Small box glue up question

[Philip Florio]

I have a 4" x 6" box that I'm ready to assemble. The top, bottom and sides are less then 1/2" of red oak. The bottom fits into a rabbit cut on the sides to slip it in.

My question is for the top, I'm guessing that yellow glue won't be enough and that I need to use dowels to secure it in place. I'm going to have to use it on the router to round the top to blend into the side. I was thinking of turning some hardwood to make a 1/8" dowel but I need and accurate method to align the top to the sides when drilling out the dowel holes, and I need the dowels to be short enough in the top so they don't show through when rounded off.

May someone suggest a method, or do you think that the glue would be strong enough.

Thanks,
Phil

[Jim Kountz]

If Im understanding you correctly then glue should be all you need if the lid has a good tight fit to start with.

[Philip Florio]

The lid will just sit on the top on the sides. There's no end grain, just surface to surface.

Phil


If Im understanding you correctly then glue should be all you need if the lid has a good tight fit to start with.

[Chris Padilla]

Any pics, Phil? I'm unclear what you're asking....

[Philip Florio]

This is the top resting on the box.

Phil


Any pics, Phil? I'm unclear what you're asking....

[Chris Padilla]

So you plan to secure the top and then cut it off to form a lid (a "bandsaw box" so to speak)?

I think glue would be plenty but one worry I have is glue leaking inside the box and potentially causing you grief. You could line worrisome spots with blue tape so that when you slice the top off, you can simply remove the tape and have clean joints with no squeeze out.

[Philip Florio]

Thanks Chris,

The plan was to have the top just with rounded tops to meet the sides. Just concerned that when using the router the vibration might break the glue bond.

I'll do that with blue tape, plus I'll add the bottom into it's rabbit slot after so I'll get a look to make sure the glue leak is minimal.

Thanks again,
Phil


So you plan to secure the top and then cut it off to form a lid (a "bandsaw box" so to speak)?

I think glue would be plenty but one worry I have is glue leaking inside the box and potentially causing you grief. You could line worrisome spots with blue tape so that when you slice the top off, you can simply remove the tape and have clean joints with no squeeze out.

[Lee Schierer]

Because your lid will see different moisture levels on the outside than on the inside, the lid may tend to cup which will not allow your box to close tightly. Applying finish inside and out side will lessent that problem, but may not eliminate it fully.

I've made similar boxes with a free floating lid inside the side pieces. I use a rabbeted edge on all sides of the lid and a groove in the pieces that surround the lid to accept the small tab of the lid. I've never had that type of lid warp. Here's what I mean. This is a 12 x 12 box made of 1/2" pine.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/cutterbox.jpg

You could still round over the edges with your router.

[David Keller NC]

Philip - If I'm interpreting your intent correctly, you plan to glue the top inside the walls of the sides, round over the top of the sides with a router, then bandsaw the box to form the lid. If that's correct, and you're using red oak, the box will not last very long.

Red oak is not a very stable wood, and moisture content changes will cause either a) the top will explode the sides - that's the most likely outcome if the corner joints are un-reinforced miters or b) the top will crack along the grain in one or more places.

There's a relatively easy way to get around this - make a groove around the top inside of the sides, and make a similar groove around the top so that the tongue that's left fits into the groove in the sides. What's exposed on the top can be rounded, beveled, or if you plan the joinery carefully, left flush with the top of the sides.

[Rob Luter]

I've made similar boxes with a free floating lid inside the side pieces. I use a rabbeted edge on all sides of the lid and a groove in the pieces that surround the lid to accept the small tab of the lid.

Lee - When using this approach on a fingerjointed box as pictured, what tool do you use to make the stopped grooves on two sides of the box, or do you just let the grooves show at the finger joints on two sides?

- Rob

[Jack Camillo]

You should pick up the most recent (Dec 08) issue of Fine Woodworking magazine. It has an article on doing a box like you are doing. Excellent pictures and instructions there, and you can easily modify to meet your own style and size, etc. In this case, I think it would be worth the 8 bucks.

[Philip Florio]

The plan was to glue the top on the sides and to use the table saw.

The sides are 7/16, how much should I leave behind to cut the lid by hand for red oak.

Phil


Philip - If I'm interpreting your intent correctly, you plan to glue the top inside the walls of the sides, round over the top of the sides with a router, then bandsaw the box to form the lid. If that's correct, and you're using red oak, the box will not last very long.

Red oak is not a very stable wood, and moisture content changes will cause either a) the top will explode the sides - that's the most likely outcome if the corner joints are un-reinforced miters or b) the top will crack along the grain in one or more places.

There's a relatively easy way to get around this - make a groove around the top inside of the sides, and make a similar groove around the top so that the tongue that's left fits into the groove in the sides. What's exposed on the top can be rounded, beveled, or if you plan the joinery carefully, left flush with the top of the sides.

