SawStop TimeWarp

[Alex Carrera]

Wow, I don't know if this was a repeat or not, but the Discovery show Time Warp just had a guy sticking his finger into the blade of a SawStop filmed by ultra high speed cameras. I missed who the guy was, but the images were unbelievable. it's so amazing that the system stops the blade so quickly. I appologize if someone else posted about this already.

[Robert foster]

The guy is the inventor of the sawstop. Amazing

Bob

[Brian Clevenger]

I could get by with shoving the hot dog into the saw.

I don't pack the gear to put my hand on it, regardless of what it is suppose to do. What if I got unlucky?

[Alex Carrera]

"I don't pack the gear to put my hand on it"

Exactly. You could end up like that electric bike inventor, showing off and ending up on the ground after running into the side of a car. Or in this case, without the tip of your finger. Whichever way, I think that my next tablesaw - which will be my first cabinet saw - must be a sawstop. It's just too amazing, and would make me feel much more comfortable ( I know that's a bad word) using the table saw.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Along the same lines, here's piece of trivia for those NASCAR fans out there. To show that fire resistant suits were effective and should be mandatory for all drivers, Mark Martin (yeah, the big name driver) dawned one fo the fire resistant suits sat in a chair in the middle of the garage area, poured gasoline on himself, and lit himself on fire for ~30 seconds.

NASCAR soon thereafter mandated the suits.

[Mike OMelia]

Seen this (http://zedomax.com/blog/2008/07/05/bullet-proof-vest-creator-shoots-himself-for-testing/)? Now THAT is faith in your product. I do not doubt Sawstop technology. But it is expensive. Want to sell more? Have the CEO stick his finger into the blade. That comes nowhere close to the video above.

Mike

[Richard Lewis]

I have a hard time putting a dollar value on my fingers... The Sawstop saws sure seem appealing when you consider the alternative. I know far too many people that have had close calls.

If I was the CEO of the Sawstop company, I wouldn't be willing to sell the product unless I was willing to demonstrate it's effectiveness on myself...

[Jason Beam]

Just watched it myself .... i'd heard that steve had done it - but now i've seen him do it. Fascinating... i'm not sure if it sold me, yet, but i've been slowly warming to the idea.

[Mike OMelia]

Personally, and I know this sounds stupid (Sawstop counts on it), if I could justify the cost, I would get one. The full up cabinet saw is sweet, so sweet. I wish that now that the word was out, they would go back and offer the add-on systems they started with. I do not have the room for a cabinet saw and I am not interested in their "contractor's" saw. My Super Saw answers the mail.

Mike

[NICK BARBOZA]

Well I have my Sawstop cabinet saw and love it!! i saw the demo at a local store while mine was on order, but to see the brake go off at 2000 frames per second.... WOW!!!!!!! i was already sold, but now im sold even more!

[Mitchell Andrus]

Just wondering....

Not to start another Sawstop debate thread, but if the blade retracts, why stop the blade and ruin it and the brake?

Anyone find the Timewarp clip on-line? Maybe my answer is there.

[Tim Thomas]

Not to start another Sawstop debate thread, but if the blade retracts, why stop the blade and ruin it and the brake?


If I recall correctly, it is actually the force of rapidly stopping the blade that causes it to retract below the table. The chunk of aluminum in the brake releases and moves UP, into the path of the spinning blade, and when the blade slams into it the rotational force of the blade becomes the downward force that pushes the whole assembly DOWN below the table surface. I may be wrong about this, but that is the way I have heard it described before.

[jake benson]

I have a saw stop and it has probably been activated around ten times and I have destroyed two blades. nobody has set it off with a body part yet.

[Art Mulder]

I went digging, and here it is on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHrmvQKevfI).

I agree, I don't think I'd have the nerve to stick my own finger in there. Technology does fail on occasion.

Wow.

[Bill White]

I'm gonna try that on my Griz 0444Z.
Bill

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm gonna try that on my Griz 0444Z.
Bill

We await your report........Stubby.............Regards, Rod.

[Harley Lewis]

I am one of the fortunate guys that had a brief loosing battle with my unisaw and still have fingers, but with lots of stitches. My sawstop will be delivered next week, and the uni is for sale. I have used a table saw for 45 years and never a scratch until last week in a moment of not paying full attention.

Harley

[Greg Peterson]

I am seriously leaning towards the Sawstop contractor saw. I need to see one in person before I make up my mind. If they put as much effort into designing and building their contractor saw as they did with their cabinet saw, I'm sold.

I know the primary focus on Sawstop is the blade brake, but everything I have seen and read indicates that their tools are high quality.

