NEC Help/Books/Etc. [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Chris Padilla

06-01-2004, 12:12 PM

Steven Wilson

06-01-2004, 12:23 PM

Chris,

You can take a look at "Code Check Eletrical" which is a very short, terse, and geared towards residental wiring (forget motor circuits). There is also the "2002 NEC Residential Pocket Guide ($26)" and a companion one for industrial but the cost together is $52, so up there with the NEC. The McGraw-Hill's National Electrical Code Handbook is very good at explaining the various parts of the NEC ($80). The problem with all the books is that they reference tables in the NEC that are only found in the NEC, so you need the NEC to go with them and that costs $55 for the softbound copy. Of course the NEC should be available as a reference at your local library and the cost is free !

Chris Padilla

06-01-2004, 12:27 PM

Library!! You know, I often overlook this valuable source of information! I don't even think I've been to my local library and I've driven by it at least 250 times in the last 5 years! Very sad....

Thanks!! :D

A question I have right now is about #10 stranded wire. Are there special outlets that can more easily handle this gauge of wire or are there "crimp on" terminals for handling this wire? The borg didn't have #10 solid or I might've considered solid over stranded.

Steven Wilson

06-01-2004, 1:00 PM

A question I have right now is about #10 stranded wire. Are there special outlets that can more easily handle this gauge of wire or are there "crimp on" terminals for handling this wire? The borg didn't have #10 solid or I might've considered solid over stranded.

I haven't had any problem handling #10 stranded, I just make sure the openings are extended fully and that the strands all go into the fixture. I have seen crip on wire terminations used in european machinery (your MM20 will have a couple as does the CU300) but I haven't come across it yet in American stuff. I'm not sure if using a crimp on terminator would be code. IIRC tining the ends of stranded power wire is a no no. Since it's been a long time since I've considered tining the ends first I'm not sure if it would be correct or not - anyone care to clear that up?

John Miliunas

06-01-2004, 1:00 PM

Chris, on the #10 stranded; I've used the 220VAC, twist-loc outlets from our local "borg" (Menards) with very good results. I think that for #10, as long as you're using a plug or outlet rated for 30A, the wire should go in there just fine. :cool:

Tyler Howell

06-01-2004, 1:37 PM

Those would be outlets designed for that type of current capacity?? You don't gain any more safety with over kill in the wiring department. As a matter of fact, people create problems by trying to jam too many or too large of a wire into a spce it is not designed for.

Knew a guy that got "a good deal" and wired his whole house with #10 solid. It wouldn't fit in 110 duplex recepticles. He jerked it all out and put in 12 gage. When I asked him why he didn't just pig tail to all his outlets in the box. :rolleyes: He got a very sick look on his face and won't speak to me anymore. Not a very nice or bright guy to begin with.:D

Chris Padilla

06-01-2004, 1:55 PM

For the sake of simplicity (I think!? :eek: ), I broke down and picked up 500' spools of stranded #10 (white, red, and black [no green]) from the borg and plan to rewire the garage.

I also have some 3/4" flex conduit (Greenfield?? Trying to get a handle on the names) that I plan to use since I ain't no good at bending EMT and it seems to me to be easier to put in although a slight PITA to cut.

Steve, yeah, those crimp-on "pins" on the MM20 were pretty cool...that is what got me wondering if something like that was available for wiring outlets and such.

John, I've used the same twist-locks and they do work just fine with #10 but the #10 is a little tough on 15 and 20 A outlets.

Tyler, good idea about the pigtails. I plan to put in large boxes for all my outlets so I should have plenty of room and I don't plan to stuff them very full anyway. I'm just way overengineering this stuff but I don't want to go so far as to defeat my initial purpose. I didn't want to purchase spools of #10, #12, #14...too much wire...too much money. #10 should be the most my garage will ever need so I hope I can make this work.

Jim Becker

06-01-2004, 2:00 PM

It certainly doesn't substitute for the NEC, but I find that Black and Decker's Guide to Home Wiring is a very useful book to have around. It doesn't deal with machinery, but there is enough information about electrical work and figuring circuits that you should also find it useful from time to time. You can get it at any book store or even at the 'borg in the book rack hidden "somewhere in the store".

Tyler Howell

06-01-2004, 2:10 PM

Chris,
Crimp on connections aKa spade luggs are common in the industry but can be a source of resistance (hot spots) if not applied correctly a good crimping tool is $$$ but worth the investment. ;) Stop bye I'll loan you mine.
Come on Dude. Bend some pipe. It is very cheep so you can practice!:D

Chris Padilla

06-01-2004, 5:07 PM

Rob Russell

06-01-2004, 5:30 PM

This is probably more of a question for our resident (non-professional) electrician, Mr. Rob Russell.

