize this saw with new handles. I thought a black plastic handle would look cool or some other high tech material (aluminum?). These saws could be color coded for class room use.

Rob says he's a pull saw guy. Obviously (was it Kevin?) the designer was a push saw guy. He got all the little details right and did it for half the price of a comparable saw which in my book is the best feature of this saw. This is a really high quality, entry level western dt. We've been waiting for this saw for how many years? 20 at least?

Bravo LV

Adam

[Johnny Kleso]

At first I seen it said SS but no call out for the backing material and I thought OK they don't want to say Plastic but on the Info page its glass filled Poly and thats the best plastic you can get and it might help dampen vibration and has a first class handle stud as well..

I wouldn't mind giving it a go :)

[Richard Magbanua]

I must admit, I wasn't too impressed with the appearance at first look. However, I'm finding it more attractive after seeing a few times. Considering the approval by Mr. Cherubini and its price I may be giving its purchase some serious thought. I only have a few Japanese saws and a couple rehabbed western saws that I have been learning with but I would like to get a higher quality set someday. Does anyone know if Rob has plans for additional saws with this design and price range? Hopefully some tenon saws.

[Doug Shepard]

Thanks folks. I may give one of these a try. Can't go too far wrong at that price. I've been using a Dozuki Z picked up ages ago @ Woodcraft or a LN carcass saw - neither one exactly appropriate for DTs so this may at least give me a low cost decent DT saw to at least figure out if I'm in the push or pull camp. I think I generally would prefer a better pull saw but we'll see.

[John Keeton]

I only own one old tenon saw (Disston) which is a mediocre tool, so take these comments for what they are worth. I think this is a brilliant marketing move by LV. There are dozens of traditional looking saws out there, many good, some not so much. This entry is DIFFERENT and doesn't compete with the traditional look. It will appeal to a different market, particularly with the price. I like the look and would certainly consider a purchase given the favorable comments on function. But, I am not very bound by tradition.

[Thomas Knighton]

He got all the little details right and did it for half the price of a comparable saw which in my book is the best feature of this saw. This is a really high quality, entry level western dt. We've been waiting for this saw for how many years? 20 at least?


This is really the important thing IMHO. For the new person, $130 for a new dovetail saw is a lot to spend. Rehabbing an old saw might not be what they want to do. Lee Valley just built one that seems to be comparable to Lie Nielsen, Gramercy, Wenzloff & Sons, and Adria in quality (based on comments) but superior on price. Even if it's not quite as good as those other manufacturers, at the price it's still a bargain!

The only knock I can see (without having used it), is that it's not a traditional look. I can live with it. I just hope Lee Valley will put out matching carcass and tenon saws ;)

Tom
(who's been away for a while)

[Rob Lee]

I only own one old tenon saw (Disston) which is a mediocre tool, so take these comments for what they are worth. I think this is a brilliant marketing move by LV. There are dozens of traditional looking saws out there, many good, some not so much. This entry is DIFFERENT and doesn't compete with the traditional look. It will appeal to a different market, particularly with the price. I like the look and would certainly consider a purchase given the favorable comments on function. But, I am not very bound by tradition.

Thanks John - excellent comments...

We are very much aware of our potential to impact small makers - and I don't think this entry will hurt the folks that are doing such a fine job now...and - it's only one saw. I really hope it helps develope a "taste" for good saws - and that you folks spend lots with the Mike Wenzloffs and Ed Paiks of the world (and others - I won't try to list 'em all, 'cause I'm sure to miss some).

I know I'm going to start using more than just a Dozuki in my shop .... finally decided to give my tablesaw the heave-ho...(but not my SCMS!). For sheet goods - I can do the cutting here at work.

Cheers -

Rob

[Adam Cherubini]

I think there are probably a lot of guys (maybe Robin Lee is one) who chose Japanese zeta saws because there were no decent western saws available or available in their price range. My first (and only) new dt saw was a Crown Gent's saw which was really nice except for the handle. I only had to knock the set out of it and refile the teeth to get it going. So no wonder guys like Japanese saws.

So here's a western saw in a japanese saw price range, with a set up that will make it handy for a variety of cuts. It could be very effective at turning folks away from Japanese saws. I'm sure Mike Wenzloff, Adria, LN, and Grammercy will be very pleased with it.