[Rob Wright]

Did anyone else notice that he tested the saw with his left hand and his middle finger? Perhaps he did this consciously in case the sawstop failed (assuming he is left handed):confused:

[Mark Grotenhuis]

As a guy who recently lost the tip of his left middle finger, I can assure you it still sucks to lose, and yes I am right handed. Lost it on Sept. 11th with a Powermatic. It brings a whole new meaning to "never forget." Its funny how losing a finger immediately makes you go out and buy a Sawstop. When I bought my Powermatic 2 years ago I didn't even consider the Sawstop.

[Brent Smith]

I went digging, and here it is on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHrmvQKevfI).

I agree, I don't think I'd have the nerve to stick my own finger in there. Technology does fail on occasion.

Wow.

After watching this clip I've come to two conclusions....the man is an idiot, and the Discovery channel really didn't use much common sense in screening that. Some where out there is a fool or two that are going to try the same thing. I guess Mr. Gass didn't consider the monkey see= monkey do factor when he decided this was a good way to demonstrate his invention.

[mreza Salav]

After watching this clip I've come to two conclusions....the man is an idiot, and the Discovery channel really didn't use much common sense in screening that. Some where out there is a fool or two that are going to try the same thing. I guess Mr. Gass didn't consider the monkey see= monkey do factor when he decided this was a good way to demonstrate his invention.

Respectfully, I disagree here Brent. There are far too many things worse you'll see on a daily bases on TV that if you apply the same rule of "monkey see=monkey do" factor none of them should be broadcast (people shooting others, a driver jumping over 10 cars, etc etc).
You might argue what benefit this might have? Just look how many people are convinced it's a good device and how many fingers might be saved.
Hopefully the number of sales will be high enough to bring the cost and price down to make it not a luxury, but affordable to most woodworkers.

[Brent Smith]

Respectfully, I disagree here Brent. There are far too many things worse you'll see on a daily bases on TV that if you apply the same rule of "monkey see=monkey do" factor none of them should be broadcast (people shooting others, a driver jumping over 10 cars, etc etc).
You might argue what benefit this might have? Just look how many people are convinced it's a good device and how many fingers might be saved.
Hopefully the number of sales will be high enough to bring the cost and price down to make it not a luxury, but affordable to most woodworkers.

Hi Mo,

Respectfully, I'm going to have to disagree with you also. Your examples are staged fiction using stunt men (for the most part). I have no argument that it's a good product and will save many injuries. My only statement here is that for the guy to actually put his finger against a spinning blade, and for someone to actually air it, is to put it politically correct 'foolish'. When was the last time you saw (on air) an auto company run a car with a live driver into a wall to prove air bags or seat belts work? I think the hot dog was a marketing coup, but to actually use a finger to demonstrate the device........ I think it says more about the guy than the product.

[Alex Shanku]

I think it says more about the guy than the product.

Yeah, that the inventor has that much faith in the product. Powerful demonstration and quite effective and selling the efficacy of the safety feature.

[Garth Snyder]

Oh pooh pooh, this is more the illusion of peril rather than actual peril. The SawStop is always miraculous to watch, but this guy's finger wasn't in any real danger. He could indeed have done this on a Grizzly.

Why? Because all he did was tentatively slide the very tip of a finger pad into the path of the blade. If the brake had failed to trigger, he would have had a shallow kerf cut into the end of his finger. I doubt that he'd even have a scar. Not that it doesn't take some guts...


I have a saw stop and it has probably been activated around ten times and I have destroyed two blades. nobody has set it off with a body part yet.

This sounds surprisingly high to me, Jake - is it typical? Brakes and blades would be a significant proportion of TCO for this saw if so.

[Paul Steiner]

I would hope that Mr. Gass has enough faith in his invention to test it himself. If you are going to sell something stops people from losing fingers you better be willing to prove it yourself. This makes me think of Oliver and Wilbur taking their first flight...themselves, or Louis Pasture testing the rabies vaccine on his own son, and there are many more examples of this through out history.

[Glen Gunderson]

I would hope that Mr. Gass has enough faith in his invention to test it himself. If you are going to sell something stops people from losing fingers you better be willing to prove it yourself. This makes me think of Oliver and Wilbur taking their first flight...themselves, or Louis Pasture testing the rabies vaccine on his own son, and there are many more examples of this through out history.

That's like expecting car designers to sit in their cars during crash tests. Sure it'd show they're confident in their safety features, but I wouldn't fault them if they didn't want to risk something going wrong. Electronic safety features are never infallible. Saw Stop's mechanism greatly reduces the risk of injury, it doesn't nullify it.

