Veneer questions

[Larry Fox]

I am working on some cabinetry and stuff for my bathroom remodel and plan on using some shop-made veneer for any parts that I can. I don't have a problem with the veneering per-se but the ones I do have are related to the obvioulsy moist environment in a bathroom and are;

Veneer will be shop-made so will be thicker than the commercial stuff by a good amount and I will press it in a vac press. This is cabinetry so there should be no exposure to water due to standing water or submersion - just the normal exposure you might expect from something being in a bathroom.

1) I was planning on using UniBond 800 as the glue as it has a high moisture resistance. Would there be any reson UniBond would not be good here?

2) In terms of substrate, is MDF suitable or should I look at something like baltic-burch ply or something different?


Thanks in advance for your time . .

L

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Larry, I would not use MDF. That stuff does stupid things around moisture, why risk it?

[Larry Fox]

Steve, what would you use in it's place? BB-ply?

[keith micinski]

I am used Birch plywood in my bathroom for the ceiling and painted it white. I t has been 3 years and it seems to be really stable. I am going to repaint everything again this winter but I think you would be fine from a stability and structural stand point to use it as a base for a veneer.

[Jamie Buxton]

Unibond 800 will be fine.

MDF would work. However, I dislike the stuff for lots of reasons. For a substrate, I generally use maple ply in a shop grade or C3 or whatever. It isn't that much more expensive than MDF, and I can use leftovers for other projects.

[Frank Drew]

I agree with the others who prefer ply to MDF; but if you really want to use it, isn't there a waterproof MDF (or did I just imagine it?)

In general, though, and ignoring its defects for the moment, it is a good substrate for veneer, and does come very flat, unlike a lot of ply.

And no matter what substrate you use, best practice would be to veneer both sides with similarly thick material.

[Chris Padilla]

MDF is an excellent substrate for veneers but it certainly has its drawbacks.

I think IF the MDF is completely encased in veneers (top and bottom) and hardwood edges (edge-banding), it should be okay in a high-moisture environment but this is just a guess on my part.

I plan to do exactly this on an upcoming project but the shelving unit will be in the living room...not in a bathroom.

The unibond is great but be forwarned that it needs 65 degrees F or higher to cure properly. That could be an issue right now. An electric blanket will fix this little issue. Check out www.veneersupplies.com (http://www.veneersupplies.com) for more stuff and other glues. www.joewoodworker.com (http://www.joewoodworker.com) is also an excellent resource.

Also, the thinner the veneer you apply, the better results over time you will likely get. The issue is wood movement: thinner veneers can be held better by the glue...thicker ones could pop off on you.

[Brad Shipton]

Personally, if the panels are small enough and you are not talking about using a burl or crotch veneer I would use TBIII. Nothing wrong with Uni-bond, its great, but I dont see it as being necessary. As for the sub, I think MDF will be fine. I used MDF in my bath vanity and it is holding up. Then again, I dont take it into the shower with me:) If the finish doesnt hold up to the moisture, I suspect your veneer will show problems at the same time the sub causes problems, but maybe I am missing part of your design.

Have you vac pressed thick veneers before? I veneered some 1 3/4" x 12" x 96" door stiles with 1/4" shop made cherry veneer in the vac press and I found that unless the stock is close to perfect, the 15psi clamp pressure generated will not overcome stock imperfections. If I do that again in the future, I will be getting some 1/8" veneer from Certainly wood. Veneer suppliers get the premium pieces of wood.

Brad

[Larry Fox]

I used MDF in my bath vanity and it is holding up. Then again, I dont take it into the shower with me:)

So, wait .... now I am completely confused. How does one ever get completely clean without taking their vanity into the shower? What do you set your razor, soap and stuff on when you are in there. This could explain why I have been going through so many vanities. Wife has been buying them in bulk at BJ's when she goes lately to save $$ on them - gotta save it where you can. Doh!!

For this project, I picked up some really nice 8/4 walnut that, while I could just split open and make 3/4" solid wood bookmatched panels out of, I would like to get some more economy out of if I could. I typically use MDF because it is flat and, in my opinion, makes a great veneer substrate but have my doubts about it in a moist environment like a bathroom. Could certainly use bb-ply as well.

