Frameless cabinet door questions...

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have started a big cabinet job and need some help. The original design was flat panel doors and now it's changed to frameless cabinets and slab doors. Not having a vaccuum press or anyway to make those doors, I will have to order them.

Anyone know of a supplier who makes this type door?

[Jay Jolliffe]

Try Walz Craft custom doors, mill work...........www.walzcraft.com

[Steve Jenkins]

Kelly, depending on how the price is you can make them yourself. Use veneered mdf core and edgeband with veneer after cutting to size. If you don't want to use stock ply from Central Hardwoods you can get whatever specie you want laid-up at the Wood Gallery in Dallas. You can also purchase the edgebanding from them. I would order the banding 7/8 wide and glue it on with regular wood glue. I use a piece of 3/4 particleboard with melamine on it as a caul. I rip the pb to 1-1/8 wide and lay the panels on 1/4" strips on the clamps so the veneer can be proud on both faces then put the 1-1/8 pb on edge. That way you get good clamping pressure on the entire edge.
If you want give me a call and we can talk about it. I may even be able to help with the cutting to size if you want.

[Brian Clevenger]

Kelly,

It seems like there might be two options that you could do in shop. The least expensive would be plywood doors with edge-banding. The other would be glue-ups of solid stock. I'll give you a call later and see what we can work out.

[Paul Girouard]

Kind of a small photo , but you could , as has been said make them out of plywood and edge band them a variety of ways, or lay up the panels in solid lumber.

Are we missing something here?? Seems like a no brainier. :confused:

[David DeCristoforo]

"...Seems like a no brainier..."

May be... maybe not. Making these out of solid wood, one risks warping. Cutting them out of good quality plywood is an option but, in either case, does the maker have the wherewithal to cut them perfectly square? With "euro" style cabs and their typically small reveals, any slight variation from square will be very noticeable. If they are cut from plywood, can they be cut with no chipping? Small flaws in doors like this can really stand out. Then there is the question of how the edge banding will be accomplished. Gluing on strips of solid wood might not produce the "look" the customer is expecting. Edge taping is an option but without a bander you are limited to iron on tape which (IMMHO) is not durable enough for door and drawer front edges. Also, with this style of door, grain matching is critical. They are very unforgiving in that respect. So there is little room for error because if one gets messed up, it will be very difficult to almost impossible to match with a replacement piece.

I'm not saying that these doors cannot be shop made... just that there is sometimes more than what meets the eye.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

David, you are exactly right! This is far from a no brainer. A very good friend who is paying me for a new kitchen. This is not for someone who just dives in without experience. Even though you won't see much of it on the website, we've built many a cabinet job in the past. In the last few years, we've specialized more in outdoors projects. So far we've built a deck & pergola as well as opened up a few walls with new headers to create a free flowing traffic pattern and replaced the upper bedroom's subfloor in the house where the cabinets will go.

I have been down this road before trying to edge band plywood and the end result was not satisfactory to me. The client was ok with it but I hated it. I was leary of any other method having not done any of them myself.

Thanks Steve, after talking to you I emailed her with what we could do and the extra charges that would be involved and she emailed back asking me to build the frame and flat panel doors, but to mount them like the frameless doors with a full overlay. That I can do without much worry and a minimal price increase.

Brian, thanks but I've tried both of those without much luck, I much prefer flat or raised panel doors. I hated the idea of odering them from a supplier and taking delivery sight unseen...just not my style.

[Paul Girouard]

Well IF you buy them from a door company you can darned near plan on NOT getting the grain match your after.

And IF you can't cut part right , IE: square and the right size , you shouldn't be contracting a job like this.

There plenty of ways to edge band, pick one , make a prototype, get client approval before moving on.

Sure there are parts of the process that take great care , thats part of being a cabinetmaker, maybe sheet-rock would be easier. No grain matching , bring lots of mud , a no brainier. :rolleyes:

Flat gain matched plywood doors and drawer front , IMO , are about a easy as it gets. Ugly IMO , but I'm not the client.


Good luck.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Well IF you buy them from a door company I can darned near plan on NOT getting the grain match your after.