Short of purchasing the whole NEC book, are there good books out there for the DIYer?

I certainly have a good grasp of electronics (being an EE) but I'm no electrician by any stretch of the imagination.

I have plans to gut my garage and rewire the whole thing and I'd like to do it by the book as much as possible.

Short of heading to the local h/w store or the borg, I guess I should find the place where the electrcians head for their supplies.

Hey - I'm just an amateur!

I picked up a small paperback a long time ago that showed details on wiring things like 3 and 4-way switches. FYI, there are multiple ways to wire those circuits.

I also have, and read, the NEC to find answers on what the rules are, but that's different than how to wire something.

Motor control circuitry has been from the internet and ... ummm ... I have an uncle who's an EE. :rolleyes: Sort helps when you've got a design question. He designed the first photocell switches that turn streetlights on and off.

On your #10 stranded, you need to use green for the EGC. You can't reidentify that with green tape. I'd use a back-wire receptacle with the #10 stranded. Make sure it's not a back-stab, but the back-wire type where the side-mount screws tighten down a clamp on the wire. Those will work just fine.

Another hint on working with stranded wire is to twist it counterclockwise before forming your loop (when going around screws). It won't unravel as much.

Rob

Chris Padilla

06-01-2004, 5:42 PM

I can't use the flex conduit as my EGC? Darn, I thought that I could...I don't wanna buy another bundle of green! waaaaaa! :(

The twist-lock 240 V receptacle have that nice clamp that holds the #10 very nicely. I guess I need to find those in 120 V 15/20A receptacle form. I'll pay the extra money, no problem.

Thanks for the twist advice...makes perfect sense.

Man, I'm sooooo glad I have 150 A into the main panel...SO NICE!! :) I checked a few neighbors and they all have 100 A. Some time before we owned the house, they must've upgraded the panel. My guess was it happend in 1979 when the pool went in! ;)

One other thing I notice on the main panel: It mostly has knock-outs for 1/2" but I see a concentric ring around the 1/2" knock-out that looks like it could hold 3/4". Well, it does but unless I'm doing something wrong, it was a major b**** to get the thinner concentric out of my way and when I did, I had to take a dremel to the box to grind out two chunks of metal still left. I stuffed some heavy paper around the main breakers so I could comfortable work in the box but I surely am missing something here about the knock-outs. Any thoughts?

Rob Russell

06-01-2004, 6:12 PM

I can't use the flex conduit as my EGC? Darn, I thought that I could...I don't wanna buy another bundle of green! waaaaaa! :(

?
I'd run a true EGC even if the flex were acceptable as the EGC. I like the security of a wire on terminal EGC, rather counting on the conduit.

One other thing I notice on the main panel: It mostly has knock-outs for 1/2" but I see a concentric ring around the 1/2" knock-out that looks like it could hold 3/4". Well, it does but unless I'm doing something wrong, it was a major b**** to get the thinner concentric out of my way and when I did, I had to take a dremel to the box to grind out two chunks of metal still left. I stuffed some heavy paper around the main breakers so I could comfortable work in the box but I surely am missing something here about the knock-outs. Any thoughts?

Take a pair of side-cutting pliers to nip off the metal stubs. That's one nice thing about conduit - the fittings cover those stubs so you don't have to worry about sharp edges slicing the conductor insulation.

Personally, I'd run rigid conduit or PVC. Plastic can't rust over time and is easy to work with. If you don't want to bend stuff, the offset nipples make it really easy to get the PVC to sit flat against the wall and give a really neat installation. Metal pipe may be more work, but it's a nice feeling when you're through with it.

YMMV.

Chris Padilla

06-01-2004, 6:36 PM

Here is what I don't get:

The white (neutral) and green (EGC) connect to the same darn place in the main breaker box. Now, in the house panel, they are separated...I actually found the code specifically stating this.

Edit: Rob, I'm an EE so if you want to feed me a few hints and let me stew on it a bit, that would be fine...I'll learn it better! :)

If I am running circuits from the main breaker box, why do I need to run a white and a green?? They are both grounded...at the same potential...carry the same current, etc.

Interestingly, I always thought one of the attractions of running conduit was to avoid having to run the bare wire (Romex) or green wire. Conduit, of course, is also nice as one can pull wires easily in the future for upgrades.

Rob, I plan to gut my garage to the studs so I can rewire, reinsulate, redrywall and do some minor sturctural work, etc. Frankly, I don't see how one can easily get the rigid stuff into the wall. I guess one uses a lot of couplers? The flex is cake to meader through/along an open-stud wall.

