Lasering Journals - Is it PVC or not?

[Colleen Williams]

Hi Gang,

I have a question for those of you more experienced than I. I know that we can't do PVC in the lasers. What I am wondering is how you can tell whether or not something is PVC if it is not labeled. I have been looking at doing some journals (like the sample on the Epilog website). I know that they say they used some dollar store journals but I am concerned about the whole PVC thing. Obviously using leather would make this a moot point, however, I am trying to do a little less expensive option as well.

I appreciate any input anyone might have.

Thanks!

Colleen Williams
:confused:

[Joe Pelonio]

Best to be safe rather than sorry with PVC. I have spent a lot of time looking at manufacturer websites looking for the MSDS sheet, or even calling them to find out if a particular material contains PVC. It may be difficult to find the manufacturer if not on the label, sometimes you might have to contact a store manager and ask them where it came from.

When you do find the MSDS look for Poly Vinyl Chloride in the ingredients,
if not listed look to see if the combustion results in HCL (Hydrogen Chloride)
gas. If so, you cannot use it.

[Peck Sidara]

Colleen,

As Joe has stated, only way to confirm is to get the MSDS from the manufacturer. This can be difficult to do.

As for our sample of the month, we used faux leather and confirmed that it doesn't contain PVC.

I've heard but haven't personally confirmed that moleskin jounals do contain PVC and should be avoided.

HTH,

[Tor Amundson]

My experience, your mileage may vary:

I picked up a few actual Molskine brand journals. There are three types: soft-cover, traditional cover and paper cover.

The paper covers etched fine but the cover becomes very weak as a result. The contrast is low, and attempts to color-fill cause paint leaching around. Therefore the paper covered versions are safe to work on, but not a good choice for a saleable product.

The soft and traditional Molskine covers etch beautifully, but I fear they have something PVC-ish in them. Not only did the process make that scary-brownish smoke, but the two screws of my vector table's outlet port that were in the line of the escaping smoke have rusted. They were shiny and new a week ago, and after etching five journals, the two screw tips that were visibly in the air path are rusted over, while the other screws on the other side of the table were still fine. The aluminum vector grid seems OK, though.

While this isn't 100% confirmation, it's enough for me to put up a "No Moleskines" rule in my lasering shop.

[Dave Johnson29]

I know that we can't do PVC in the lasers.


Colleen and others,

We can do PVC you just need an extraction system to vent the gases outside. The amount of gases generated is quite tiny and mixed with a 600 cubic feet per minute extractor the concentrations of harmful stuff would be very slight.

Here is a link to a description and some pics of the one I built. Nothing fancy and less than 200-bucks all up.

http://www.lasercottage.com/links/admin_extractor.htm

[Scott Shepherd]

Don't build your own extraction unit unless your machine is out of warranty. Lasering PVC material in a new laser will void your warranty.

Keep that in mind before trying to figure out a safe way to do it.

[Joe Pelonio]

Most, if not all of us use an extraction system. The amount of PVC in certain materials, such as sign vinyl film and perhaps Molskine may be small enough that it wouldn't harm anyone by the time the fumes dissipated, however many people are in a home or business where the fumes could in fact enter a neighbor's open window. When I was in a business park the fire department was called several times due to a complaint of "burning plastic". If I had been cutting PVC sheet such as Sintra or Komatex there could have been illness or death. Scott is right about the warranty, and I have seen a laser used to cut PVC. It was two years old, one job cutting 1/8" Sintra destroyed it.

[Steve Clarkson]

Colleen and others,

We can do PVC you just need an extraction system to vent the gases outside. The amount of gases generated is quite tiny and mixed with a 600 cubic feet per minute extractor the concentrations of harmful stuff would be very slight.

Here is a link to a description and some pics of the one I built. Nothing fancy and less than 200-bucks all up.

http://www.lasercottage.com/links/admin_extractor.htm


OK, Dave.......that remote is the coolest thing I've seen on the Creek all week!!!! Now I have to run out and get one (or two) tomorrow!

