Sawstop Gloat - It's Alive!

[Scott Myers]

Finally, I have the Sawstop cabinet saw up and running. For all those thinking about one, go ahead and pull the trigger. You won't be sorry. Other than those things that are obvious to everyone: saw blade brake, super heavy duty precision trunnion, fabulous fit & finish; there are some things that Sawstop doesn't talk about enough and I thought I would make mention of them.

First, I just want to say this is about as heavy a built saw as you would ever want. My workshop is now in my basement and under construction (see photo). So bringing this thing down in my basement was a REAL chore. Myself and two other men moved it down on an applicance dolly and it was quite difficult (lots of sweat) and we were glad when it was done. I just moved a Steel City cabinet saw up a few weeks back with just my wife helping with no probelms and little sweat. The difference was that big.

Once I got it down there, we were standing there looking at the mobile base (which is a beautiful piece of engineering with superb fit & finish in itself) and laughing saying "Yeah, right. We're gonna lift this saw up and have someone slide the base under! Not going to happen.) So I rigged up my old hoist that is in the photo. That made the job a snap. Allowed me to get it centered perfectly on the base and take my time doing it. No scratches, no grunting.

OK, so what sets this saw apart from the competition other than the obvious?

First, the table top has a locating pin in the front and two jacking screws in the back/sides, so when you need to move the top to align it with the mitre slots, there is no guess work. No bumping with a deadblow. Loosen the 4 main bolts, watch your dial caliper in the back of the blade and move the jack screws. Then tighten down the 4 main bolts again after getting it squared up. Very nice.

Second, and VERY high in my book, Sawstop actually gives you a procedure with a simple math formula in print in their manual (best tablesaw manual I have ever seen) to adjust the alignment of the blade to the mitre slot at 45 degrees bevel. For anyone who has ever wrestled trying to get the blade aligned at both 45 degrees and 90 degrees, you know the pain I am talking about. It normally involves shimming the top to the cabinet and a lot of bumping of the top. You normally have to sort of "sneak up on it" through a series of iterations, getting closer with each step. So 3 hours later, you're almost there. In my Sawstop, my blade to mitre slot was off about .005" at 45 degrees. Not bad, but I wanted to start up the new saw as close to perfect as I could reasonably get. Following their instructions, it took me about 30 mintes to get it within .001" at 45 degrees and spot on at 90 degrees. Honestly, it took me two tries, due to operator error the first time. But still, all done in about 30 minutes. There is no shimming with a Sawstop. There are two bolts you loosen and move the back of the table using the prescribed method and math formula, retighten the two bolts, and then do your 90 degree adjustment with the jack screws. The longest time taken (Which I didn't include in my 30 minutes) was I had to cut off the supplied metric hex wrench to make a stubby version to acces those two bolts, as it is a semi-blind operation to get to them and they are close the the back of the cabinet. The fact you need a stubby version is mentioned in the manual, but it is not supplied by Sawstop as a stubby version. You have to modify it yourself. I guess they assume that if you are buying a cabinet saw, you probably have the ability to do so if you need to. A fair assumption I would say.

The most tricky part was getting my 90 and 45 degree stops adjusted. They are tucked in there pretty tightly. So unless you have super skinning monkey arms with 2 elbows in each one, you have to move the trunnion completely off the stop before you can find it to adjust it easily. Wasn't a big deal once you figure out what you need to do.

There are a lot of other niceties like a locakble power disconnect, metal dust port instead of the plastic that is so popular today, thumbscrew removable internal dust collector tube for when you drop the arbor nut down it and others I am sure I am forgetting.

Now, I need to make something. I haven't even cut one piece of wood yet. I might just go cut some scrap lumber now just so I can use it!

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Congrats on your new machine!

[Ted Shrader]

Scott -

Congratulations on your new arrival. Interesting comments about some of the finer design points. Give us some more feedback after you have played with your new toy for a while.

Regards,
Ted

[Jim Kountz]

Nice saw! Charles Neil was nice enough to show me his sawstop last summer while I was visiting his shop and I couldt agree more about the quality and engineering. The safety features are just the tip of the iceberg with these thing. They are really something. I especially like the large paddle off switch, nice touch.

[Dave Verstraete]

Scott

Congrats. You'll never regret it. I also put a Sawstop into the basement but decided to buy a Warn winch beforehand. Have fun with it.

Now, Go make some dust!!