[Anthony Anderson]

I have a saw stop and it has probably been activated around ten times and I have destroyed two blades. nobody has set it off with a body part yet.


Sounds like you had better quit throwing hot dogs at your SawStop Jake. At least when it's on:D;). Did you know that running an aluminum miter gauge into the spinning blade is not good either:). If you have really triggered the SawStop 10! times, then I am seriously concerned about your work habits. Work very carefully.

[Art Mulder]

...this guy's finger wasn't in any real danger. He could indeed have done this on a Grizzly.

Why? Because all he did was tentatively slide the very tip of a finger pad into the path of the blade. If the brake had failed to trigger, he would have had a shallow kerf cut into the end of his finger. I doubt that he'd even have a scar. Not that it doesn't take some guts...

Really? Are you sure -- really sure -- that it wouldn't have grabbed the skin and pulled his finger into the blade? I'm sure not going to roll those dice.

[Wilbur Pan]

Oh pooh pooh, this is more the illusion of peril rather than actual peril. The SawStop is always miraculous to watch, but this guy's finger wasn't in any real danger. He could indeed have done this on a Grizzly.

Why? Because all he did was tentatively slide the very tip of a finger pad into the path of the blade. If the brake had failed to trigger, he would have had a shallow kerf cut into the end of his finger. I doubt that he'd even have a scar. Not that it doesn't take some guts...

Seriously? If you are so sure about this, try it out on the next tablesaw you're using, and let us all know how it came out.


Really? Are you sure -- really sure -- that it wouldn't have grabbed the skin and pulled his finger into the blade? I'm sure not going to roll those dice.

Exactly.

Having just seen the episode of Time Warp with the SawStop demonstration, the thing that really amazed me is how much that blade flexed and wobbled when the brake mechanism went off. Not to mention that even in super slo-mo, the mechanism still looked like it dropped the blade instantaneously.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

You have to give Steve credit for being a marketing genius. Remember not long ago when this was just interesting technology that no one wanted to try on their saw? Pretty short turn around time for this one tool to pretty much dominate any serious conventional saw discussion.

I checked the Creek around noon, and when I checked again about midnight, there where 5 active SS threads, with new posts. Nothing else comes close!

[jake benson]

WE have two saw stops that are used by around 25 different guys they both are running around 3 hours a day. the brake has been activated by
aliminum laminates 3 times, aluminum sheet 2 times, a tape measure 1 time, and the most recent one the riving knife adjustment vibrated loose enough to contact blade. The brake has also gone off 2 -3 times with misadjustment of the blade size.

[Scott Myers]

I was talking to SS tech support yesterday on some questions regarding some adjustments on my SS. I asked about how their phones have been since the airing of this piece. He said they have been bombarded with sales inquiries since it ran. I think Mr. Gass is quite an genius, both technically and with serious business savvy. He certainly knows how to market his equipment. My hat is off to him for this marketing! Quite impactful.

Brent, if somone at home wants to stick their hand in the blade to test it because they "saw it on TV", then they deserve a minor Darwinian award. It's the people that are foolish (shall I dare say stupid) enough to try something they saw on TV that are indeed fools and deserve whatever consequences they get for trying whatever it is. We shouldn't concern ourselves with the copycat factor. It's a free country and I want it to remain free. It is simply impossible to protect people from themselves, nor should we try as a society. (Within reason) It is this kind of thinking that eventually degenerated down to the "do not eat" warning on dessicant bags in shipping containers or the "keep away from moving chain" warning I have seen on bicycles and other such useless warnings. I am sure you are well meaning Brent, but people will do stupid things no matter what you do. Especially young boys. Statistic: The highest death/injury rate amoung people is with 10-14 year old boys. Big copycat/dare factor involved here. The rate percentage is no higher now than it was 30 years ago, before mass media is what it is today. What does that mean as a generalized rule? People do stupid things and always will.

So I ask you to think about this; What would have been the alternatives with the Sawstop marketing piece? 1 - Show something as impactful as possible on TV (which they did) that shows just how much faith the inventor/CEO of Sawstop has in the technology that saves hands/fingers. Did he have to do it? No, but you have to admit it is incredibly impactful when he did it. A hot dog is one thing, a real human's finger is another. 2 - Not show it because we are afraid of the copycat factor in that 1 or 2 people will stick their finger in a saw blade. I guarantee that there will be a much larger number of people that will not lose their fingers because they bought a Sawstop due to seeing the inventor stick his finger into the moving blade on TV than those that will stick their fingers into a moving tablesaw blade on purpose because they saw this same piece and are just foolish/stupid. IMO Discovery did everyone a great service and thought it through very well indeed.