One question though.......your extraction pipe looks like PVC.....I thought they had to be metal due to static electricity.....and thus.....fires!

[art baylor]

Since I sell furniture, a quick comment on faux leather (pleather). It's plastic. Cheap stuff is vinyl (PVC). Better stuff (like Durahide) is polyurethane. Newer is polyurethane with 15% leather particles added. All are used in looks-like-leather products.

Art

[Bob McGinn]

Dave,

Great exhaust system. Also liked the GL1800 part included in one of the shots.

[Dave Johnson29]

Great exhaust system. Also liked the GL1800 part included in one of the shots.

Hi Bob,

A keen eye, :):) I wondered about that and thought about going out and removing it and taking another pic. Decided I would leave it.

About the best motorcycle I have ever ridden and I have been riding and racing almost my entire life. Amazing piece of Engineering.

[Dave Johnson29]

that remote is the coolest thing I've seen on the Creek all week!!!! Now I have to run out and get one (or two) tomorrow!


Hi Steve,
:D:D Yup, know what you mean. Mine is actually a Stanley one from the local hardware store I bought a few years back to turn off Christmas lights at night. I could have used a timer but I saw that key-fob button and was hooked. Woohooo the power to control!! :eek::eek: You might want to check the local HD or Lowes and see what they have too.



One question though.......your extraction pipe looks like PVC.....I thought they had to be metal due to static electricity.....and thus.....fires!


In **MY OPINION**...
A fire from static electricity might only a be problem if there is readily burnable material whooshing through the pipe like sawdust and other even more flammable dust like sawing or routing acrylic etc.

You can almost entirely remove the risk of static electricity by running a Grounding wire through the pipe but because my exhaust is smoke and fumes I have not bothered. You can get large diameter aluminum grounding wire at a DishTV installation-type place, maybe even HD or Lowes I have not looked. It is about 1/8" diameter and around 25ft rolls. It is low cost and annealed (soft) and thus easy to manipulate. It is intended for grounding lightning strikes near the dish.

The other aspect of static electricity is getting a zap from it when you touch the metal parts of the extraction system. That too can be taken care of with a grounding wire, but again I have not bothered. The woodworking guys have to empty the filter bags at some time whereas mine does not even have one as there is nothing to filter.

OK all the above is **my opinion** and I may be entirely wrong so do ANY or ALL of any of the above at your own risk.

[Dave Johnson29]

Don't build your own extraction unit unless your machine is out of warranty.

Lasering PVC material in a new laser will void your warranty.


Hi Scott,

Not sure if you mean those two sentences together or individually. If you are suggesting your laser manufacturer says adding your own extraction system to a new laser will void the warranty, then your laser manufacturer needs to check this out...

"Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act (also called the Federal Trade Commission Improvement Act) legislation enacted in 1975 for the protection of consumers."

[Steve Clarkson]

Hehe....nice disclaimer. Don't worry....I went the metal route to be on the safe side.

BTW.....I bought TWO of those remotes this morning! And they were only $40.....not $47! Woohoo!

[Scott Shepherd]

Dave, I was implying you shouldn't laser PVC in a machine that's still under warranty. No connection with the exhaust system you built.

It states clearly in the owners manuals of several builders that if you laser PVC in your machine you will void the warranty. That's all I was referring to.

[Dave Johnson29]

Hehe....nice disclaimer. Don't worry....I went the metal route to be on the safe side.

BTW.....I bought TWO of those remotes this morning! And they were only $40.....not $47! Woohoo!


Hi Steve,

I am lazy and gluing PVC was an easier option. :)

Two switches??? Hmm, that would make you twice as lazy as me. :D:D:D

[Dave Johnson29]

It states clearly in the owners manuals of several builders that if you laser PVC in your machine you will void the warranty. That's all I was referring to.

Hi Scott,

I figured that was what you probably mean, but the Warranty bullying that some companies try gets me hot to quote the M-M Act. :cool:

[James Stokes]

I laser my check book covers, I do not know if they are pvc but they laser great.