[Anthony Anderson]

Congrats Scott! I am sure you will enjoy your new SawStop. I too put the SawStop in my basement shop. Wasn't too bad, with help.

[Andy Casiello]

Congratulations, Scott! That's a very cool machine, and on everyone's drool list... Enjoy the saw, it's a beauty!

[Don Bullock]

Congratulations Scott on your SawStop. It's a great machine.

[Scott Myers]

I cut my first pieces of wood with it last night from the scrap bin, just to get the feel of the saw. Like any big precision heavy cabinet saw, it worked very well. I don't much like the stock mitre gauge, but I have an Incra 1000SE and won't use the stock one for much more than 90 degree crosscuts anyway.

Of course the stock blade is a cheap 60 tooth .118" kerf blade, so not much to talk about there. Pretty rought cuts with plenty of tear out. And it rang horribly like a bell while running with the zero-clearance insert. I'll use it for construction lumber and that's about it. I put the 40 tooth Woodworker II in it, and the ringing stopped and the cuts were smooth as glass, of course.

Something to note about the blade change, which is spelled out carefully in the manual. Not all 10" blades are actually the same exact 10" diameter, which I think we probably all assumed anyway. The Forrest blade is slightly smaller (perhaps 1/16", but I did not measure) in diameter than the stock Sawstop blade. Not a big deal on most saws, but on the Sawstop, you have to adjust the brake for the proper clearance between it and the blade to assure you don't either ruin the brake or have it not work properly. It's easy to do, as they put the access to the adjustment right up by the arbor so you get to it through the insert opening. So with a US nickel and a hex wrench, it takes just a few seconds to get the clearange right. However, I think I need to solder a nickel to something as I dropped it twice into the dust hose. Bummer.

[Scott Myers]

I had called Sawstop yesterday with a technical question. During my conversation with the tech, her mentioned that they had a 5 minute spot run on Discovery on one of their tech shows called Time Warp. The link to it on youtube is below. The inventor actually sets it off by sticking his finger in it! That's faith in your product. Pretty cool!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHrmvQKevfI

Enjoy!

[Sam Blanchard]

Congrats on the saw. And you're very correct about dialing in the blade/brake distance [DAMHIKT:o]. You may want to consider my solution: after fishng for nickels got old, I grabbed 3 blades from an old set of feeler gauges that added up to the required .070". Then I bolted them together as a permanent set. Now I just keep it in my shop apron or pocket and I'm good 2 go. My .02

[Scott Myers]

Sounds like a good solution Sam. Thanks.

[NICK BARBOZA]

Scott,

I felt the same way when i set mine up! The fit and finish is great! not to mention the best manual ive seen for any tool ever.

quick question on your adjustment for blade dia. Did you have an issue with the height of the riving knife? When i put a Frued Glue line rip on mine, i cannot do a cut where the blade is burried. (i.e. the riving knife is sticking up higher than the blade...) anybody ever had this problem??? or is there a way to adjust it?

Thanks
Nick

[Scott Myers]

Yep, sure is a way Nick. You didn't think there wouldn't be on a Sawstop did you? I had to adjust mine.

Below is a photo of the adjustment screws. I have removed the riving knife so you can see them easily. You can find the details on how to adjust them in your manual. You will need to remove the blade and riving knife and lower the trunnion all the way down. I found that if I adjusted the bevel angle over some, it helped even more to get my hands in there with the hex wrenches. The capscrews marked "A" you loosen to move the knife or splitter forward/backward (horizontal) in relationship to the blade to adjust the blade/knife gap. The capscrews marked "B", which you can only see the side of in the photo, you loosen to move the knife vertically to adjust its height.

In practice, you first adjust the vertical adjustment so that the knife is about 1 mm (according to the manual) below the top of the blade, so you can make non-thru cuts. There are big serrations between the mating surfaces of the knife mount where you loosen those screws (you'll see what I mean when you do it), so you have to back out the screws quite a bit to get it to move up or down. Once those are tightened back up, you loosen the larger horizontal movement screws and slide the knife mount back and forth to get your blade clearance. I would suggest putting a mark on the stationary mount surface so you have some reference when you do this. The clearange between the blade and knife is supposed to be 5-7 mm, according to the manual. Frankly, I would err on the too wide side to insure the knife won't hit the blade, IMHO. But do reference you manual with this photo and it will all make sense.