After watching this clip I've come to two conclusions....the man is an idiot, and the Discovery channel really didn't use much common sense in screening that. Some where out there is a fool or two that are going to try the same thing. I guess Mr. Gass didn't consider the monkey see= monkey do factor when he decided this was a good way to demonstrate his invention.

[David Keller NC]

"You have to give Steve credit for being a marketing genius."

Maybe - But I find his advertising to be disquieting and disturbing, particularly the flyer that's in the stores picturing a hand with a pair of scissors poised to cut off a finger. They say in marketing that there is no such thing as bad publicity, but that picture gives my stomach the heaves.

[Mike Heidrick]

"You have to give Steve credit for being a marketing genius."

Maybe - But I find his advertising to be disquieting and disturbing, particularly the flyer that's in the stores picturing a hand with a pair of scissors poised to cut off a finger. They say in marketing that there is no such thing as bad publicity, but that picture gives my stomach the heaves.

In a tablesaw accident (or many other WW blade accidents) you would be praying for a clean slice like you would get from scissors.

[Don Bullock]

...
I checked the Creek around noon, and when I checked again about midnight, there where 5 active SS threads, with new posts. Nothing else comes close!

It's also interesting to note that now that more of us own SawStops that these threads are becoming more positive about the technology. No, a SawStop isn't for everyone, but for many it's a great choice. Yes, I do have one because I thought it was the best table saw choice for me and the LOML agreed. Mine hasn't fired and I'm hoping that it never will. For me it's like an insurance policy that I hope that I never need to use.

[Bill Karow]

Can any of you who have had the SawStop mechanism activate comment on whether you checked alignment after replacing the blade and cartridge? I think the technology is impressive, and SawStop indicates it's designed to absorb the blade stop impact seamlessly (save for the loss of the blade and cartridge), but I'm curious if real world experience validates their position.

[Scott Myers]

Bill,

I would venture to guess it's fine afterward, as Jake Benson above describes two Sawstops that they use commercially that have fired their brakes 31 times cumulatively. Woah! Surely he would have mentioned something if there was a problem. I'd like to hear from Jake on this point too. An interesting question.


Can any of you who have had the SawStop mechanism activate comment on whether you checked alignment after replacing the blade and cartridge? I think the technology is impressive, and SawStop indicates it's designed to absorb the blade stop impact seamlessly (save for the loss of the blade and cartridge), but I'm curious if real world experience validates their position.

[Brian D Anderson]

All the shenanigans that result from SawStop discussions are going to go away when the other manufacturers come out with their own version of the technology. Just wait people . . .

[Kevin Groenke]

Can any of you who have had the SawStop mechanism activate comment on whether you checked alignment after replacing the blade and cartridge? I think the technology is impressive, and SawStop indicates it's designed to absorb the blade stop impact seamlessly (save for the loss of the blade and cartridge), but I'm curious if real world experience validates their position.


We have 2 saws with 15-20 combined stops since 12/04, no observed ill effects:the blade is still square to the miter gauge slot, .001 arbor runout (just checked), 90 and 45 tilt stops still on. I've always been somewhat surprised by how benign the stopping action is, one might expect that the saw would buck or jump, but it really isn't particularly dramatic, just CRACK and the blade is gone. I think the engineering of the "crumple zone" of the brake cartridge is key to minimizing drama and damage to the saw.

-kg

[mreza Salav]

All the shenanigans that result from SawStop discussions are going to go away when the other manufacturers come out with their own version of the technology. Just wait people . . .

My take on this is that this technology will eventually dominate the market. Not necessarily the SS itself, but this feature will be present on most saws (if not all) in a decade or 2. A good chance that it becomes mandatory (riving knife is become so very soon). People will be more and more willing to pay for this feature and it will also bring the price down, which means more people will buy it.

I think other brands made a mistake of not making a deal with SS to incorporate this feature on their saws. If they had done it, then all of them would be in the same league as SS, but not so now. For many people this feature makes the difference. I think other manufacturers will eventually go back (unless they come up with something substantially different that won't violate any patent issues). Time will tell...
http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/images/misc/progress.gif

[Scott Myers]

Companies are going to have a REAL hard time getting around Sawstop's technology patents, if they go at it from the same standpoint of design concept. Just think about the developement costs to head down a different path! It boggles the mind. The 2-belt intermediate jackshaft with pivot point to reduce moving mass and eliminate saw damage when the blade retracts and the microprocessor fired brake are the heart of the patents I am sure, although I have not researched the patents in detail. There are currently 4 US patents and 1 Taiwanese patent that coveres SawStop. Again, Mr. Gass is no fool when it comes to protecting his invention!