And IF you can't cut part right , IE: square and the right size , you shouldn't be contracting a job like this.

There plenty of ways to edge band, pick one , make a prototype get client approval before moving on.

Sure there are parts of the process that take great care , thats part of being a cabinetmaker, maybe sheet-rock would be easier. No grain matching , bring lots of mud , a no brainier. :rolleyes:

Flat gain matched plywood doors and drawer front , IMO , are about a easy as it gets. Ugly IMO , but I'm not the client.


Good luck.

:confused:

[Paul Girouard]

What don't you understand?

[David DeCristoforo]

"What don't you understand?"

Paul, I'm not a moderator but if I was I would suggest that the thing Kelly does not understand is what I am assuming you intended to come across as sarcasm in your replies. At least I hope you intended it as sarcasm because if not, then you are not really offering very constructive advice.

BTW/FWIW, most door shops offer grain matched flat panel doors and drawer fronts.

[frank shic]

buying your doors is a perfectly legitimate way of MAKING MONEY instead of investing in expensive equipment that you won't need again in the future and wasting all that time trying to figure out how to make the process work. there's a huge difference between a hobbyist and a businessman. if anyone is in doubt, just look through the old messages and see how many times someone opened up shop only to close within a matter of months! i'll bet most of those failures were caused by a poor business plan as well as the delusion that you should do everything yourself. btw, conestoga makes good flat panel doors as well and if you buy them through the true32.com website, you can get a volume discount that you wouldn't ordinarily get by ordering them yourself. you want to order the doors "sequence matched" i believe so that the doors and drawers match from cabinet to cabinet. if you want to see what happens when you try to make those flat panel doors yourself, take a look at danny proulx's book on building kitchen cabinets - i love this book for the information but his garage grade plywood doors are downright hideous! good luck, kelly!

[Jim Kountz]

Ok just trying to understand here but where is the huge difficulty in cutting a piece of plywood square?? Im assuming (heres where I usually get in trouble) that since the OP is taking on a job like this that they have some experience and a properly equipped shop. Having said that a decently outfitted shop should be able to cut out simple square and rectangle parts all day long with a good level of accuracy? As to the edge banding now there is some ways to get in trouble with that for sure. There are many ways to go about it some better than others. I go along with the theory of making a prototype utilizing your best methods and skillset, presenting it to the customer for approval or changes and then go to it. Make sense?

[David DeCristoforo]

"...trying to understand here but where is the huge difficulty in cutting a piece of plywood square..."

The issue is not cutting square. It's cutting perfectly square and perfectly sized and perfectly clean. These doors have no edge detail to conceal any slight variations. Plus, they will typically have a one eighth inch "reveal" so anywhere, for example, four corners "come together" they have to be perfect or it will look like dog doo. As long as you have the wherewithal to cut these perfectly, there is no problem. Also, any slight chipping will be very noticeable. And edge banding these many panels on all four sides is not a "cake walk" for an ill equipped shop. No one is saying that this should be difficult for the "average" professional cabinet maker. Just that it's very critical with this style of door that everything be exact.

[Jim Kountz]

"...trying to understand here but where is the huge difficulty in cutting a piece of plywood square..."

The issue is not cutting square. It's cutting perfectly square and perfectly sized and perfectly clean. These doors have no edge detail to conceal any slight variations. Plus, they will typically have a one eighth inch "reveal" so anywhere, for example, four corners "come together" they have to be perfect or it will look like dog doo. As long as you have the wherewithal to cut these perfectly, there is no problem. Also, any slight chipping will be very noticeable. And edge banding these many panels on all four sides is not a "cake walk" for an ill equipped shop. No one is saying that this should be difficult for the "average" professional cabinet maker. Just that it's very critical with this style of door that everything be exact.

I understand what you're saying David and I agree its not a cakewalk but doable in a properly equipped shop with the proper experience. You come here with years of experience offering lots of great advice and dont get me wrong Im not trying to argue with you at all, just sharing thoughts thats all.


And to me there is only square. Close or almost is not square its either right or its wrong. But thats just how I view it.