I luckily did not have to mess with the horizontal adjustment screws. This is where you can get the blade out of alignment with the blade, so you would have to get out tools to make sure it is properly aligned. But since I didn't have to do this, I have not learned to do so and am no help here.

The other thing that is popular to do is to align the knife with the right side of the blade, which should reduce kickback potential even futher, in theory. Mine is still centered, as this was the factory adjustment.


Scott,

I felt the same way when i set mine up! The fit and finish is great! not to mention the best manual ive seen for any tool ever.

quick question on your adjustment for blade dia. Did you have an issue with the height of the riving knife? When i put a Frued Glue line rip on mine, i cannot do a cut where the blade is burried. (i.e. the riving knife is sticking up higher than the blade...) anybody ever had this problem??? or is there a way to adjust it?

Thanks
Nick

[Scott Myers]

Well, after a few more test cuts and some more measurements of the fence, it appears my fence bows out on the left side right at the blade by about .008"-.010". You can also see where each internal attachment screw is pulling on the side board, as there is a .003"-.005" dip at each screw. Not ideal, but I can work with it. After making some test rips on soft pine with a WWII blade, I was getting some burning on the wood on the fence side. This appears to be an issue with that bowing out. Overall, I have the fence toeing out away from the blade by .003" from front to back. Looks like I need to start trying to tweak in internally with the screws to get rid of that center bow and minimize the dips at the screws, if possible. Looks like a tedious task, but it has to be done. I'll have to play with it for a while and see if I can get it improved considerably. Nothing is perfect I suppose. I think I will start by pulling off the boards and checking the tube itself to see how straight and flat it is.

I think I like the Powermatic fence better, with its machined tube allowing for a totally flat fence. But with some playing around, I can probably get this stock SawStop fence up to snuff. I'll report back later on the progress.

[Kevin Groenke]

Great comments Scott, and congrats on parting with your money wisely.

Our blades get changed frequently by users who know nothing about the gap specifications. Rather then the nickle method, I occasionally back the brake cartridge way off and then bring it forward a bit at a time until the saw spools up without the "blade gap flashing light error code". I'd estimate that the max gap is closer to .150" which allows for a wider range of blade diameters to be used with reduced risk of the brake being triggered when a larger blade is installed. I doubt this has measurable detrimental affect on "stop" time.

I agree that SS fence leaves a bit to be desired. The keyhole slots and elongated holes provided to access the screw heads may be the single worst engineering aspect of the saw. After what seemed like hours of tweaking and several feet of masking tape, ours are acceptable, but just. When time comes for the faces to be replaced, they will be re-engineered.

What if the fence was a machined [ channel instead of a tube? This would make all of the fasteners easily accessible from underneath. Hmm, I have an extra SS fence in the shop, I may need to explore that further.

Unfortunately an aluminum extrusion isn't a viable option with the SS. (not in a student shop anyway) It guess it might work if it had a non-metallic face with sufficient thickness for the occasional fence-into-the-blade maneuver.

-kg

[Brian Penning]

Scott,

I felt the same way when i set mine up! The fit and finish is great! not to mention the best manual ive seen for any tool ever.

quick question on your adjustment for blade dia. Did you have an issue with the height of the riving knife? When i put a Frued Glue line rip on mine, i cannot do a cut where the blade is burried. (i.e. the riving knife is sticking up higher than the blade...) anybody ever had this problem??? or is there a way to adjust it?

Thanks
Nick


I simply ground the top of the riving knife down a bit on a grinder.

[Scott Myers]

Ouch Brian! It is adjustable.


I simply ground the top of the riving knife down a bit on a grinder.

[Craig Nickles]

Nice Machine! Congrats!

[Mark Singer]

Scott,
I have the same saw with the same fence. It really is quite good! I had the Powrmatic before and the Sawstop is a better saw. Congratulations !

[Scott Myers]

I guess what one sacrifices by opening up the gap a bit between the brake and blade is a few milliseconds of reaction time. Probably a decent trade-off in a commercial/school environment. I'll have to ask SawStop's tech support about distance VS milliseconds of reaction time. I am sure they have charts on it from their initial testing and developement.

Agreed on the fence design. It does leave a bit to be desired. The ball-end hex tool they give you isn't precision enough to even adjust the fence! It just slips no matter how hard you push. I have to go buy some good T-handle ball end metric hex wrenches so I can actually adjust the fence. I learned you actually scrape off the powder coat at one end of the elongated holes when you are trying to bear down on the fence face screws. Bummer. I have to wonder why these saw manufacturers have to keep reinventing the basic Beisemeyer fence. I guess everyone wants something to set them apart from the others, even on the fence.