Hey, thanks for all your help...I just want to be prepared. Heck, I may get permits and everything!! Nah.... ;)

Jason Roehl

06-01-2004, 7:00 PM

Here is what I don't get:

The white (neutral) and green (EGC) connect to the same darn place in the main breaker box. Now, in the house panel, they are separated...I actually found the code specifically stating this.
Yeah, Chris, I spent some time in EE, too, and had a hard time getting over this one too. It's basically a safety issue, that if there is a break in the neutral, or a hot grounds to your equipment frame, there is a current return path other than through you to ground.

Interestingly, I always thought one of the attractions of running conduit was to avoid having to run the bare wire (Romex) or green wire. Conduit, of course, is also nice as one can pull wires easily in the future for upgrades.
Again, safety. That was the old way, but somewhere along the line "they" decided it would be safer to run a separate ground and not use the conduit/boxes for ground purposes. Metal conduit now only serves the purpose of being really good protection for the wiring.

Rob, I plan to gut my garage to the studs so I can rewire, reinsulate, redrywall and do some minor sturctural work, etc. Frankly, I don't see how one can easily get the rigid stuff into the wall. I guess one uses a lot of couplers? The flex is cake to meader through/along an open-stud wall.
One word: notches. That, or you run romex. Oftentimes, conduit is run on top of the finished surface, though I know that conduit is always required in Chicago, so they must bury it in the walls somehow.

Rob Russell

06-01-2004, 7:08 PM

Here is what I don't get:

The white (neutral) and green (EGC) connect to the same darn place in the main breaker box. Now, in the house panel, they are separated...I actually found the code specifically stating this.

If I am running circuits from the main breaker box, why do I need to run a white and a green?? They are both grounded...at the same potential...carry the same current, etc.

The EGQ provides an alternate return path for the current. In the event there is a ground fault (current flows through something other than the "neutral"), you want it to be the EGC, not you.

Interestingly, I always thought one of the attractions of running conduit was to avoid having to run the bare wire (Romex) or green wire. Conduit, of course, is also nice as one can pull wires easily in the future for upgrades.

I don't dispute anything you've said. It's code compliant to run EMT or Flexible metal conduit where both the conduit and fittings are listed for grounding, and a whole bunch of other specific circumstances. This means that the joints and connections of the conduit must be installed as listed and with appropriate tools. For example, that means if a screw or bolt has a torque setting, you need to use a torque screwdriver/wrench to properly install the fittings.

I like wires. They're easier for someone after me to understand - idiot proof, if you will.

Rob, I plan to gut my garage to the studs so I can rewire, reinsulate, redrywall and do some minor sturctural work, etc. Frankly, I don't see how one can easily get the rigid stuff into the wall. I guess one uses a lot of couplers? The flex is cake to meader through/along an open-stud wall.

If you're gutting the garage, why run anything other than "Romex" in the walls? Why run conduit, unless you think you need to swap conductors later?

Hey, thanks for all your help...I just want to be prepared. Heck, I may get permits and everything!! Nah.... ;)

I'd pull a permit. It's not worth having this come up as an issue when you sell the house. The then buyers could force you to upgrade to the then current code if significant wiring is discovered during the home inspection.

Rob Russell

06-01-2004, 7:13 PM

Again, safety. That was the old way, but somewhere along the line "they" decided it would be safer to run a separate ground and not use the conduit/boxes for ground purposes. Metal conduit now only serves the purpose of being really good protection for the wiring.

Jason,

Properly listed and installed metal conduit/flex can serve as the EGC. That's just not my preference. I think enough homeowners confuse the purpose of the "neutral" and EGC, so I wouldn't want to install something that didn't make it crystal clear. If you're pulling 3 wires, pull 4.

FYI, PVC is flexible enough to bend so it can be run horizontally through studs. Corners are a real pain. :eek: Off the top of my head, I'm not sure how I'd handle them.

Rob

Ken Garlock

06-01-2004, 7:19 PM

Hi Chris. Back when we were planning our house, I bought a book at Amazon called "House Wiring with the National Electrical Code" by Ray C Mullin. I liked it for two reasons. First, I didn't try to melt you down with pages from the NEC. Second, it is orgainized as a self study course. Each section has an objectives, text, and short quiz. At least I was able to talk with the electrical contractor without sounding ignorant which somtimes hard for me ;)

The book is a paperback 8x10 costs around 15 to 20 dollars, IIRCC.

If you remember Euler's formula e**ix = cos(x) + isin(x), the book will be a cake walk for you :)

Chris Padilla

06-01-2004, 7:25 PM

Chris Padilla

06-01-2004, 7:41 PM

I like wires. They're easier for someone after me to understand - idiot proof, if you will.

