Holy Grail tools

[Douglas Brummett]

Am I the only one that is not overly impressed with the high end tool blades out of the box?

My most recent Hock blades have all required significant investment of time and sand paper to get flat and remove all the tool marks. This wouldn't normally be a problem, but I have 3 in the que and am just dreading the sore fingers and 1-2 hours of prep per blade. I seriously would pay double the price for blades that were lapped flat and ready to final hone :p:rolleyes:

I purchased a not-really used Lie-Nielsen shoulder plane about a month ago. It required a fair amount of time to remove the factory installed back bevel

Yesterday the most expensive hand plane I have ever purchased arrived. It is a new Lie-Nielsen adjustable block plane. I spent about 1.5 hours honing and flattening. Most of this was to remove the factory mini back-bevel and deep grinding marks. Out of the box the iron was dull, or what I consider dull (fingernail catch test). I was rewarded with an iron that would cut as light as .001" hard maple shavings on face grain. That was impressive and a nice consolation prize for the effort. On end grain I was getting screeching and a bit of chatter. This leads me to think that I may have to go back and flatten the entire back of the blade(I stopped at the feedthru hole).

Anyone else having this sort of experience? Do I just keep getting duds? Am I expecting too much?

[Joel Goodman]

I haven't had a back bevel issue with LN -- although the irons do need honing as they come from the factory. Call them or email if you have any issues -- I had a plane with a non square side and the sole needed a little flattening but they fixed it promptly and reimbursed me for my shipping costs.

[Gary Herrmann]

I've had good look with LV planes. I lapped the block plane I bought years ago, but none of the other planes I've bought from them have needed it. I do, however, lap, sharpen and hone all of my irons and chisels - regardless of who I buy them from. A few have passed the fingernail test out of box, but I lap and sharpen anyway - maybe just habit.

Does anyone actually say that their tools are ready to use out of the box? I'm pretty sure the LV tools all suggest honing at least.

Does make me think about the LV or Lapsharp systems once in awhile...

[John Schreiber]

I got a Lie Nielsen 60 1/2 earlier this year. After a bit of honing, it cut wonderfully. There was no back bevel that I was aware of. It will plane end grain, but only at the thinnest. I've never used a plane better than it though.

The newer Lee Valley blades are machine flattened and should be about perfect.

[Bill Houghton]

I need to say: I'm not a hyper-mileage kind of guy, good enough is good enough.

But, with that, I've found the Lee Valley blades come pretty darn flat and sharp. I've used a couple of them out of the box, and they cut like they're already honed.

[Tom Henderson2]

I'm a newb, so don't have a lot of background in this, but my experience is the same as yours.

Until recently, my planes were all older Stanley's, and the blades were not always in good shape. Rust pits, etc.

So I broke down and bought a couple Hock blades. The two that I have worked with both required a fair bit of flattening. Took me a LOT longer than 1-2 hours each, but most of that is probably my poor technique.

Then I bought a barely-used LN #6. The seller said he used it for a few minutes and decided it was too big, so he sold it. THe blade had what looked like belt-sanding marks along the back; it took a LOT of flattening (1000g Norton waterstone) to get flat.

Then, like you, I bought a LN adjustable-mouth low-angle block plane. THe back of that blade was about the same as the #6; what looked like belt sander marks on the back of the blade. Took a LOT of work to get flat, but again my technique and inexperience is probably part of that issue.

I've also encountered some chatter with the LN LA block plane on end grain, but dampening the wood with mineral spirits helps a LOT. And the blade edge that I put on is probably not a first-class job.

My conclusion is that even new blades require a substantial amount of work to get into first-class shape.

The LN #6 is awesome -- like a super smoother more than a big honking fore plane. The LA block is very nicely made, and I suspect most of the issues I'm having are due to my inexperience and technique.

I do wish that LN would leave the backs of the blades alone. The work they do to the backs of the blades seems to make things worse rather than better.
-TH

[Ray Gardiner]

So I broke down and bought a couple Hock blades. The two that I have worked with both required a fair bit of flattening. Took me a LOT longer than 1-2 hours each, but most of that is probably my poor technique.


Hi Tom,

I think you might be overdoing it a bit, I can't speak for LN irons, but flattening the back shouldn't be taking that long.. You can speed things up quite a lot with the steel ruler trick, just lift up the end by placing a steel ruler underneath when you are flattening the back. I can't see any iron taking more than a few minutes to flatten.

Regards
Ray

[Joel Goodman]

Another take on the flatness issue is the carbon steel plane irons that TWW sells (Ray Isles) that have a little concavity built in on back. I got one for a #7 and flattening the area near the cutting edge up to an inch and a half up the iron took about 10 minutes. They're almost .120 so they may not fit all planes.

[Bob Barkto]

A little wax on the sole will stop the screeching.

I don't know why, but planing end grain all my LN planes screech like a deamon unless waxed very regularly.
Don't have that problem with any others, but waxing still helps keep them sliding along.

I use an old parafin wax candle. Just a squiggle now and then does the trick.