I understand why they wouldn't use a U-Channel. In order to get the same stiffness as the box section, the gauge would have to be A LOT heavier, making the fence weigh a lot more; probably double the weight. Still, the holes on their current fence box could be opened up a lot wider (at least 2X) and all the way from one face to the other face without sacrificing appreciable strength where it counts.

I am interested in learning how flat the sides of the steel box are. Without sides that are die flat and parallel, it will be a wrestling match to get the removable faces flat and parallel to each other as they should be. Once I go pick up the new hex wrenches and get the faces off, I will find the answers to this question. If they are out .005" or more, that's an issue in my book, as tolerances stack up. Frankly, the opposite sides of the box section should be within .001-.002" parallel in both axis IMHO, so you have a good base to start with when you put the faces on. Adding faces will drive it out of tolerance further of course, so starting with as near perfect on the mounting surfaces is very important. Otherwise, you end up where you are with lots of masking tape as shims.

When it comes time to replace the faces, I'll probably opt for using sheets of UHMWPE. Super slick, ultra stable, hard with good tolerances. Certainly better than plywood with a plastic face as it comes with.

I'll do a thorough analysis of the fence design and post it in this thread.

When you plop down the kind of cash that is required to buy a Sawstop cabinet saw, you expect perfection, even in the fence.


Great comments Scott, and congrats on parting with your money wisely.

Our blades get changed frequently by users who know nothing about the gap specifications. Rather then the nickle method, I occasionally back the brake cartridge way off and then bring it forward a bit at a time until the saw spools up without the "blade gap flashing light error code". I'd estimate that the max gap is closer to .150" which allows for a wider range of blade diameters to be used with reduced risk of the brake being triggered when a larger blade is installed. I doubt this has measurable detrimental affect on "stop" time.

I agree that SS fence leaves a bit to be desired. The keyhole slots and elongated holes provided to access the screw heads may be the single worst engineering aspect of the saw. After what seemed like hours of tweaking and several feet of masking tape, ours are acceptable, but just. When time comes for the faces to be replaced, they will be re-engineered.

What if the fence was a machined [ channel instead of a tube? This would make all of the fasteners easily accessible from underneath. Hmm, I have an extra SS fence in the shop, I may need to explore that further.

Unfortunately an aluminum extrusion isn't a viable option with the SS. (not in a student shop anyway) It guess it might work if it had a non-metallic face with sufficient thickness for the occasional fence-into-the-blade maneuver.

-kg

[Kevin Groenke]

Please let us know how the fence tweaking works out. If my recollection serves me correctly one of our two fences has a couple dips that are ~.003" deep. Not a big deal but annoying when everything else is so well thought out and executed. I've also thought I would replace w/UHMW. Though exposed screws are not to elegant, I've thought I would just countersink some flatheads in the UHMW face to ease assembly/adjustment. Another solution I've considered is solid phenolic sheet or phenolic plywood with T-slot attachment. I guess the SS fence is an improvement over our old Beismeyers where we had cement the laminate to the the substrate after it was screwed to the fence tube.

I'm not so sure the [ channel would necessarily have to be too much heavier. With only 3 sides, there's ~30% less surface and with the [ channel's gusseted corners, it may be just as rigid as tubing with the same wall thickness. Maybe I'll check the engineering library, I can't make any sense of the ASTM data I can find online.

3 x 1.5 x .170" [ = 4.1 lbs/ft
3 x 1.5 x .125" [] = 3.5 lbs/ft


Then again, larger access holes in the tube would make it lighter and simplify face install/adjustment. Maybe I just have send the fence to the machine shop for some 1/2" slots.

-kg

Please let me know if you have a chance to ask SS about the affect of the gap on the stop time.

http://www.metalreference.com/cartpix/HR-comm-stock-dim-21.gif

http://www.metalreference.com/cartpix/HR-comm-stock-dim-24.gif

[Scott Myers]

From a manufacturing ease and cost standpoint, the tube is probably welded cold roll, to be able to get the tolerances they required and so it doesn't' have any scale on it for easy finishing. While cold roll is more expensive, the extra expense for cold roll would be more than offset by the prep & finishing expenses on hot roll. But for weight purposes, the chart works fine. I estimate it to be .125" wall thickness. I can't measure it directly due to the powder coating. Mine measures 3" x 2", not 3" x 1.5" for weight estimations.