If you're gutting the garage, why run anything other than "Romex" in the walls? Why run conduit, unless you think you need to swap conductors later?

I'd pull a permit. It's not worth having this come up as an issue when you sell the house. The then buyers could force you to upgrade to the then current code if significant wiring is discovered during the home inspection.
Thanks, Rob. Maybe I'll just get another spool of #10 green.

I'm running conduit to protect the wiring and to make future pulls of wire easier. I'm going to be putting a lot of stuff on the wall for "the shop" and such...I just want to extra-protect everything. I think I'll put in several extra boxes in case I want to add things later.

Yeah, I should pull a permit but I wonder if the inspection will find other issues that were there before me that I'll be forced to fix. I guess in the name of safety, I should do it. It is the right thing to do.

Rob Russell

06-01-2004, 7:52 PM

Thanks, Rob. Maybe I'll just get another spool of #10 green.

I'm running conduit to protect the wiring and to make future pulls of wire easier. I'm going to be putting a lot of stuff on the wall for "the shop" and such...I just want to extra-protect everything. I think I'll put in several extra boxes in case I want to add things later.

Yeah, I should pull a permit but I wonder if the inspection will find other issues that were there before me that I'll be forced to fix. I guess in the name of safety, I should do it. It is the right thing to do.

Chris,

if the wiring is in the walls, it's protected.

Run a bunch of 10/3 romex. That will allow you to run any machine you want, other than a 10HP+ sander. All my Felder 7.5 HP stuff will be running on #10.

With a little planning, you'll have more than enough juice in the garage with the 10/3, and it will be cheaper and easier than conduit/single conductors.

If you insist on conduit, why not surface mount it. Running all that stuff through the walls will be a pain. A nice, neat job of EMT surface mounted won't look funny. Make your insulation job a lot easier, too.

You could run flex, but get a small section and try it. #10 means big boxes, which will take up a lot of room in your wall.

Rob

Tyler Howell

06-01-2004, 9:32 PM

Thanks, Tyler. I don't mind spending money to do something right...I just wanna do it myself. No way would I pay an electrician to do something I would enjoy doing...just doesn't seem right. :D

Now tell me about your lil' crimper.... :)I want you to bend some pipe. It's an art to make it look good and move fast but it is soooooo safe. We want to protect that sweet little honey we see helping you out:o . If you get in a jam the borg will sell you 45 *& 90* bends, It would be very respectable to go 12 and 10 gage wire for your system. Besides you can get more colors of wire (very handy) and there is nothing more satisfying than a brightly colored panel.

110 plugs weren't intended for 10 gage wire don't force it. You will find that GFICs will not if bearly fit in a 2x4 box.
You said it yourself "I don't mind spending money to do something right"

Wes Bischel

06-02-2004, 12:55 AM

Chris,
Just to add a few non-electrical thoughts. When you go for the permit, ask if the municipality has a booklet or guidelines printed up on how they like specific things handled for new and reno construction. It should also tell you if they follow NEC to the letter, what if any revisions they have adopted or if they have just do their own thing.
On my garage build, I followed NEC to the letter only to have the inspector tell me though they follow NEC, there are some things they like done their way - :(

Wes

PS In Chicago, they let you use BX (Greenfield/armored cable) for retrofit applications where conduit isn't practical, though if I remember correctly main runs still needed to be rigid. DAMHIKT

Tyler Howell

06-02-2004, 8:20 AM

Wes

PS In Chicago, they let you use BX (Greenfield/armored cable) for retrofit applications where conduit isn't practical, though if I remember correctly main runs still needed to be rigid. DAMHIKT
WES, Is the use of BX new for the Windy City??? For the longest time EMT or rigid was required every where??? Try snaking that stuff through a remudal! :eek:

Chris Padilla

06-02-2004, 10:40 AM

Bob Hovde

06-02-2004, 10:52 AM

Ken Garlock

06-02-2004, 11:05 AM

Ha...yes, Ken, I do except REAL EEs use 'j' instead of 'i' for the imaginary number symbol! :) You might be a physicist/mathematician using i....

Should we go into hyperbolics? sinh, cosh, tanh.... :D Now you are talking my language.... :D

sin x = (e^+jx - e^-jx)/2j and

cos x=(e^+jx + e^-jx)/2

:D :D :D

Oh yes, how could I forget the famous "j" notation. ;) I have a BS in Math, and have been a Ham Radio operator since 1956, so I can tell one electron from another, well almost :D

Let's hear it for James Clerk Maxwell ;) :D

Chris Padilla

06-02-2004, 11:22 AM

Chris,

I'm getting ready to re-wire my garage, also. Why did you decide on 10 gauge wire for everything? It seems like way overkill to me. (It's been so long since I studied EE that I had to study by candlelight! :D )

Bob
Basically, just that, Bob. I wanted to overkill stuff plus I didn't want to buy many rolls of many different gauges of wires so I just bought #10 to be "done with it."