Adam

[Russ Kay]

About the price on the LV being so low -- in the session on tool design, Rob Lee said that at the last minute he RAISED the price on the saw by $10 because he thought it would otherwise appear TOO cheap to be considered.

[Joe Cunningham]

I think there are probably a lot of guys (maybe Robin Lee is one) who chose Japanese zeta saws because there were no decent western saws available or available in their price range. My first (and only) new dt saw was a Crown Gent's saw which was really nice except for the handle. I only had to knock the set out of it and refile the teeth to get it going. So no wonder guys like Japanese saws.

Adam

I used a dozuki for a while based on recommendations here and elsewhere, but honestly I just can't cut well with it. The blade seems to wander on me and I find it difficult to cut straight with it. I now use a cheapo Buck Bros backsaw and it works a lot better (for me), but I still need to re-file it for rip.

I was planning on asking for either a nice DT saw or LV plane for Christmas, but now I think I'll just get this saw and ask for the plane.

[edit]woo hoo! ordered along with sharpening files

[Dave Anderson NH]

While I like tools with classic designs, and have a mix of modern and antique saws, I would seriously consider this saw if I needed another dovetail saw. I'm sure it exhibits all of what we have come to expect in quality from Lee Valley/Veritas and the price is very attractive. I too think it will make an outstanding entry level saw for those who are in transition between power and hand tools. I would expect that it will kill the sales only for saws like the Rockler "Disstons" which look klunky and are overpriced at $130. The makers of classic saws made of traditional materials should be minimally effected.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...So here's a western saw in a japanese saw price range, with a set up that will make it handy for a variety of cuts. It could be very effective at turning folks away from Japanese saws. I'm sure Mike Wenzloff, Adria, LN, and Grammercy will be very pleased with it.
I think I am pleased with it regardless of whether one chooses western or eastern saws, actually.

Lee Valley is doing the woodworking world a service bringing this saw out. For that I can only be happy.

fwiw, I have eastern saws. I like them. I have a few I am making for someone in the near future. Bottom line for me is it cuts wood as intended and is a hand tool, I pretty much like it!

Though it might sound odd to someone the first time they hear this, Rob Lee once said that his competition isn't LN, me or others. The competition is other hobbies and interests that hinder one from starting or continuing woodworking. Choice in woodworking tools might be bad for a particular maker specifically, but it is indicative of a growing and healthy pursuit and is the best thing for woodworking as a whole.

Take care, Mike

[Raney Nelson]

I played with this saw at WIA. It works extremely well. I'm not very fond of its appearance, but so what? It's capable of absolutely first-class work.

As for sheer PERFORMANCE, the saw was firmly in the same league as the LN, Wenzloff, and Gramercy saws. It's heavier than the others, but that's not necessarily a bad thing - depends on what you're doing.

AFAIC, anyone asking for a first DT saw, or the best 'inexpensive' DT saw should buy this. There's no competition until you get to twice the price. At those prices, you can get beauty too...

Raney,

(who's not selling his Gramercy or his Wenzloff custom saws, but will never ever recommend a Crown or Pax DT saw again...)

[David Keller NC]

This is not something I would choose, but that's entirely based on a traditionalist (stick in the mud?) expectation of appearances. That said, I do think Rob's right that it will not likely impact the smaller, high-end makers - I'm pretty much the dead-ringer of their customer profile.

I do note that it's "patent pending" - I can of wonder what's actually patentable - I've seen several saws with injection-molded spines.

What I do hope is that Mr. Lee's innovation will put severe pressure on the folks that continue to put out junk at the lower price points - I'm speaking specifically of Pax and Stanley. In the case of Pax, their blades are OK, but the handles are completely unacceptable - done as cheaply as possible on an industrial router with sharp arrisses. In the case of Stanley, both the blade and the handle are not acceptable. I've got to wonder how many newbies have concluded that they just can't do hand-cut dovetails because they thought that all saws were pretty much the same, and the higher-priced ones were just adding eye-candy.

[Doug Shepard]

... Rob Lee said that at the last minute he RAISED the price on the saw by $10 because he thought it would otherwise appear TOO cheap to be considered.

Well I just placed an order, but Rob - I'll still respect you in the morning if you want to knock $10 back off.:D

[Gary Herrmann]

LV planes aren't always traditional looking either, and I think all of mine work well. If this saw follows in the same vein, I'm going to consider getting one.