I don't think the internal gussets would make any difference at the edges if you happen to drop the fence from a short distance and it lands on an edge on the open side on .125" thick material. You would probably still bend the metal and trash the fence. And from a stability standpoint for small knocks and temperature variations, it's hard to beat the rectangular tube. And of course cold roll wouldn't have any internal thicker webbing in the corners serving as gussetts. :(

There is nothing wrong with being able to see screw heads in the face IMO. I've never understood the need people seem to have to hide the screws. Perhaps there is some technical reason for it, but I don't know what it could be. Frankly, I like the exposed screw heads better so that if you do happen to hit the fence with a blade, at least you know where the screw heads are at a glance, rather than guessing where the ends of the screws are buried inside the face. The other nice thing about this is you can put aux fences on easily since you can get to the holes and not have to drill and tap holes in the face itself, like partial rip fences or cross cut stops. It is just inherently more stable. While clean and pretty is nice, stabile and accurate is better! So I like the idea of the counterbored flat heads or cap screws. I'll not do this mod right away, but when it comes time to replace the faces, I'm all over it.

I like the idea of sending it to the machine shop to open up the holes! Perhaps grind the opposiing two faces... hmm. Trying to think of who I know with a Bridgeport... Man, I'm over the top now! :)

[Scott Myers]

OK. I've completed getting the fence trued in, for the most part. First let me say that I have to retract some of the opinions I voiced earlier about the stock SawStop fence. Indeed, the fence is a very good fence with plenty of adjustments options. Still not crazy about the slots on the bottom, but once you are used to them, have a good ball end 5mm T-Handle hex wrench and a small flashlight for sighting, it's no big deal. The fence faces on the other hand... not so hot. Which is why I got the fence trued in "for the most part". With better faces, it would be spot-on.

I started by pulling the faces off the fence and giving it a good inspection. As it turns out, the sides of the box section of the fence have been machined with a fly cutter, as you can still see light machining marks from a large fly cutter. So that's good news. It was funny to learn the SawStop's technical support did not even realize this fact. Even though the machined faces are then coated with powder coat, they measured true, flat and parallel in both axis within +/- .001", as far as I can tell with my gauges and calipers. Well close enough for woodworking anyway.

So I put the fence back on, WITHOUT faces installed, and tried taking measurements again. Still, things were all over the place when measured with a dial indicator from the mitre slots. "What is going on?", kept ringing in my head. After a second call to tech support and following their direction, I found that the plastic (UHMWPE?) pieces that grip the fence were riding just slightly off of the machined metal surafaces and were touching the fairly thick powder coat on the front rail, which can vary greatly by several thousandths in thickness. So I felt pretty foolish. So by the time you would measure the runout at the far end of the fence, it could be out just a few thousandths in one spot, then you move the fence to another and find it out .010" or more in another. So I lowered the screws to get those plastic pieces riding only on the metal. Still, I would get some variances of near .006". Finally, I adjusted the tightness of the fence when the handle is pressed down just a bit tighter. Bingo! That was the last piece of the puzzle. The fence would repeat every time to within .0015" at the far end when compared with the front end. So I then set the toe out to .005" away from the right mitre slot and double checked. Spot on +/- .001" every time I measured. Done... finally! :D Well, almost. :rolleyes:

THEN, I put the faces back on. Ugh! Lots of variances. Dips under where the screws are. You can actually feel the dips if you run your hand along the fence face rapidly. And no, I did not overtighten the screws. They are just snugged up enough that they won't move for that very reason. One face is thicker by .005" on one side near the middle. I had to move that side to the right side of the fence where it will be used much less. A few pieces of masking tape under this "bad" side, and I could get it closer. One face is definitely better than the other. The plastic edging on both of the faces hangs over in some spots of the face, so this has to be trimmed back so it won't interfere. Sawstop should replace these faces with industry standard solid plastic faces that has better tolerances than these wood faces. Unfortunately, they don't have plastic faces available currently. :( Guess I'll have to go buy some Jet faces and make the mods.

Other than the faces, I have to now agree Mark Singer that the fence is quite good. But this exercise certainly shows that no chain is stronger than its weakest link. Perhaps I'll have SawStop send me some new faces and give them a shot. Perhaps I just got some from a bad lot of wood.

Now the saw is completely set-up and I know where everything stands. :):D:D