However, now this thread has me reconsidering...sigh.... This is a good thing even if it makes me a bit cranky. It is like "I really don't know everything!" :D

Rob Russell

06-02-2004, 11:58 AM

All right...I'm going to talk to the city about this. Thanks for the thoughts, Wes. I have a GC buddy who'll help me out as well so he should get me going in the right direction.

Tyler, how do the other colored wires work? I assume that white is always neutral and green is always EGC. After that, we have black and red for the two opposite phase hots. Are the other colored ones assumed/allowed to be hot as well? Orange, purple, and blue are 3 I can recall off the top of my head although I assume there are others.

Maybe I'll try rigid...maybe....

Conventional color schemes would have blue as the 3rd hot phase in a 3-phase Y scheme, where the voltage from each phase to ground is the same. An example would be 120/208.

The orange is required when running 4-wire 3-phase delta service, where there is a "hot" or "wild" phase. An example of this would be the voltages from a rotary phase convertor fed by single phase 240v. If you check the potential between the generated leg and ground, it's around 208 volts. That'll fry tools and machinery fast.

Dunno about purple.

I wouldn't use anything other than black, red, white and green/bare. You're just asking for questions from the AHJ.

===============

Question on your whole garage gut and rewire ...

What is your long term goal for the garage? How will you use it? What do you have/plan to run for machinery? Do you need 3-phase? What's the largest HP machine you expect to run?

Rob

Tyler Howell

06-02-2004, 12:25 PM

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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Chris
Green or no insulation is your Ground only tied to white (Common) at the main entry to the house. There is no guarantee that it is a EGC if just tied to a water pipe. There are specific parameters for and EGC.)

<DIR>The rest of the time Common and Ground are separate in your system. Your Grd is there for your protection (helps with other stuff including interference from/to electronic gizmos. May even cause interference) Don't be fooled There can be a lethal difference of potential between common and Grd down stream from you panel.

Another color denotes a change in circuit. If I see a black go into a switch and red come out usually that means black is the supply and red is the lead to the load (lamp, heater, switched outlet). Other colors can fill the role of the red. Who knows who put it together?? An EE, PHD, a handy man????

For example all yellow = task lighting, all blue = 20 A convenience outlets south wall...... All slate = dedicated sanding station. Hot leads only Common is still white. A piece of tape or numbe can do the same thing at the bitter ends. Any where in route you can see what the circuit is. FYI Yellow is the ground in the marine world!

What I'm try to encourage you to do is use the correct stuff as it was intended. Yes #10 will fit a 110 outlet (some times). But that is not its intent.:o

My whole thrust has been for my recent projects "when the next guy tears this apart 100 years from now he is going to say "well done". The SOB Tyler new his stuff. :cool:

If they open a box even for an upscale shop with #10 supplying 15 & 20 amp services the first response would be "more $$ than brains, probably worked really hard to squeeze all that in there too". It's when a wire wont make a turn or clamp down solid to a terminal that comprinises are made.

Next protect yourself and family from the beast. Yes you can hide the wire in walls but EMT, PVC and rigid dissipate a lot of heat that over time, can cause failure some where in the system.(fire) I've said it before conduit can take a direct hit and all is good. Just try tearing out a properly installed system with out going through the individual steps!
Insurance copanies have been known to not pay of on a fire where there is a code violation. Even if that wasn't the cause of the fire.:eek:
Good luck my friend, you have got too much invested to cut corners.

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Chris Padilla

06-02-2004, 12:51 PM

What is your long term goal for the garage? How will you use it? What do you have/plan to run for machinery? Do you need 3-phase? What's the largest HP machine you expect to run?

Rob
My long-term goal for the garage is to make a good, well-planned, everything has its place, kind of woodshop.

This is going much along the lines of Frank's workshop up in Canada now that I think about it. I need stuff like a dedicated 30 A, 240 V hook-up for the DC (5 HP motor). I also have my MM20 (4.2 HP, 240 V) and my FS-41 16" J/P [aircraft carrier!] coming (4.8 HP, 240 V). I was thinking to wire up my Delta DP for 240 V. My TS runs on a 3 HP, 240 V motor. I have my air compressor (120V). I have no plans for any 3-phase but who knows for the future? Conduit, if properly planned, should allow me to pull more wires if I need it, I think. #10 everywhere, while certainly not necessary and perhaps even detrimental, seemed to be a safe route but I'm not so sure now.