[Doug Shepard]

I'm too impatient and with any LN or LV plane I've never done any honing without first using the plane for a while. I get better results after doing a bit of scary sharp tweaking, but both makes have always given pretty darn good out-of-the-box planing.

[Wilbur Pan]

Am I the only one that is not overly impressed with the high end tool blades out of the box?

My most recent Hock blades have all required significant investment of time and sand paper to get flat and remove all the tool marks.

Just curious -- how were you flattening your Hock blades?

[Bob Easton]

Hi Tom,

I think you might be overdoing it a bit, I can't speak for LN irons, but flattening the back shouldn't be taking that long.. You can speed things up quite a lot with the steel ruler trick, just lift up the end by placing a steel ruler underneath when you are flattening the back. I can't see any iron taking more than a few minutes to flatten.

Regards
Ray

The "ruler trick" produces a back bevel. Some like having a back bevel. Others don't. If you don't like a back bevel, it is tremendously difficult to remove ... and this is what Tom is talking about.

[Jim Koepke]

I have one LN plane. The note in the box said the blade was sharp, but many may find a little honing in order. Some work today got me to take it off the shelf and sharpen the blade. I noticed that the original back was fairly smooth and it only took a touch to make it shine.
So, I had a good out of box experience when it arrived. I did give the blade a few swipes of sharpening after testing it on arrival. I am fairly happy with the plane.

My Hock blades arrived very sharp and usable in my Stanleys right from the start. It was my decision after talking with Ron Hock to buy the High Carbon blades. They have dulled a bit with use, but any blade will.

Hock has a few different makers for their blades. I think mine are actually made in France. I think the ones made in Fort Bragg may be a little rougher.

My 2¢,

jim

[Mike K Wenzloff]

The "ruler trick" produces a back bevel. Some like having a back bevel. Others don't. If you don't like a back bevel, it is tremendously difficult to remove ... and this is what Tom is talking about.
Yes, the ruler trick is a back bevel to a small degree.

It takes approximately 10 seconds to grind it out via grinding the bevel. Don't try flattening it out on the back.

A belt sander also only takes a few seconds. Even using stones it can be removed in a few minutes.

Take care, Mike

[John Schreiber]

What would be the reason for trying to make the blade flat more than a 1/4 inch or so past the edge? The old Stanley's I've tuned up weren't flat by any measure and they worked for their original owners for many years.

I know. I'm being a curmudgeon here. There is a place for trying to make things perfect for their own sake. I just wouldn't want someone to think that many hours of work are necessary before a new quality plane can be used.

[Tom Henderson2]

Hi Tom,

I think you might be overdoing it a bit, I can't speak for LN irons, but flattening the back shouldn't be taking that long.. You can speed things up quite a lot with the steel ruler trick, just lift up the end by placing a steel ruler underneath when you are flattening the back. I can't see any iron taking more than a few minutes to flatten.

Regards
Ray

Hi Ray-

As I said, my inexperience and technique are likely very much part of this.

My approach is to follow the methods described by David Charlesworth in his DVD's -- I'm not experienced enough to know whether there are better ways, but I did use his "ruler trick" but only after getting the backs as flat as I could.

The issue in both cases was one "low" corner that took a lot of work to get flat. In one case there were some pretty deep scratches that also took quite a bit of effort to eliminate.

All of this flattening was using a Norton 1000g water stone. In hindsight, I should have bit the bullet and gone to coarse sandpaper since the stone was taking so darn long. Live and learn!

In both cases the back of the LN blades had been worked with a pretty coarse abrasive for the bottom ~3/4 inch of the blade.

In the case of the

Thanks for your comments.

-TH

[Paul Atkins]

I've got 6 stanley 601/2's, two with Hock blades and wish they all had them. Both blades came 'pretty flat' that just needed honing. These are bevel up planes without chipbreaker so the back really only needs to be flat for about 1/4" it seems to me. I use a coarse diamond plate taking down a lot of metal quickly and the water stones clean it up. Love those shavings you can see through.

[Douglas Brummett]

Just curious -- how were you flattening your Hock blades?

I flatten all my blades in a similar manner.
My technique:
1) check flatness by giving a quick scrub on 1000g waterstone (if flat enough to hone skip to step 4)
2) sand paper glued on granite surface plate. 80g Norton 3X if it is bad or 220g w/d if it isn't too far off.
3) back to the waterstones either 800g or 1000g
4) 4000g waterstone
5) 6000g or 8000g waterstone (both cut about the same rate, best results are to graduate thru both)

I find that sand paper cuts best for initial flattening, but I really have to be careful or have it glued down with spray adhesive (if not glued it can actually have a wave in front of the blade that dubs the edge). Belt sanders can also easily remove more material by the edges, thus making flattening a chore from there.

That 220g also comes in handy for keeping the waterstones flat throughout the honing session.

Typically I flatten 1-2" back on a blade. One of my hock blades I flattened the entire blade. I find that the 1-2" flat gives an easy registration and also coincides with about how much of the iron sticks out of my honing guide (so I can roll the burr without removing my honing guide).

