Wiring new shop question

[Jason Thaxton]

This is my first post love the site.
I have a 200 amp service at my house, my shop is about 150 feet away. My service panel is in my finished basement. My meter is on the outside of the house. I would like to have a 100 amp service at the shop and am wondering if I can just connect after the meter or do I have to run a 100amp breaker from my breaker box. the later is the least desirable because It is located in a finished basement on the far wall from my shop. I would like to be able to get service after the meter on the outside of my home. Just wondering if this is possible. Also would you go with a 100 or 200 amp service or is a 200 even possible?

[Chris Padilla]

Jason,

I am NOT qualified to answer this but let me tell you what I have:

I have the main breaker box/meter on the outside wall of my garage (i.e. any Tom, Dick, or Harry could walk up to my house and flip all the breakers off if they so desired). I have 150 A service there (2/0 aluminum wire).

Inside this box exists several breakers but of note to you is a 100 A breaker whose wires meader off inside my garage to another wall where the panel for the house lives. So I have 150 A to my garage and 100 A feeding the house.

Since most of my neighbors have 100 A service, I suspect my outside box was upgraded many years ago (before I bought the house) to service the pool equipment (30 A breaker for that) and A/C (30 A breaker for this).

So, basically, I'm adding in a few more 30 A breakers for some 240 V action along with some 20 A for power tools and 15 A for lights.

Again, I'm NOT qualified to answer this question...just describing what I have at my home.

Edit: BTW, Welcome to SMC...I see you aren't afraid to wade right in!

[Jim Becker]

Since your service is 200 amps already, I believe you "must" come off the main panel with a 100amp breaker for the shop sub-panel. Now, if you upgraded your service entrance to 300 amps, your electrician could install a separate disconnect box with a main breaker in it directly off the meter to supply the shop building separate from the main panel. That's how my setup is since the service enterance upgrade to 400 amps in 2002. I have 200 amps for the house and 200 amps for the outbuilding (more than just a shop eventually) and it's off one meter. (This work was done by a licensed electrician and inspected by the township...the service to the shop building is via underground conduit...)

[Rob Russell]

Jason,

Welcome aboard!

Where is your main service disconnect? IOW, do you have a disconnect between your meter and the panel in your basement, or is the 200 amp breaker in your panel the only disconnect you are aware of if you need to kill power to your house? What is the location of the meter relative to your main breaker panel?

It sounds like you really don't want to mess with the panel in the basement. There is a possibility that you could run a feed to your workshop from the meter base if it allows it. If it doesn't, you might be able to swap the meter/base to provide the double lugs you'd need.

This is definitely something to hire an electrician for. There are all sorts of rule about service feeders, grounding systems, separate buildings and all that good junk. You can probably save yourself some money by doing the grunt work like digging trenches, maybe even helping with conduit/pulling conductors, etc. You don't want to find you're in trouble when you've got the power off to your house.

Rob

[Fred LeBail]

Jason, you have landed in the right spot. Everyone is friendly and we also have an opinion on almost anything.
I ran my shop off a breaker from the 100 amp panel in my basement and had no problem .When I install my Dry kiln I thought I had better seperate the two. I now have two meters going. If I don't have the kiln running the shop Elect bill is @ $ 40/ mth. Unless you are running a lot of 220 stuff your house panel should work.
BUT, I would have a Qualified Elect. check it out. Shouldn't be to pricey for the peace of mind.
Again welcome to the club,
Fred

[Todd Burch]

Welcome Jason.

You can probably call an electric utility provider (we have several to chose from in & around Houston) and have what's called a "general purpose utility service" added. It would be a whole new meter and separate bill from your house bill. And, you could have it run straight to your shop. Got any pictures of that shop?!!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jason, Welcome!

I've got a new shop being built as I write this. It should be finished next week. I'll be installing the electrical service entry this week while I am waiting for the contractor to get back to the job, next week.

While I have 200 amp service in my house, the box is already nearly full. I elected to run a separate meter and service entry to my shop. After doing a poll here and combined with my experience working in hospitals, I purchased and am installing a 200 amp Square D QO main panel. I'm lucky! I checked with our local power company and because it' s a relatively short run, they'll run my overhead cable without any charges. The only "gotcha" is that they will bill separately and there will be a $8.00 minimun monthly minimum charge whether or not I use any power.