I still need to figure out exactly where some of the larger machines will live but I need flexiblity. Needs change over time...maybe in year one the J/P worked well on the left side of the garage but suddenly I found it worked better on the other side. Everything will be on wheels but that doesn't mean I'll need to move them alot.

Rob Russell

06-02-2004, 1:14 PM

Tyler,

FYI, the proper NEC terms are "grounded" and "grounding". A lot of folks use "Neutral" for the white, current-carrying return conductor and "ground", "grounding" and Equipment Grounding Conductor/EGC for the bare/green conductor. I'd stay away from the term "common" for anything, but YMMV.

I disagree with using colors such as you noted, with the exception that it is a common practice to use red as the switched conductor when applicable. I feel it's a lot clearer to stay with black/red as the colors for hot legs and stay away from anything else unless you're doing 3-phase or wiring stuff inside a control panel (like the control panel for a rotary phase convertor, but that's more EE stuff than house wiring). Why? I think 's likely to be clearer to the next guy that opens the panel. Again, YMMV.

I do agree with your comment about marking conductors. I took a copy of the blueprint for our addition, numbered each one, and labeled the conductors in every box. If you pull out a receptacle or switch, you'd be able to tell specifically where the power was supplied from and where any outgoing feeds run to. Obviously, you only need to mark the hot conductors. ;)

JMHO :D

Rob

Rob Russell

06-02-2004, 1:58 PM

My long-term goal for the garage is to make a good, well-planned, everything has its place, kind of woodshop.

This is going much along the lines of Frank's workshop up in Canada now that I think about it. I need stuff like a dedicated 30 A, 240 V hook-up for the DC (5 HP motor). I also have my MM20 (4.2 HP, 240 V) and my FS-41 16" J/P [aircraft carrier!] coming (4.8 HP, 240 V). I was thinking to wire up my Delta DP for 240 V. My TS runs on a 3 HP, 240 V motor. I have my air compressor (120V). I have no plans for any 3-phase but who knows for the future? Conduit, if properly planned, should allow me to pull more wires if I need it, I think. #10 everywhere, while certainly not necessary and perhaps even detrimental, seemed to be a safe route but I'm not so sure now.

I still need to figure out exactly where some of the larger machines will live but I need flexiblity. Needs change over time...maybe in year one the J/P worked well on the left side of the garage but suddenly I found it worked better on the other side. Everything will be on wheels but that doesn't mean I'll need to move them alot.

Thanks for "defining the problem" a bit.

Let's chew on this and see what people come up with for wiring suggestions.

As an "off the cuff" perspective, running 10/3 NM (Romex) will work for up to 5HP on 240v machines. Based on the section that cover wiring for motors, you must use conductors with an ampacity of 125% of the motors FLA rating, where the FLA rating is from the NEC table not the motor nameplate. A 5HP, 230v motor has a FLA rating from the table of 28 amps. 125% of 28 amps = 35 amps, which is the rated ampacity of #10 @ 75*C (forget the 30 amp breaker for a minute). Anything larger and you must go to #8, or 3-phase motors because they draw less current.

Rob

Wes Bischel

06-02-2004, 2:23 PM

Tyler,
This was twenty plus years ago, We were adding a few oulets per room to our little bungalow, and we were allowed to use BX for the final run to the boxes - about 18" or so each from the basement into the first floor wall cavity. These were coming off of the rigid conduit main runs. The inspector made a big deal about how nice he was being. My dad and me both got a kick out of the whole thing considering the attic was running knob and tube for the existing wiring.

I know in the past, the office furniture people hated working in Chicago because all of the prewired cubicles had the wiring ripped out and re-run on-site by an electrician.

Being "raised" with Chicago codes, I kinda freaked when I moved to PA and found Romex everywhere. My house was built 50 years ago with the silver fabric wrapped "romex" so around here it's nothing new.

Wes

Tyler Howell

06-02-2004, 2:31 PM

Sorry Rob,

I don't know what YMMV means???

I do know that my box is prettier than yours:p .
We have signal grd. and chasis Grd running right next to each other and the surprise, end up the same place. There are specs for length and size of wire so it goes deeper
We have 100s of supply and control circuits in our facilities from -24vdc to thousands of volts RF in the GHz range. and every thing in between.

Color coding in industrial and household wiring helps you keep track of what is what, where. You can wire an entire house with a spool of #12-3 Romex from the box out and do a pretty good job. It costs more money to color code but warns the trained eye there is more going on there than a 1 breaker system. An untrained eye has no business in there. This forum is training, books and knowlegable sources are also a source of training but not the diploma class.