[David DeCristoforo]

I am with you Jim. And I would make these doors without even a second thought. But I would not hesitate to suggest that someone buy them if they are not confident in their ability to produce them. I know lots of guys who make a living making cabinets and they have never made even one door or some even drawers. I know one guy who buys everything, even his cabinet parts all pre cut. All he does is put the stuff together! The only real equipment in his shop is a case clamp and a hinge boring machine.

[frank shic]

there's also the issue of flatness which is why veneer over an mdf core would be a superior option to just plywood. david, i do love my hinge boring machines... all four of them lol

[Paul Girouard]

Yes, there was some sarcasm in my second post. But like Jim said it's not that hard to cut these fronts. It's been my experience that door shops , unless a detailed drawing and a long phone conversation SELDOM would deliver a quality grain and color match on fronts such as shown.

Sure everyone has a different "perfect" , and opinion , or so it seems.

My first post , at least to me spelled out most of the highlights to the issues at hand.

If I was abrasive , I'm sorry. My second post , although it had sarcasm in it , it was "good" sarcasm as there was "truth" in the post. And good sarcasm MUST have some truth in it , or it would NOT be sarcasm , but pure meanness.


Please except my apology IF my post was offensive.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Please except my apology..."

Expressing your thoughts in words can be very difficult. Sometimes it's very hard to communicate emotion which is why we have those silly "emoticons". I'm sure you had no intention of being offensive or mean. I just think Kelly failed to pick up on your sarcasm. Believe me, I am not trying to criticize you. I had to learn the hard way how easy it is to sound abrasive when you don't really mean to or for comments to be taken the wrong way. Just ask anyone....

[Brian Clevenger]

I've known Kelly long enough to have confidence that he can and will get it done. :D

Written expression is an art, and forums like this open up that artistic venue to rank amateurs. ;)

As far as hurt feelings, everyone has to learn to deal with that on their own. :(

[Bruce Wrenn]

Cut your panels from MDF core veneer stock. Hire a shop to edge band them for you. You choose the face grain pattern so it looks good, and they do the "grunt" work.

[Steve Griffin]

I have started a big cabinet job and need some help. The original design was flat panel doors and now it's changed to frameless cabinets and slab doors. Not having a vaccuum press or anyway to make those doors, I will have to order them.

Anyone know of a supplier who makes this type door?

Hi Kelly,
There does seem to be a growing interest in the business for more contempory, flat panel doors.

When I'm asked about these in my shop, I have plenty to say:

1)The best and most correct way to do these is a professional veneer specialist who can lay up veneer panels anyway you want. Each door and drawer will have a MDF core which is banded with hardwood and then the veneer is applied over the top of everything. An entire kitchen should come from one log and be slip or book matched with care. Yep, it's expensive--the house I'm presently doing will have $30,000 just in veneer work. The panels come perfectly square with grain matched all the way across the room. The final gaps are only 1/16".

2)Good old fashioned solid wood slab panels are my favorite. BUT, I insist that doors be kept to 12- 14" max and only quarter sawn wood be used. I've done kitchens in Quarter Sawn fir and white oak which are very nice and age well.

3)Utility grade cabinets can be done with everyday 3/4" MDF core veneered sheet goods and no edgebanding. I absolutely refuse to use edgebanding, since I would rather look at MDF or Plywood than peeling off banding. This is a cost effective way to do laundry,closet and garage cabinets, but probably is too crude for a kitchen.

4)High quality 1" Apple Ply or similar high grade plywoods can also be used as well. Apple-Ply has 13 laminations of Alder and no voids and the 1" thickness is slightly more stable. You still want to keep door sizes small, but the again the idea is that seeing plywood edges always superior to edge banding.

5)With flat panel doors, the hardware chosen becomes much more important for the "look". And often more expensive.

Good luck! -Steve

[Rob Blaustein]

Mark Singer has built things using that design--edgebanded ply as doors/drawer faces. Check out his 'Office Workstation (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=15940)' thread (see p3,4). I think there others as well--you could PM him. The Balboa house cabinet project used solid wood I think, rather than ply, but similar look.