I am sure he is considering licensing his technology for X dollars per machine sold. I know I would, just to keep the competition from trying to come up with some other type of technology that accomplishes the same end result of protecting people. Someone else may come up with some new idea that works in a completely different way but protects people. Then it burden of proof would be on Mr. Gass in a court of law (which would drag on for years) to prove it does not infringe upon his patents. Better to sell the licenses than to have this happen. In the end, I believe selling the licenses would net him more profits in the long run, if the agreements to sell the licenses are made so they extend past the life of the patents.

I have wondered myself about the cost of ther SawStop. I know everyone complains about the "high cost" of a Sawstop, including myself when I paid for it. But when you REALLY look inside of it and realize the technology there, the extremely robust precision build of that monster trunnion assembly and the fantastic QC of the entire package, you do begin to realize that it really doesn't cost proportionally more than another high end saw (think Powermatic, General and similar) for what you are getting. When I looked at the cost of a PM2000 with 30" fence at $2600 and the SawStop at $3100-$3200 (granted, would need to buy the $300 mobile base for the Sawstop, where that is built into the PM2000), we are talking about a $500-$600 difference for the technology. (Then there are shipping costs, but tht is another issue depending upon where you live.) So if PM and General (General is more money than PM in the US), then where would they be in price if they came up with new saws and licensed the SawStop technology? I bet they wouldn't be less money than the Sawstop!!! From a business standpoint, General or Sawstop would be foolish to bring in saws with Sawstop technology and go after Sawstop on price. That is just not wise from a business standpoint.

It will be interesting to see what happens over time when this technology becomes more commonplace and almost "expected", like the riving knife now.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I wonder if it's possible to design a saw that uses the existing brake cartridge. is the cartridge where the 'microprocessor' is? if so, and that's where the IP (intellectual property) is, then just use the existing commodity shipping brake.

the mechanicals are something else - there would have to be ways to provide the same functionality without violating patents....

The big appeal of this saw is that it's not some cheapo saw with "gimmicky" technology....it's a serious table saw in build/quality, with a viable unique safety feature.

[Scott Myers]

Yep, the brake is where the microprocessor is. But without the hinged system and jackshaft, the forces will be MUCH higher on the trunnion assembly and stand a MUCH higher chance of damage the saw's trunnion, even with the crumple zone of the brake.

What "commodity shipping brake" do you refer to?

Probably a number of other ways to do the mechnicals, but it comes down to the "spirit" of the mechnicals and the intended function. It will be quite a trick to come up with something else that doesn't infringe in some way.

[Mike OMelia]

Of course it will! UL labs and insurance companies will require it.

And I am all for it.

Mike

[Brian Penning]

I don't understand the hand in the cooler part?
Increase the conductivity?

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

probably to numb it, in case it really hurts.

[Brent Smith]

So I ask you to think about this; What would have been the alternatives with the Sawstop marketing piece? 1 - Show something as impactful as possible on TV (which they did) that shows just how much faith the inventor/CEO of Sawstop has in the technology that saves hands/fingers. Did he have to do it? No, but you have to admit it is incredibly impactful when he did it. A hot dog is one thing, a real human's finger is another. 2 - Not show it because we are afraid of the copycat factor in that 1 or 2 people will stick their finger in a saw blade. I guarantee that there will be a much larger number of people that will not lose their fingers because they bought a Sawstop due to seeing the inventor stick his finger into the moving blade on TV than those that will stick their fingers into a moving tablesaw blade on purpose because they saw this same piece and are just foolish/stupid. IMO Discovery did everyone a great service and thought it through very well indeed.

It's not an either/or situation from my point of view Scott. I feel, and always will, that anyone putting their finger up to a spinning table saw blade (regardless of the technology involved) is an incredibly stupid thing to do. Yes the technology on this saw is probably the best out there right now for preventing injuries, but that still doesn't justify his actions on that show.

So Scott, I'll ask you to think about this.....1) Do you believe he did it from some altruistic belief that his invention will save injuries and is therefore willing to put his own life and limb on the line to prove it....2) Could it be that discovery wasn't interested in doing the segment without some 'jump the shark' angle.......3) Perhaps it is simply a way to increase sales and he's willing to lose a finger, or worse, to that end?

Regardless of whether you feel it was one of these reasons, or some other reason all together, I stand by my belief that sticking any part of the anatomy in the way of a spinning blade (or broadcasting it for that matter) does not show higher intelligence.

[Greg Peterson]

Some where out there is a fool or two that are going to try the same thing. I guess Mr. Gass didn't consider the monkey see= monkey do factor when he decided this was a good way to demonstrate his invention.