Again..........Welcome! :)

[Pat Salter]

I don't know if this will answer your question.....but. When I added my shop the only power to the property was inside the house with a 100 amp main. When I got ready, I put a new 200 amp panel on the side of the house. I installed a 100 amp breaker and fed that to the existing house panel. I then put a 70 amp breaker and fed that to the shop. I'm going to add a 30 amp breaker for the spa and I will then be maxed out.
By the way. I did this with a permit and had to get SDGE (San diego gas and electric) to run a new line to the house. They also gave me a new meter. Said the old wireing to the house and the old meter would not have worked. It may be a good idea to call you local power company and see if they can't help. They didn't charge me anything for the new hookup. Also, the county inspectors were VERY helpful. I just told them I was dumb and they believed me! They then told me how to do it (what size wire etc.).

[Paul B. Cresti]

Jason,

I too am not an electrician but here is my three cents from my own experience. When I amoved into my new old house a little over a year ago I converted my garage over to my shop. It is way over on the other side of my house and service entry (in basement 200amp other side of the house). It is about a 95 foot run from main panle to shop. I installed a 125amp snap in breaker (and larger requires a bolt on breaker) and ran Tray cable which consisted of (3) 2/0 wire and 1 #6 ground. this cable is rated for up to 200 amp so allowed for growth. The wire is copper. My suggestion is if you go the route of a sub panel and feeder from your main do not mess with aluminum. It does expand and contract over time. It is much cheaper than copper and many many contractors continually use it but any really good electrician will tell you to use copper. I always believe to err on the side of safety. Most utility companies do use aluminum for service entry cable but they have the equipment to torque down the screws/connectors. Good luck on your decision

[Jason Thaxton]

thanks everyone for the advise. Sounds like I will need to hire a electrician to help me out on this I wired my house when I built it but got help with the main line sounds like I will do the same thing for the shop. I am just in the process of pouring the footings and pad for the shop you can check out the shop at the following link http://www.barnsbarnsbarns.com/noff/pilchuck.html

I am building the larger plan with no room dividers I will span with a beam. My father is a facilities manager for a large defense company. He gets me 20"x 8' pieces of osb for free all I want that is what I will be sheathing the shop with. My neighbor is a contractor and has hundreds of windows that were ordered for custom homes that didn't fit so I have all the windows for free the only thing I will have to buy is the concrete and diminsional lumber. I do construction on the side so I am doing the concrete framing and most of the wiring I am going to try and do a old fashion lime stucco for the exterior all in all it will be a pretty nice shop and most of all wont cost me much. Plus I will finally be able to park in my garage. that will make my wife very happy. I will post pics as soon as I start making a little more progress.

[Chris Padilla]

:eek:

Where do you live, Jason??

:D

That is a nice cheap shop you have going up there...good for you!

[Jason Thaxton]

Lindon, UT

[Rob Russell]

Sounds like I will need to hire a electrician to help me out on this I wired my house when I built it but got help with the main line sounds like I will do the same thing for the shop.


If you get answers to the questions about the disconnect for your main panel, I'll try to give you some ideas on options to discuss with the electrician.



He gets me 20"x 8' pieces of osb for free all I want that is what I will be sheathing the shop with.


If you're planning to sheath the outside of the barn with strips of OSB, I'd verify with the barn company that they will certify the structure. The 4'x8' sheets of sheathing on the outside of a building are what hold it together and keep it from racking. I'd seriously question whether narrow strips like that would give adequate racking resistance. Maybe, if you use construction adhesive along with nails - but I'd check for sure. You wouldn't be a happy camper to get a loft full of lumber and have the barn start to slide one way because the strips of OSB couldn't prevent the racking.

Rob

[Jason Thaxton]

my main 200 amp breaker is on the ourside of my house right after the meter it has extra room for another breaker. Can I just add a 100 amp and go to my shop from there.

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The construction adhesive is a good idea I will probably do that. The osb is 3/4 inch tong and groove. This is a lot stronger than the required 5/16. I already had a war with the inspector over this he said it would be ok as long as it is properly nailedand I will have to put bracinng in every four feet up the wall. This is a very sore spot for me. Having worked in the construction industry for some time it is the lumber manufacturers who make up all the bs code issue and make it impossible for us to use non standard lumber or techniques. Go tell a inspector you are going to harvest your own beam for header material and he will crap down both legs. Did they build with 4x8 sheet material 50 years ago or micro lam or lvl for headers? I would bet that your house has a more than a few half or less sheets of sheathing if its a newer home. Those homes built in the past will be standing long after my new home is falling apart. I've worked on remodels were they used lath as exterior sheeting. It is not uncommon for old homes in my area to be 100% adobe (fancy name for mud). I originally wanted to build a straw bale shop but code wouldn't allow it. I am very interested in non standard construction methods. All this code is just another example of how we let big business make the rules and set the price they want. The inspector didn't want me to do the lime stucco because it was old technology and he didn't know anything about it. I had to point out that most old lighthouses in the U.S and 500 year old buildings in Europe use this technique. There are cheaper and better methods for construction if we could get big lumber out of the code writing business.