Sure it doesn't look my Disstons, but that doesn't bother me if it performs well. I can always gaze at my Philad'a 12" if I feel the need. Hey, wait a minute, I only have closed handled Disstons. Hmm...

[Alan DuBoff]

Interesting to see people buying them, I'm sure they will like them. There does seem to be a market for a saw like this in the price range it was offered, and that is what Lee Valley is about.

Personally speaking, I couldn't make a saw like that easily, nor would I try. Any saw I make will be hand crafted, and you couldn't sell a hand crafted saw in this price range and expect to make money.

If I was in the market for an inexpensive saw (which I'm not :p), I would just buy a $20 Crown gent's saw and a sharpening file. All of our mileage varies...

[Thomas Williams]

A lot of discussion over the new LV planes, which look really nice and are now on my maybe someday list. However, I noticed a new modern technology back saw on the LV web site. Anyone have any more details on this one?

[Thomas Knighton]

Chris Schwarz did a review of it here (http://popularwoodworking.com/article/veritas_dovetail_saw). My opinion is that, if it performs as advertized, that it's a great thing for beginning hand tool users. Finding a decent dovetail saw in the wild can be tricky, or it was for me. For the price that some restored vintage saws went for on eBay, one could buy this new saw and still have some money left over for other goodies.

The only other option was Japanese saws, and frankly I don't like using them. I know I'm not alone on that one.

Just my $.02 ;)

Tom

[Richard Magbanua]

Different isn't it? I would consider getting it though. Seems to be the best bargain for a beginner like me.
"The Schwarz" has a short review of it here:

http://popularwoodworking.com/article/veritas_dovetail_saw

Also, he shows what it looks like with a black handle here:

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/

It looks pretty nice with a black handle. Would even match their new block plane!:rolleyes:

[Joe Cunningham]

Mine should arrive tomorrow.

[Thomas Williams]

Thanks for the links. I am about ready to try a modern dovetail saw. I have been leaning toward the Gramercy or a Wenzloff. However, I think the new LV is truly a "modern" saw so I will give it a try. Even if it doesn't make it in the market place, my grandchildren may have an interesting ww collectible.

[Marcus Ward]

Let us know how it performs!

[Jack Camillo]

The Darth Vader saw

[John Powers]

I'm not reading "Starter Saw" or "Beginner Saw" in the Lee Valley site. I'm guessing they consider this you lifetime saw. I'm anxious to hear what the users have to say over time on it.

[Jack Camillo]

I'm not reading "Starter Saw" or "Beginner Saw" in the Lee Valley site. I'm guessing they consider this you lifetime saw. I'm anxious to hear what the users have to say over time on it.

Nowadays if it's less than 200 dollars, it's "entry level," "second best," "non-premium," etc., fo da po folk

[Alan DuBoff]

Let us know how it performs!
I'm sure it performs just fine, you can make a quality saw out of a paint scraper afterall...:rolleyes:

I have to admit that one thing I admire about LV is that they do try to think outside of the box and create things with modern materials and mechanisms. In some cases they have created some excellent products, other cases the products seem like gimmicks to me. Coming up with good quality products that add value can be a difficult proposition. Many of the tool designs we use have proved themselves over time, so that makes it even more difficult.

I'm not the type of person to buy a product just because it is cheaper, so the entry level comment I hear from folks doesn't hold much water to me. You can get a decent Crown Gents Saw for about $20, and a $5 file will allow it to be a decent saw. This has been available for a while.

Since hand crafted handsaws take more time, and seem to be in demand, having a machine manufactured handsaw for folks readily available seems good. Some people weigh price heavily in their decision, this saw seems to threaten the Japanese market the most in that regard.

That is fascinating, since the Japanese dominate the throw-away market, I wonder if these LV saws will have replacement blades? That will make it easier for folks. Then rather than learning how to sharpen their saw, they will be able to buy a new blade and possibly just swap it. There is a large sector of these "throw-away woodworkers".