[David Keller NC]

Philip - I'm not sure I understand your question - 7/16" thick would certainly be enough to let in a 3/16" deep by 3/16" wide groove for the top. And yeah, if you glue the top to the sides the box will self-destruct eventually - anywhere from a couple of days if the humidity swings are large (like leaving it outside) to perhaps a year if it's kept inside. Generally, the humidity swings inside a house between winter heating season and spring rains is more than enough to cause wood movement problems.

[Philip Florio]

This is for the depth of cut on the table saw to split the box into two. I'm wondering with red oak how deep the cut should be so then I can finally separate it by hand cutting.

Phil


Philip - I'm not sure I understand your question - 7/16" thick would certainly be enough to let in a 3/16" deep by 3/16" wide groove for the top. And yeah, if you glue the top to the sides the box will self-destruct eventually - anywhere from a couple of days if the humidity swings are large (like leaving it outside) to perhaps a year if it's kept inside. Generally, the humidity swings inside a house between winter heating season and spring rains is more than enough to cause wood movement problems.

[David Keller NC]

Philip - If you've got a bandsaw, that's what I'd use to split the box in two - it's way safer than a table saw. If you don't have one, I'd set the depth of cut no deeper than 5/16". Red oak splits very easily, and you don't want that to happen when you're running the box over the saw - the pieces would kick back at extremely high velocity - enough to break bones if you're in the line of fire.

[Philip Florio]

David,

I have a Rikon 14" band saw, wouldn't I get straighter cut with the table saw? It seems that with the band saw I would have a lot of sanding to do. I have a drum sander but I would think that the 7/16" walls might get damaged running under the sander.

Phil


Philip - If you've got a bandsaw, that's what I'd use to split the box in two - it's way safer than a table saw. If you don't have one, I'd set the depth of cut no deeper than 5/16". Red oak splits very easily, and you don't want that to happen when you're running the box over the saw - the pieces would kick back at extremely high velocity - enough to break bones if you're in the line of fire.

[Cary Swoveland]

You should pick up the most recent (Dec 08) issue of Fine Woodworking magazine. It has an article on doing a box like you are doing. Excellent pictures and instructions there, and you can easily modify to meet your own style and size, etc. In this case, I think it would be worth the 8 bucks.
I agree. That article was written by Doug Stowe, who has written several books on box-making. The technique he describes in the article for joining the top is the one David Keller suggested. Stowe suggests cutting a groove on the inside of the four side pieces, 1/8" from the top edge. Doing this on the tablesaw, with a standard blade, gives you a groove 1/8" wide 1/8" from the top. Then do the same on the outside of the top piece, making the groove 1/8" from the bottom. You then slip the 1/8" wide tenon you've made on the bottom of top piece into the 1/8" grooves on the side pieces, and glue the corners of the sides.

To keep the top from moving (or rattling), you can put a dab of glue at the midpoint of each end of the top (so that a line between the dabs is in the direction of the grain), but you cannot glue the top all around, for reasons explained by others: with changes in humidity, the top will change in (cross-grain) width, whereas the lengths of the sides (with the grain) will hardly change at all, likely resulting in the top being split or the corners of the sides being pulled apart.

Cary

[David Keller NC]

"I have a Rikon 14" band saw, wouldn't I get straighter cut with the table saw? It seems that with the band saw I would have a lot of sanding to do. I have a drum sander but I would think that the 7/16" walls might get damaged running under the sander."

Yeah - you definitely don't want to run the pieces under a drum sander. The sides of the box that are parallel with the drum will get badly blown out unless a very light pass is made. The best tool for this job is a block plane, but you can also do a reasonable job with one of those silicone rubber sanding blocks and careful hand-sanding, checking where the gaps are frequently.

Regarding the bandsaw, that depends. If you're skilled at using a bandsaw, have it thoroughly tuned, and use a wide blade (like 3/8" or 1/2"), and are extremely careful to get the table 90 degrees from the side of the blade, you can get a very, very straight cut on a bandsaw that needs little cleanup. Note that this is done by carefully marking a line all the way around the box with a marking gauge, and carefully and slowly cutting to the line. Just relying on the box being pushed against the side of the fence will likely result in a very skewed cut, even if you've squared the fence to the blade.

[Lee Schierer]

Lee - When using this approach on a fingerjointed box as pictured, what tool do you use to make the stopped grooves on two sides of the box, or do you just let the grooves show at the finger joints on two sides?

- Rob
You can either cut blind slots with your router or cut through slot with your TS (or router) and fill the holes with pieces of similar grained wood when you glue the joints. This box was made the same way, but I used a different joint for the corners. The locking rabbet joint hides the grooves if they aren't cut more than 2/3 the thickness of the wood.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/maplebox.jpg