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[Chris Padilla]

Interesting viewpoints, Jason. Thanks for bearing some light on them. I guess it is too much to assume that "codes" are for our own good and that they are just the "right thing to do". However, that said, I'm sure there are plenty of codes/standards that are good but as with anything, some find ways to take advantage in the name of the almighty dollar.

[Rob Russell]

my main 200 amp breaker is on the ourside of my house right after the meter it has extra room for another breaker. Can I just add a 100 amp and go to my shop from there.


Sounds like it. It's quite common in my area for the meter to be on the outside with the main service panel in the inside, back to back. That way the cable runs from the meter base right into the main breaker. There is no disconnect at the meter. The downside is that running extra panels like you want to means feeding it from the panel.

Some things to check are whether the feed to your main panel is a 3 or 4-wire. Putting it differently, where is your Grounding Electrode System tied in - at the meter/service disconnect or your panel? I'd believe at your disconnect, but check.




The construction adhesive is a good idea I will probably do that. The osb is 3/4 inch tong and groove. This is a lot stronger than the required 5/16. I already had a war with the inspector over this he said it would be ok as long as it is properly nailedand I will have to put bracinng in every four feet up the wall. This is a very sore spot for me. Having worked in the construction industry for some time it is the lumber manufacturers who make up all the bs code issue and make it impossible for us to use non standard lumber or techniques. Go tell a inspector you are going to harvest your own beam for header material and he will crap down both legs. Did they build with 4x8 sheet material 50 years ago or micro lam or lvl for headers? I would bet that your house has a more than a few half or less sheets of sheathing if its a newer home. Those homes built in the past will be standing long after my new home is falling apart. I've worked on remodels were they used lath as exterior sheeting. It is not uncommon for old homes in my area to be 100% adobe (fancy name for mud). I originally wanted to build a straw bale shop but code wouldn't allow it. I am very interested in non standard construction methods. All this code is just another example of how we let big business make the rules and set the price they want. The inspector didn't want me to do the lime stucco because it was old technology and he didn't know anything about it. I had to point out that most old lighthouses in the U.S and 500 year old buildings in Europe use this technique. There are cheaper and better methods for construction if we could get big lumber out of the code writing business.


My comment about the sheathing was based on the engineering and design principles I went through for an addition on our house. The points about sheathing's function, from an engineering perspective, were explained to me by my brother who is a civil engineer. My comments had nothing to do with building code. Frankly, I wouldn't sheath a structure with OSB if you gave me a trailer load of 4'x8' sheets for free. I'm not convinced that the glue/resin will hold up long term and plywood at least has full layers of wood for some structural integrity.

I agree that alternative construction methods (which are, in some cases very traditional) can throw the inspecting folks for a loop. I think they are in a no-win situation, stuck between trying to protect homeowners against shoddy building vs. over-regulation.

[Jason Thaxton]

thanks for the info at least I can talk intelligently to the electrician.

Sorry to rant about the code issues I feel the same about osb as you but its cheap and I am on a very tight budget I need to get out of the garage ASAP. My wife wants to park in the garage and have me stop tracking sawdust in the house. She is the one who wants the shop not me;) .

[jim barter]

Jason / I'm an electrician and an electrical inspector for the province of New Brunswick ,Canada. In Canada all provinces except for Quebec use the Canadian Electrical Code.Section 8 of the CEC outlines the requirements for sizing a service entrance for a building.If you have a standard home say 1500 sq feet on each floor and a dryer,range,electric hot water tank and electric baseboard heat not exceeding 30,000 watts you could easily add say 50 amps for your shop and not be overloaded. Service entrance conductors are calculated on demand.Same as in the NEC for the states.You do not just add up the amperage of the breakers.There is a diversity factor involved here,Residental loads are considered for demand calculations as non continous loads.If your home has oil or gas heat then the load for your home would run approx 60 to 70 amps.Take for example a 12,000 watt range is figured in at 6000 watts on demand,your electric dryer is rated as 6000 watts but calculated at only 25% of this.So you see with out knowing all the loads of your home or the large units it is hard to calculate but any electrical contractor could do this for you.The normal receptacles and lights, fridge, washer etc are all figured in the calculations as basic watts per sq foot. You do not have to figure each one only the heavy loads.I would say without much hesitation that a two hundred amp 120/240 service will be more than enough with space left over if you do not have electric heat or a heavy air conditioning load.
JIM

[Rob Russell]

Jim,

Nice to see a professional sparky chiming in! :)

Rob

[jim barter]

Thanks Rob / just trying to give my 2 cents worth.See not all inspectors are bad or out to prove a point,like I tell the public that I deal with that is that I work for the tax payer to ensure they get a safe electrical installation.This is one system in your home or any building for that matter than can burn you out or worse electrocute someone.
Jim

[Rob Russell]

See not all inspectors are bad or out to prove a point ...