I suspect in the future, the folks that frequent garage saws and feas will be saying, "Ah, another one of those plastic saws...I wonder if you can get blades for those things anymore...???" :rolleyes:

I will say this, that if the LV dovetail saw can encourage folks to learn how to sharpen their own saw, in that it is not as expensive so they don't need to fear the cost, I think that will be one of the biggest values it might be able to add. I suspect most people buying them will be the ones that either send their saws out to be sharpened or just buy a new one when they think it is dull. :o

[Jim Becker]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=97116

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

Since hand crafted handsaws take more time, and seem to be in demand, having a machine manufactured handsaw for folks readily available seems good. Some people weigh price heavily in their decision, this saw seems to threaten the Japanese market the most in that regard.

That is fascinating, since the Japanese dominate the throw-away market, I wonder if these LV saws will have replacement blades? That will make it easier for folks. Then rather than learning how to sharpen their saw, they will be able to buy a new blade and possibly just swap it. There is a large sector of these "throw-away woodworkers".

(snip)


Hi Alan -

I'll answer a few of those for you...

1) most saws made today are machine ground - including some of the ones you may consider hand-made...that has to be asked of each venodr...

2) no replacement blades for our saw... the blade is molded right into the spine

3) our saw is meant to be resharpened by hand - the reason we have the blade material, thickness, and tooth configuration we do...

Cheers -

Rob

[Alan DuBoff]

1) most saws made today are machine ground - including some of the ones you may consider hand-made...that has to be asked of each venodr...
Sure, I agree. I use machines to make saws also, and quite a bit is milled and produced with manual metalworking machines.

I know that some saw makers, such as Adria, use water cut teeth on their blades.

What do you mean by "machine ground"?

I was mostly referring to having a handle that is shaped by hand, using hand tools such as rasps, chisels, riflers, etc...opposed to routing machines and shapers to crank out the same handle to every saw. Several folks making that quality of tool, in the current market.

3) our saw is meant to be resharpened by hand - the reason we have the blade material, thickness, and tooth configuration we do...
I hope folks will be encouraged to take a stab at sharpening these saws. The most common thing I hear from folks that send their saws out to be sharpened is, "I would hate to ruin this $125 saw". Not a very good excuse, IMO, even if a handsaw costs $500, it still needs to be sharpened in use. Since these saws are close to half the price of other saws being sold on the market, maybe that won't bother folks as much.

As an added plus, it can be used on the Veritas Pouchless Tool Belt (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=53927&cat=1,43413,45992) since it still has enough metal in the product. ;)

[Joe Cunningham]

The most common thing I hear from folks that send their saws out to be sharpened is, "I would hate to ruin this $125 saw". Not a very good excuse, IMO, even if a handsaw costs $500, it still needs to be sharpened in use. Since these saws are close to half the price of other saws being sold on the market, maybe that won't bother folks as much.


I ordered it with saw files. But I intend to practice sharpening on my $15 Buck Bros backsaw first, then move on to my vintage panel saws. Like anything else, I'm sure it takes practice, and despite this being an 'inexpensive' saw, it is still a decent chunk of money for me. But then again, I am a frugal person by nature.

[Alan DuBoff]

Rob,

I will give you one thing...I would be hard pressed to make any type of saw and be able to sell it for $70, and make a profit...;)

Interesting with the rake, I have not played with something so drastic as 14 degrees, but the more I saw the more I want the rake up almost vertical. Maybe I should try going over to the dark side.

It looks like a functional tool, certainly, maybe the design will grow on me over time. Maybe it's one of those things that you have to have in your hand physically and using it to cut wood to fully understand. The majority of the handle is wood, and in some ways that rod could make sense.

Curious though, I don't see any dimensions on the length or depth under the spline....vise clearance looks good also, it does have some pluses about it..given the Pax saws you sell go for more $$$s, these look like much better saws, at a more affordable price. I 'spose there's a stronger market there, than at the high end. Just that I can't help it if I have high end taste...:D

[Thomas Knighton]

You can get a decent Crown Gents Saw for about $20, and a $5 file will allow it to be a decent saw. This has been available for a while

I can't speak for everyone, but the Gent's Saw has one of the two reasons I dislike Japanese saws...the handle. The way you have to grip a Gent's Saw isn't natural IMHO, but the Veritas saw has a pistol grip which is. I suspect there's a lot more people like me in this regard.

[Garth Keel]

of the saw. While I won't be selling my Grammercy anytime soon, I ordered this one based on the LV reputation for quality. I have almost all of their planes and have never been dissapointed. Unusual designs will never please everyone but when you like them, and the tool is practical, why not give it a try? :rolleyes:

[eric auer]

Mr Lee, thanks for bring a saw like this to the market.