I think the cost of replacing the blade and brake assembly will prove to be an effective deterrent to all but the most daring/stupid.

[mreza Salav]

Brent,

That same reasoning you do applies to many other situations.
There are so many other dangerous things people do and you may call it stupid or idiot. Here is an example:
Consider bungee jumping: given the risk involved and the (extremely small probably of failure) if I am pressed hard to do one of the two, I'll choose to do this test than a bungee jumping from 300 feet (although I don't see ever doing any of them in my lifetime).
Now somebody doing a bungee jumping is doing it for the pleasure of him/herself or to prove to others how brave(?!) s/he is. Here, there is at least some more reasonable benefit to public than the former (aside from more sale!).

[Kevin Groenke]

I once heard Mr Gass tell of the first time he intentionally put his finger into a spinning blade. That time it wasn't for TV, marketing or PR, but in order to obtain a dataset that TRULY represented the electrical signature of "man into machine". Apparently there was a glitch with the timing and the datalogger failed to capture the data, so he had to do it twice. I can't imagine it would ever get easy, it is just not something one's body/mind should willingly do.

Is it irresponsible to have done for Discover? I don't know, I've seen a lot worse on Jacka$$. I'm actually more concerned about the failure to use a pushblock, reaching behind the blade, the absence of a bladeguard, etc... that stuff could lead one to believe that safe practices aren't important.

-kg

[Dan Friedrichs]

It's not an either/or situation from my point of view Scott. I feel, and always will, that anyone putting their finger up to a spinning table saw blade (regardless of the technology involved) is an incredibly stupid thing to do.



Every activity in life comes inherent with risk. Many people jump out of planes for the thrill of it. There is certainly a risk of injury/death there. Is that also an incredibly stupid thing to do?

I entirely disagree that Dr. Gass did anything stupid at all. He has invented an amazing machine that will save countless fingers (and lives). Demonstrating it himself is just a testament to how effective the technology is. While there is certainly some small risk the device would not fire when he touched it, that risk is very small. I would wager that you put yourself at considerable more risk driving around in your car that you do touching a SawStop blade.

Such statements such as "Doing X is ALWAYS an incredibly stupid thing to do" are shortsighted, fail to consider the individuality and totality of the situation, and ultimately prevent forward thinking and progress. If Dr. Gass hadn't been willing to challenge the idea that putting your finger into a table saw would always lead to a bad outcome, we wouldn't have the SawStop.

It'll be the first cabinet saw I buy. IMHO, he could get away with selling it for 4x as much and still have a huge market.

[Brent Smith]

Mo...Kevin...Dan.....you're all right. It's not an incredibly stupid thing to put your finger into a spinning blade. I think i'll retire from this discussion and go to the shop and see if I can stop a 3" Forstner bit with a weiner ;).

[Craig Johnson]

"It's not an either/or situation from my point of view Scott. I feel, and always will, that anyone putting their finger up to a spinning table saw blade (regardless of the technology involved) is an incredibly stupid thing to do. Yes the technology on this saw is probably the best out there right now for preventing injuries, but that still doesn't justify his actions on that show."

I agree with opinions on both sides of this. But I must agree with the above statement. My wife and I watched this episode and we both cringed and turned away until he was done. I understand his way of testing and believing in his own design but they could have gotten the message across with the hot dog or some other device.
Seems like he wanted to go for some shock value as well.
"Hey is that a Sawstop? Let me put my finger in it and find out"......

[Gregg Feldstone]

Where is the link to the video?

[jake benson]

The two saws we have still work great as far as accuracy and they have been fired about ten times between the two.

The only complaint I have is the double drive belt setup. The belts are serpentine style and they don't last very long. the belt is about an inch wide with small grooves in it and they collect sawdust and wear the belts out.

[Scott Myers]

Jake,

I don't think you meant serpentine style, as they only go around 2 pulleys each and don't make a complex path around multiple pullys, like a car. I think what you meant to say is they are "poly-V" style belts. The point is taken about the higher wear rate over a standard single V, as a poly-V would indeed tend to hold more dust and chips due to its flat wide nature. In my home shop environment, they will probably last a very long time. I can see where in a commercial environment, it might be a bit more nuisance than standard V belts. But of course, the lower insurance rates should more than offset the nuisance factor, or at least I would think so. :D

So how many hours do you think you get out of the belts? How many hours per day do they run, days per week, etc? Type of wood run? This would be good info to know. Please share!

Scott


The two saws we have still work great as far as accuracy and they have been fired about ten times between the two.