Finish I intend on using is some Target Coatings Hybrvar that I have left over from another job which I think will do the trick nicely.

I am thinking the Unibond because I didn't think the cold-press glue that Joe Woodworker sells was suitable for a moist environment like a bathroom (thought I recalled reading that somewhere).

I have done a little bit of shop-made veneer in the vac press but have done mostly commercial stuff from Joe so am definitly open to tips.

Bandsaw is an MM-16 with Leonix Tri-Master so I think I am set to get it pretty thin and figure that 1/16" should be about the right size and should be attainable with my setup asuming that I take my time and set things up properly.

Thanks again for your time guys - very helpful replies indeed.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, what would you use in it's place? BB-ply?

Yep, thats what I would use.

[Chris Padilla]

Larry,

Interesting: I'm going to do the same thing with walnut as well. Check out my project. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92396)

I have a Minimax 20" bandsaw and after some experimenting between varous Lenox blades: a Trimaster, a Woodmaster CT, and a Diemaster2 (bimetal blade, 6 tpi, hook style), I'm finding that the cut from the Trimaster and Diemaster2 to be very good with the Diemaster2 having a far smaller (thinner) kerf over the Trimaster. The Trimaster and Woodmaster CT are both carbides and 1" wide with the Diemaster2 being 1/2" wide.

After hearing David Marks make comments here and there throughout his shows, I managed to pick up that he like to use bimetal, 6 tpi blades for resawing and I always noticed that for the size of bandsaw he uses for resawing, his blades seemed rather thin (i.e. less than 1" wide). I also heard he like to use Lenox for his blades. Armed with all that, I ended up with the Diemaster2 and so far, I'm quite surprised and pleased by its cut. I'm also happy that the Diemaster2 costs about 1/3 less than the Trimaster or Woodmaster CT AND has a smaller kerf than the two carbides. This ought to yield more veneers from one's stock although certainly the bimetal blade isn't going to last as long as the carbide blade.

Email joe at joewoodworker and ask him about the moisture performance of the veneers glues available at veneersupplies. Perhaps you shoud consider plastic resin glue?

[Larry Fox]

Chris, looks like an interesting project and very similar in terms of build issues to the onr I am looking at except mine has the moisture issue. I will shoot Joe an email asking about his glue. I have always gotten very good customer service from Joe and been very happy with the product I have gotten.

I am jealous of your obviously well-developed Sketchup skills. I am going to go out on a proverbial limb and claim that I am of at least average intellegence. That being said, I cannot for the life of me figure out how to work Sketchup properly. I have worked with 3-d programs in the past (Autocad, DesignCad) with success but Sketchup confounds me. I have tried it and end up beating my head against the desk and storming away from the computer in frustration.

I can't claim to have done a ton of resawing but have tried the Woodslicer and the TriMaster and while the Woodslicer is nice I find that the TriMaster does a really nice job and obviously will last a long time. It does come with a hefty price both in terms of actual $$ layout and in terms of the kerf that it makes. Pretty wide.

[Brad Shipton]

Not sure if a link to printed info is ok, but here goes. If it gets scraped, PM me and I will send direct. This is an excerpt on glue choices for veneering from Johnathan Bensons Book, Veneer and Inlay. Maybe it might help. Good book.

http://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Veneer%20Glue/?action=view&current=8ccfc9c5.pbw

Your BS setup will need to be spot on for book matching otherwise it can loose the effect.

Brad

[Chris Padilla]

I have Benson's veneering book and it is quite a nice one.

The Trimaster's kerf is 0.063" (1/16") but the finish is nearly glue ready.

The Woodmaster CT's kerf is a tad smaller at 0.051" but the finish was awfully rough and I don't think would buy you anything over the Trimaster because you'd need to cut your stock thicker to make up for lost material from drum sander passes.

The Diemaster2's kerf is around 0.040" but I must confess that I didn't put a caliper on it yet but I know for sure that it is thinner than either of the carbides. It's finish was on par with the Trimaster much to my surprise but having 6 tpi might explain that.