[Dave Johnson29]

I laser my check book covers, I do not know if they are pvc but they laser great.


Hi James,

Great idea and if you mean the freebie ones covers the bank gives you, they would almost certainly be PVC.

[Ryan O'Hara]

Joe, when the fire department was called did they give you a hard time about the venting of exhaust gases from your laser? I am curious if there were any legal ramifications because of the 911 call?

[Dave Johnson29]

I have seen a laser used to cut PVC. It was two years old, one job cutting 1/8" Sintra destroyed it.


Hi Joe,

I take what you are saying about others smelling the fumes, but a death would be very unlikely given the low concentrations and then dispersion into the air before reaching the other humans.

Just thinking about this. The most worrisome fume given off by the burning PVC is likely to create Hydrochloric Acid when combined with moisture in the air and that indeed could wreck a machine. But, if they had an extraction system that was removing the fumes before they could form the acid then there should be little to no damage to the machine.

At 60% fan-power, my extractor pulls smoke horizontally no more than 1/4" above the cutting surface and straight into the exhaust system. That would give the offending material no time at all to create the acid inside the box. I will see if I can take some pics.

[Robert Ray]

I have cut PVC, I know...don't do it. Almost everything plastic you can buy at an office supply store is either PVC or Styrene.

PVC cuts with an orange powder residue. Litmus paper tests (my swiming pool PH kit) with this powder and a drop of water show strong acid!


-Robert

[Gary Hair]

One question though.......your extraction pipe looks like PVC.....I thought they had to be metal due to static electricity.....and thus.....fires!

When I worked at a local Woodcraft store there were a lot of people making that same statement. I did some research, lots actually, and couldn't find one single shop fire that was a result of static buildup in pvc pipe - not even any that *might* have been.

The conditions that need to be met in order for such a fire to start are not possible in most small shops, and are very rarely met in larger shops. There needs to be a very specific ratio of fuel (sawdust, etc.) to air or the fire can't start. Wood chips from a planer are too large and you can't sand enough to generate enough fine dust that might ignite. Couple those conditions with a spark that needs to have perfect timing and you just don't have any real possibility of a fire happening. The conditions in a grain silo explosion are very different that what we can generate with a dust collector so don't use that as an "example" of what can happen.

What is more likely is to have metal fabrication producing sparks combined with sawdust production and you will end up with a fire in your dust collector although that's pretty unlikely as well.

Gary

[Dave Johnson29]

PVC cuts with an orange powder residue. Litmus paper tests (my swiming pool PH kit) with this powder and a drop of water show strong acid!


Hi Robert,

Not to beat up too much on this subject but what you measured the pH of was after the smoke debris had mixed with the humidity in the air. An extractor system has the smoke debris whisked outside and it gets to mix with any humidity on the trip out and when finally outside.

I am not disputing what you say that it was acidic, merely trying to indicate that cutting PVC with an adequate extractor is probably quite safe to the humans.

If one wanted to get really serious you could buy a thing called and air scrubber. I used to design them for factories, check out Cera International. Ain't nothing worth talking about coming out of one of those suckers, well other than clean air that is and some pretty interesting sludge from the bottom. I guess I could design a tiny one. :)

[Richard Rumancik]

. . . What I am wondering is how you can tell whether or not something is PVC if it is not labeled.

If you do a light lasering of the surface, PVC will generally turn the surface a goldish (or orange color.) This usually happens with PVC sign vinyl as well. So if it turns gold it is probably PVC, but I would not go so far as to say ALL types of PVC will do this. So don't assume it is NOT PVC if you don't see any gold.

Whether you decide to mark PVC or not is up to you. Cutting thick PVC is risky to you and the equipment, but marking probably generates very low amounts of HCl. However, some people have very strong feelings on the matter and won't touch it at all.

If you want to see some examples try a google search with +"Synrad" +"marking PVC" or else go to the Synrad site and search there.

Here is a link to wire marking:

http://www.laserproi.com/en/mark_showcase_detail.php?ID=English_071022230005