The only complaint I have is the double drive belt setup. The belts are serpentine style and they don't last very long. the belt is about an inch wide with small grooves in it and they collect sawdust and wear the belts out.

[Brian D Anderson]

Companies are going to have a REAL hard time getting around Sawstop's technology patents, if they go at it from the same standpoint of design concept. Just think about the developement costs to head down a different path! It boggles the mind. The 2-belt intermediate jackshaft with pivot point to reduce moving mass and eliminate saw damage when the blade retracts and the microprocessor fired brake are the heart of the patents I am sure, although I have not researched the patents in detail. There are currently 4 US patents and 1 Taiwanese patent that coveres SawStop. Again, Mr. Gass is no fool when it comes to protecting his invention!

I am sure he is considering licensing his technology for X dollars per machine sold. I know I would, just to keep the competition from trying to come up with some other type of technology that accomplishes the same end result of protecting people. Someone else may come up with some new idea that works in a completely different way but protects people. Then it burden of proof would be on Mr. Gass in a court of law (which would drag on for years) to prove it does not infringe upon his patents. Better to sell the licenses than to have this happen. In the end, I believe selling the licenses would net him more profits in the long run, if the agreements to sell the licenses are made so they extend past the life of the patents.


Everyone assumes that because Mr. Gass is a patent attorney, that he must have his invention completely protected. The other companies have their own patent attorneys who might be better at their job. What if there is a previous patent from the 70's that covers the sawstop technology? And in terms of costs . . . what if they all got together and joint funded the development of a new technology? Hmmmmmmmm . . . .

[Scott Myers]

Brent,

I certainly respect your opinion and you present your case well. Your comments are indeed well thought out.

I showed the spot to my mother-in-law (who has concerns about the new saw around my young boys, and the key reason behind my purchase of a SawStop) and she had the same reaction as you and your wife. She couldn't watch at that point of the video, even though I told her he wouldn't be hurt and there was no cut or blood. So you are absolutely right, this is the "jump the shark" angle at ratings by discovery.

So how many of those 3 points do I believe are accurate? All three, of course. I'm an engineer, but have worked in sales for 23 years in industrial and mobile hydraulics. Being in sales, as I watched the piece, my mind went to a thought like, "This is marketing genius!" And it is. So point three is spot on. But as someone else pointed out, he has done the test in private to collect the data before and prove it works, probably in a similar manner as shown on Discovery, where he just sort of touches the side of the tip of a very sharp blade, knowing full well his risk is minimal. So point 1 is true too. Of course Discovery is going "wow. This nut is going to stick his hand in the blade. Way cool for the "heart attack" factor, like watching a car wreck and pump up our ratings. Therefore, point 3 is also true. So it truly was a symbiotic business relationship between Discovery and SawStop. Both got what they wanted. Discovery's ratings... as here we are still talking about it; and SawStop's sales... as their phones are still ringing off the hook. And with those increased sales, many people will save their hand/fingers that would have otherwise had them cut-off/injured. So while it seems "nuts" on the surface to many, the over arching truth is the video will save people's hands that otherwise would not have known about the technology.

But I do understand your "squeamish" factor. It does make one cringe to say the least. But it was supposed to. And no, we don't want to watch a video of you trying to stop that Forstner bit! :eek::D

Great comments Brent. Really.


.....1) Do you believe he did it from some altruistic belief that his invention will save injuries and is therefore willing to put his own life and limb on the line to prove it....2) Could it be that discovery wasn't interested in doing the segment without some 'jump the shark' angle.......3) Perhaps it is simply a way to increase sales and he's willing to lose a finger, or worse, to that end?

[Scott Myers]

No, but I bet Mr. Gass used at least one patent attorney!

In the end, all the attorneys would get rich, as they would drag it out for years under the guise of "Doing what is best for their clients"! As usual. :(


Everyone assumes that because Mr. Gass is a patent attorney, that he must have his invention completely protected. The other companies have their own patent attorneys who might be better at their job. What if there is a previous patent from the 70's that covers the sawstop technology? And in terms of costs . . . what if they all got together and joint funded the development of a new technology? Hmmmmmmmm . . . .

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Patents expire. so I doubt that patents from the 70's, barring any 'revisions', would still be valid. I deal with the patent attornies at my company. one of them once told me, "a patent is only good once it's been defended". Also - if they were going to go after Mr. Gass, I think they would have done so when SS was still 'new' and money would have been a problem. Seems like he'd be able to put up a better fight now...

"There are two types of lawyers. Yours and mine". - my favorite uncle

[Mark Singer]

If your not using a SAwStop it may be difficult to put your finger on the patent issue :rolleyes:

[Brent Smith]

Brent,

I certainly respect your opinion and you present your case well. Your comments are indeed well thought out.