I have seen and smelled the end result of a trained electrician welded to the ground by a 270 line off a lighting voltage regulator that doesn't stop when it sees a short circuit.

I go to homes and businesses to help out after the fire department has left. I try to get there before they come.

Ladies and gents you invite us into your homes and play areas with your pictures and web sights. I have a little tunnel vision and I that shows in my past threads.;)

PS. a whise old sea captain accompanying (SP) me on my first voyage as ships master told me to "put the GPS and chart down and look up. you'll know exactly where you are."

Rob Russell

06-02-2004, 2:47 PM

YMMV = Your Method May Vary.

I'll admit that colors would make for a prettier box. If that were how wire colors were determined, SWMBO'd have had me use purple, lavender, blues and greens. Red? Nope. :D

Jim Becker

06-02-2004, 3:51 PM

I'll admit that colors would make for a prettier box. If that were how wire colors were determined, SWMBO'd have had me use purple, lavender, blues and greens.On a more serious note, addressed more to Tyler, just because you "can" use lots of colors to code things doesn't make it a good practice, especially in a residential situation. Sticking to convention really helps with safety when the potential for others working on the same wiring in the present and future is great. (Both pro, homeowner and future homeowner) Even simple things like marking a white conductor in a 240v circuit run with Romex with black tape or Sharpie is very important. I like Rob's idea of numbering conductors...that would really be ideal. Unfortunately, it's sometimes hard enough to identify a particular circuit in some homes and the electrical contractors that originally wired many of our homes were not exactly organized the same way that anal folks are! In my shop building, I at least have all the outlets numbered with circuit designationss and any j-boxes for 240v circuits are clearly marked as such (plus the circuit number) to avoid confusion in the future. But I did all the wiring and had control over it.

Now, for low voltage LAN/Telco/Control/Security, etc., absolutely I subscribe to "rainbow" color coding and have always used it, both at home and in my 23 years in IT and telecommunications. Structured wiring and organization is our friend!

For Chris, I admire your desire to do a world-class wiring job in your shop, but suggest you consider stepping back a little and consider what is really needed and adding just a little bit to make it better. If you are putting wiring in the wall, use Romex if it's allowed by code. BX is fine for that, too, as it's flexible and easy to install, albeit harder to terminate due to the careful cutting necessary on the sheath. Both are safe and cost effective. No-way would I try to put conduit in an existing wall unless it was flex. Conduit for your 240v work would be surface mounted which means when you sell your house to move to that mansion in the Colorado hills, the new owner can remove it easily for both safety and asthetic reasons. You can even share circuits for your MM20 and FS41 Smart as long as your local code will allow it. (cyclone and air compressor should be dedicated circuits) I used these principles in my shop and it's worked out really well. The wiring I did is so much nicer than what was in the building originally, is neat and organized at both ends of the termination and is easy to make changes and adjustments. I like that and have taken advantage of it many times in the four and a half years I've had this shop...with several renovations/changes since the beginning.

Chris Padilla

06-02-2004, 4:12 PM

Conduit for your 240v work would be surface mounted which means when you sell your house to move to that mansion in the Colorado hills, the new owner can remove it easily for both safety and asthetic reasons. You can even share circuits for your MM20 and FS41 Smart as long as your local code will allow it.
It is interesting that you suggest the 240 V stuff be on the outside of the wall. If I go flex, that can always be pulled out or simply rewired regardless of whether it is outside the wall or buried.

You see, one of the main reasons I'm remodelling is that the previous owner had all kinds of conduit routed on the outside of the wall. It looked terrible and made hanging cabinets a PITA. In fact, after ripping out all the conduit, I still have two fairly large GAS lines routed on the outside of the wall and I'm not quite sure what to do about those...I HATE 'EM! I may box them in 'cause it is the cheapest thing to do or furr out the whole wall but then I lose space but gain a perfectly smooth wall.

I'm big on nice clean, smooth walls. I used to wire buildings (old and new) for sound before I started college and always prided myself on hiding wires where others couldn't.

Jim Becker

06-02-2004, 4:22 PM

I understand your dilemna, Chris. Hiding what you can is a nice idea. I was only suggesting that you consider the tradeoffs, both for cost and time.

Bummer on the gas lines...they may be more difficult to relocate for a whole host of reasons, particularly since they are crossing what is effectively a garage despite the conversion you are planning! Boxing them in and utilizing said "box" in a creative way might be the best solution.

Bob Hovde

06-02-2004, 4:47 PM

Jim,

I have the same question as Chris. Why does the 240V need to be in conduit rather than 10-3 w/gnd in the walls?