If anything, I'd like to see on with the handle and spine as one molded piece, maybe it would be even a bit more affordable and certainly very durable.

EA

[Thomas Knighton]

That I don't agree, and in fact find the gent's saw to be natural for me.

Was it as natural as a pistol gripped saw the first time you handled one? Or is it something you've gotten so used to that it feels natural now? The reason I ask is that a pistol grip tends to keep your hand in it's natural orientation to the rest of the arm, where as the gent's saw tends to pull it out of that alignment. Hence my comment about it being more natural.


A sharp gent's saw is a decent tool, IMO, and the Disston 68 is a good example of that.

I won't argue it being a "decent" tool for someone who either prefers that style handle or is indifferent to it. I also won't argue that it'll cut perfectly acceptable dovetails. What I'm saying is that for those who, like me, dispise the handle on a gent's saw, it's not a decent substitute for other western saws.


Some people will buy the new Veritas saw even if they own another saw, and that really shows the type of industry we are a part of, but I digress, this is why LV sells tools after all. :)

To each their own ;)

[eric auer]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=97116

Can these 2 threads be merged?

Thanks

EA

[Tony Zaffuto]

One of the handiest and cheapest saws around is the Lee Valley Razorsaw #60F03.12. This is a "gents" style saw and I bought one a couple of years ago after owning a number of vintage saws and some modern saws (LN & Adria). This little saw is one of the best bargains around period and I've used mine many, many times for all sorts of cuts including dovetails on thin boards. The handle style comes into the hand very nicely and does not feel counter intuitive to me at all.

I also have a Crown, that although it cuts nicely, I don't use it much. I would like to try one of the Tools for Working Wood brand "gents" style as the handle is a bit more bulbous and claims to have a heavier back on the saw.

T.Z.

[Jim Becker]

Can these 2 threads be merged?

Thanks

EA

Done

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Thomas Knighton]

I don't see this natural orientation opposed to a gents handle.

I disagree, but I'm sure we can agree to disagree on this.


My personal taste should not express dis-satisfaction in their product, it only shows my personal taste for the tools which I own.

In all honesty, your posts haven't been coming across that way on my end. The great downside of the internet is that tone is far more subjective - and quite often very wrong - than in real life. I'll keep that in mind while reading future posts ;)

[Verne Mattson]

I will say this, that if the LV dovetail saw can encourage folks to learn how to sharpen their own saw, in that it is not as expensive so they don't need to fear the cost, I think that will be one of the biggest values it might be able to add. I suspect most people buying them will be the ones that either send their saws out to be sharpened or just buy a new one when they think it is dull. :o

As someone who's taken the time to learn how to sharpen a saw, I think it's a skill everyone should learn. I took an old Garrett Wade Paragon Gents saw and practiced with it. It took a few times, but it has turned out to be a great little saw - it cuts fast, clean, and starts easily. The only thing I don't like about it is the handle. I find the gents saw uncomfortable to hold for long periods. I'd definitely consider the Lee Valley saw - for some reason (perhaps price) I wouldn't think twice about trying to resharpen it myself. Other dovetail saws like the Grammercy, Wenzloff and LN are gorgeous, and if I cut DTs more often I would consider them. But for me the LV seems to fall into a nice zone.

I have the Japanese Zeta Dovetail saw, which is very nice. But after working with both styles I prefer a push stroke. I seem to be able to control the push stroke better - my cuts don't seem to wander as much. Probably my technique -

[Michael Gibbons]

Regardless of how it looks, it is still just a saw. If I needed a new one I would consider it based on Lee Valley's reputation for quality. Modern looks with historical function.

[Alan DuBoff]

As someone who's taken the time to learn how to sharpen a saw, I think it's a skill everyone should learn. I took an old Garrett Wade Paragon Gents saw and practiced with it. It took a few times, but it has turned out to be a great little saw - it cuts fast, clean, and starts easily. The only thing I don't like about it is the handle. I find the gents saw uncomfortable to hold for long periods.
Make a new handle for it, here's one I did on a $20 Crown Gent's saw.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=101637&d=1227288733

[Marcus Ward]

Looks like it came off an Anschutz rifle.