So while it seems "nuts" on the surface to many, the over arching truth is the video will save people's hands that otherwise would not have known about the technology.

But I do understand your "squeamish" factor. It does make one cringe to say the least. But it was supposed to. And no, we don't want to watch a video of you trying to stop that Forstner bit! :eek::D

Great comments Brent. Really.

Hi Scott,

Just to clarify, I didn't post about watching it with my wife, that was Craig Johnson. Also, sorry for butchering your quote, I just wanted to give a frame of reference to this post.

I think we are both on the same page as far as the saw's ability to prevent injury goes, and as to the need to let people know about it. As a matter of fact, a good friend of mine, whose opinion I respect, bought one not so long ago and is thoroughly impressed by it.

While I respect and understand your, and other's, feelings about this video, I'm sorry but nothing will change my mind about how I view this. I'm one of those guys that remarks when I see something dangerous done on an instructional video....why, because though I may know it's not the smartest move, a newbie won't and may attempt it himself (herself). I went a bit overboard with the monkey see analogy, but someone viewing the Discovery scene may get a false sense of security around his new Sawstop and lead himself into accidents that could easily be prevented. It's really great that this technology has been implemented, but I don't think people should take it for granted, anymore than a splitter or riving knife should be.....Murphy's Law will catch up with them. Any and all safety factors on a TS can be demonstrated without putting limb at risk. A perfect example of this is on Hendrik Varju's TS DVD. He replicates kickback using a sheet of foam in place of a piece of wood. Think of it as the kickback hot dog :). The hot dog has made very clear how the Sawstop works and the safety factor you're buying with it. To actually put ones hand into the blade (or for that matter use real wood to demonstrate kickback)....well I've already voiced my opinion on that!!!


Now to the important news........The Forstner won, but the hot dog will still see use as tropical fish food :D ;).

[Scott Myers]

Brent,

I am glad we can agree to disagree peacefully! As it should be.

Woops. Sorry about who was watching with who. :o Reading and typing too fast clearly!

I had a feeling the Forstner would win out. Just a gut hunch. ;)

Scott

[Bill Karow]

We have 2 saws with 15-20 combined stops since 12/04, no observed ill effects:the blade is still square to the miter gauge slot, .001 arbor runout (just checked), 90 and 45 tilt stops still on.

Kevin, thanks for the real world experience. That is indeed impressive that their technology works like they say it will with repeated firings! Judging from the slo-mo video, it appears to be quite violent so it's also interesting to read your description of the event in real time.

I'm also interested reading both sides of the argument on using the video of the real finger incident. My first reaction was an uncomfortable flashback to the series "That's Incredible", in particular the episodes where one man attempted to jump into the air to avoid the sports car racing towards him, and the episode where another man ran through a tunnel of fire. In the sports car episode, the guy jumped a split second too late and drove his leg through the windshield, effectively severing it at the knee (it spun mostly around, too graphic for TV but covered in detail in subsequent lawsuits). In the tunnel of fire episode, the show's staff insisted on increasing the length of the tunnel for drama, and the participant (victim) fell down partway through and burned his fingers to stumps and very nearly died from smoke inhalation. Both incidents led to the show's downfall. Well, that and Fran Tarkenton's on-air persona...

In this case, the SawStop guy knew firsthand what he was doing. It was great drama, but it was also an awesome marketing trick. We can't rely on TV to present responsible programming, we have to rely on them letting us know what's coming up so we have the option of changing channels. For example, no WAY my young sons see that demo!

But there is more dangerous power tool usage nearly every day on TV. Virtually all of the home renovation ambush shows have a tented workshop and they often have homeowners with zero experience using tools. On several episodes I've seen people pulling plywood through a portable table saw. If they've never used one, do you think they know what they're doing enough to avoid causing a nasty kickback? Many more examples come to mind, but my point is that there are bad examples everywhere on TV and it's up to us to know enough to keep ourselves safe, and to ensure that if our kids (or friends, or other loved ones) see the bad examples, we take time to point out the dangers.

[John Ricci]

The video was an impressive display but what truly bothers me is that no machine is perfect and one day there will be a Sawstop failure resulting in a serious injury. That is the day the Sawstop becomes merely a very expensive Taiwan saw. There is no technology that can replace common sense and caution. My .02Cdn.

J.R.

[Greg Peterson]

I think anything that creates a dialog about table saw safety is good.

[Stan Urbas]

If you want to see it, go out to youtube.com and search on sawstop. Choose the link that says "time warp"