Bob

Tyler Howell

06-02-2004, 4:53 PM

Jim Becker

06-02-2004, 4:55 PM

I have the same question as Chris. Why does the 240V need to be in conduit rather than 10-3 w/gnd in the walls?
The word "need" was not used. I only suggested it for the 240v heavy machinery circuits for future convenience. I have a mixture in my shop...some are in the wall and some are in conduit, depending on "when" I put in the particular circuit. When I bought the FS350, the fact that I had the conduit to that location made it really easy to change from a 20amp #12 drop to a 30a #10 drop. Conduit also made it easy to accomodate a change in the position of my lathe and bandsaw. (That drop only has conduit for the vertical to the outlet, both are mounted on the surface, which made it easy to move)

'Just flexibility and personal preference. In or out of the wall is just fine. Chris's "needs" are different than mine...he should definitely do what works best for him!

Chris Padilla

06-02-2004, 5:21 PM

Ah, I understand better, Sensai Becker...! :)

I was thinking to put in a few empty boxes or even some extra empty conduit runs (no don't tell me code fobids empty conduit although it wouldn't shock me :rolleyes: ) to various key points or something of that ilk to help with future changes.

I think the first thing I need to do is to figure out to the best of my knowledge where I am putting everything. I have a good idea where the DC will go so I can start from there and figure out where the BS will live/be used, where the J/P will live/be used, the DP, Compressor, TS, lumber storage, bench(es), Router Table, Toolchest, and etc.

Only after I do this should I tackle the electrical but even then, you all have provide some invaluable insight and I most certainly appreciate it...even if I don't heed all of it.

Great thread!

Jim Becker

06-02-2004, 5:31 PM

I think the first thing I need to do is to figure out to the best of my knowledge where I am putting everything. I have a good idea where the DC will go so I can start from there and figure out where the BS will live/be used, where the J/P will live/be used, the DP, Compressor, TS, lumber storage, bench(es), Router Table, Toolchest, and etc.
If I am reading your pictures correctly, your shop is something like 24' x 24' (typical two-car garage) give or take. "Mobility" is really important. Don't forget you need to be able to actually assemble and finish those projects you {are|will be} creating and easy rearrangement is a must. Other than the FS41 Smart, which you likely will prefer keeping in one place based on my experience with its slightly smaller sister/brother, you might consider a flexible arrangement of electrical and DC drops so you can easily move things around. "Tool corrals" for the things you don't use constantly are a great idea for any shop, no matter what the size. I treat my combo sander, router table and DP that way currently and when I add the Performax 22-44 Plus sometime this year, it will be treated simliarly. In fact, the only tool in my shop (other than the stationary, cantilevered miter station which also provides lumber storage) that is "fixed" in position is my Stubby lathe. (And I have a way to move it if I really need to, albeit it requires a bit more time and effort to do so) Even my workbench is easily movable with two casters on one end that don't touch the floor unless I lift the other end up about 6".

Chris Padilla

06-02-2004, 6:00 PM

Yep, mobility is the name of the game although I wish I could plant the TS right in the middle and not have to worry about moving it. Oh, my poor BMW staying outside all the time! :eek:

I took a quick shop tour of your place, Jim, (update that puppy! :D ) and I have some better ideas now.

Jim Becker

06-02-2004, 6:03 PM

Oh, my poor BMW staying outside all the time! Only the tractor gets a garage around here! :p

I took a quick shop tour of your place, Jim, (update that puppy!)Yea, yea, yea...in my copious free time. I haven't done anything on the site in quite some time. Too many distractions...like selling lots of IP telephony for work! :D Seriously, I do need to do some updates.

Rob Russell

06-02-2004, 6:18 PM

One more then I go out to play in this beautiful whether The industry is bringing the wonderfull world of color to you. Romex has a color coded jacket so you can tell at a glance whether you have #10, 12, 14 gage wire. Not sure if anything else will be offered in the future:eek:.
Rob, Look that up!
They are also adding blue and slate to the internal strands.
Wasn't my idea. Good tool, works great.

Actually, I think color coding the jacket on NM is a good idea. I've seen the yellow #12 and orange #10 at the local HD for about a year. Makes the inspectors' job a lot easier. They should also have a color for #8, sinche that's what tends to get run for electric stoves. I don't believe that there is anything, yet, which requires the use of color-coded NM.

I don't have a problem with color. I believe it should be consistently applied. I disagree with "yellow for lighting, blue for the table saw receptacle, etc." in a residential environment. Industrial is a different story, as is control wiring. Right now there is no way to consistently apply color in a residential arena. Would you do it by load type (lighting vs. receptacle) or protection type (nothing vs. GFI vs AFI) or some other criteria? Are you going to tell stores and electricians they have to carry all these different colors? That doesn't make sense to me.

I think this horse is dead now.