My experiences with my town AHJ have been positive, and that's even with a red tag on my first electrical rough-in inspetion (didn't know about the need for firestop caulking - all the wiring was A-OK).

Inspectors get a bum rap. People don't want to hear that there's a problem and you're generally the one who is just delivering the message when the message is clearly written in some code, whether it be an electrical or building code. I think the problems generally come when an inspector interprets the code and tries to apply their subjective view of what should be done vs. what must be done.

[jim barter]

I could not agree more.A inspector should never try to enforce their subjective view.I believe that we can suggest perhaps another alternative and leave it up to them. I have found that as an inspector I get to see everyones work good and bad.I gladly pass on the good short cuts or ideas as an aid to the electrician.I was installing electrical approx 20 years before becoming an inspector and I have been doing this for 10 years this year .I have found alot and I mean a lot of good ideas from inspecting contractors work.I have also seen alot of poor work that was down right unsafe.
JIm

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Jason,
When I built my shop I changed the service drop from the side of the house to the back of the shop. To avoid having to purchase and install a disconnect, the county building inspector suggested I tell the utility company I wanted a dual parallel lug meter base. Instead of having 2 lugs going to the distribution panel, it has 4--2 on each side. The electrician then put a 100 amp entrance through the shop wall and buried a 200 amp entrance to the house.

This was not very expensive as I remember. The utility company didn't like the idea. I had to mention the building inspector's name and tell them he ordered it (he suggested I do this if the utility balked at the idea). Turns out that meter base is much more expensive than a standard base.

It has worked fine for about 12 years. I believe I could have two 200 amp entrances if I had wanted to at the install time. I wish I would have done that now, but I still have room left in the 100 amp shop panel.

[Jim Becker]

Ron, around here, the power company only provides the meter and the wire to the service head from the street. The box, service head and conduit, cable from the service head, etc., are all provided by the electrician/homeowner. Now get this...I have had a 400amp meter box and the power company has left the original 200 amp meter in place (unsealed) for almost a year and a half. They also refused to replace the cable from the pole across the street claiming it was adequate--which according to the electrician who did our upgrades is not likely. It's a pretty small set of wires! The power company doesn't like to spend any money they don't have to. (To the credit of one of their men who tightened up the cable after the pole was replaced not long ago, he somewhat agreed that a little bigger wire would be more desirable....)

[Ron Jones near Indy]

The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. Jim, thanks for reminding me how good we Hoosiers have it! ;)


Ain't God Good to Indiana?

"Ain't God good to Indiana?
Folks, a feller never knows
Just how close he is to Eden
Till, sometime, he ups an' goes
Seekin' fairer, greener pastures
Than he has right here at home,
Where there's sunshine in the clover
An' honey in th' comb;
Where the ripples on th' river
Kinda chuckles as they flow--
Ain't God good to Indiana?
Ain't He, fellers? Ain't He, though?

"Ain't God good to Indiana?
Seems to me He has a way
Gittin' me all outta humor
Just to see how long I'll stay
When I git th' gypsy feelin'
That I'd like to find a spot
Where th' clouds ain't quite so restless,
Or th' sun don't shine so hot.
But, I don't git far, I'll tell you,
Till I'm whisperin' soft an' low:
Ain't God good to Indiana?
Ain't He, fellers? Ain't He, though?

"Ain't God good to Indiana?
Other spots may look as fair,
But they lack th' soothin' somethin'
In th' Hoosier sky and air.
They don't have that snug-up feelin'
Like a mother gives a child;
They don't soothe you, soul an' body,
With their breezes soft an' mild.
They don't know th' joys of Heaven
Have their birthplace here below;
Ain't God good to Indiana?
Ain't He, fellers? Ain't He, though?"

William Herschell
Legendary Indiana Journalist

[Mark Singer]

Jim,
You are right except I don't think there is a 300 amp panel....it jumps from 200 to 400!

[Chuck Radgowski]

Jason this site had all the answers on how to wire a detached garage
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17794

[John Harris]

Jason, I just did exactly what you described in your post. To me the difference in all the quotes and advice I got from electricians came down to two things. Creativity and Experience. There were the basic losers that only saw one answer to a problem and gave worthless run of the mill answers. I am a HUGE believer in more than one way to skin a cat. I had a couple of good electricians that could really think on their feet and give good answers involving how to solve the problem not a million ways of why it can't be done. In the final analysis I had three very good and effective choices to pick from. The choices were all at different price and convenience levels, but none compromised codes or my families' safety. If you want call me and I'll discuss the different options with you. PM or email for the number.