From the response it sounds like
a. I am expecting too much (I will knuckle up and quit wining)
b. I have the unfortunate luck to receive LN tools that are not ready out of the box
c. Wenzloff is the man (here on I will be outsourcing all my flattening to him since he has it down pat :D )
d. My assumption that LN back bevels may have been wrong. My assumption was based on what I had received and a series of videos where one of the LN guys was showing how "they" do it with a ruler.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Ray-

<snip>
I did use his "ruler trick" but only after getting the backs as flat as I could.
<snip>

-TH

Hi Tom,

Yes, probably go a bit coarser at the start, and go straight to the ruler trick.

I think the most important thing on any plane iron is the edge. Flatness over the whole blade is not as important as that. (Assuming that the iron is not badly warped and is "bedded properly")

There are those who get satisfaction from sub micron flatness and highly polished finishes on plane irons, If that's what they like doing, by all means let them do it. (it looks great!) All I am saying, is that it probably isn't going to affect how the tool performs. (of course submicron flatness and mirror finish on the EDGE is what we are trying to achieve, just not over the whole iron)

There is a wealth of experience to be found on the forum, and there is always 10 different ways to do the same thing.

Interesting discussion..

Regards
Ray

[Steve Hamlin]

Of the blades I have, I'd order prep time (from a just a tickle to significant) LV, LN, Clifton, Ray Iles, Hock. None terrible.
Re initial shape, LV, LN and most Cliftons have been flat (though not always concave when not flat,) Ray Iles slightly concave with occasional heavy tooling marks and Hock the least consistent.

[David Keller NC]

Doug - I've had relatively good luck with LN blades - I have roughly 20 of their planes. That said, I've noticed on a few that there's the barest hint of a back-bevel, and like you, I don't like back-bevels on blades. So to make things go a whole lot faster, I just took the bevel to the grinder, ground back 1/64", and the back bevel dissappeared. No muss, no fuss, and the polishing of the back took about 30 minutes, including finding the waterstones, soaking them, flattening them, and then actually using them.

FWIW, I always put a hollow grind on a new plane blade or chisel - I do all of my honing free-hand, and a hollow grind makes this a 5 minute procedure instead of half an hour.

[Douglas Brummett]

Doug - I've had relatively good luck with LN blades - I have roughly 20 of their planes. That said, I've noticed on a few that there's the barest hint of a back-bevel, and like you, I don't like back-bevels on blades. So to make things go a whole lot faster, I just took the bevel to the grinder, ground back 1/64", and the back bevel dissappeared. No muss, no fuss, and the polishing of the back took about 30 minutes, including finding the waterstones, soaking them, flattening them, and then actually using them.

FWIW, I always put a hollow grind on a new plane blade or chisel - I do all of my honing free-hand, and a hollow grind makes this a 5 minute procedure instead of half an hour.

Great points David :D

Both my block and my shoulder plane irons from LN had a barely perceptible back bevel. Grinding the primary bevel back is the fastest way to remedy this. The block had pretty bad surface grinder marks. I am sure it was flat, but surface finish was likely 16 or 32 if you used a profilometer.

I am learning to be more proficient. My chisels and small iron planes are all hollow ground for free hand honing. I think the faster I can hone the more often I will do so.

A lot of this may just end up being growing pains. I just wanted to feel out the crowd here. So many have comented on high end planes and irons arriving in ready to use condition, I just wanted to get a reality check.

[Mark Roderick]

Yes, I have also had to spend a significant amount of time flattening the backs of blades on expensive planes.

My advice: don't try to do this on a 1000 grit waterstone, or any stone. Instead, start with a rough sandpaper on glass or granite. It's just too much bother trying to keep the stone flat when you're doing such intensive flattening.

[David Keller NC]

"My advice: don't try to do this on a 1000 grit waterstone, or any stone. Instead, start with a rough sandpaper on glass or granite. It's just too much bother trying to keep the stone flat when you're doing such intensive flattening."

A comment about doing this - it's sage advice; many newbies to hand sharpening start with too fine a grit, and spend an hour or more getting an even matte finish on a 1000 grit stone where they could've started with a 200 grit stone and cut the time required by 80%.

However, I would suggest that if you go with sandpaper in a coarse grit like 180 or so, that you plan on grinding back the bevel after you flatten the back. The reason for doing so is that it's really easy to dub over the edges of the iron on sandpaper, and the fastest way to get rid of the dub is by grinding back the bevel. If you do it before you start the back-flattening process, you may find that you also have to do it afterwards, and there's no reason to do it twice.

Doug - Something I learned while taking carving lessons - keep a leather strop charged with a fine honing compound glued down to a flat, stable piece of wood (mine's mahogany - it was a scrap, and it's very stable). There is simply no faster way to return a blade that's dull, but without any nicks that would require a honing stone, to razor sharp. With plane blades, you don't even have to dissassemble the cap iron and blade - just give the whole assembly 2 or 3 quick swipes down the strop, and you're back in business. The same advice applies when in the middle of a dovetailing operation - I typically will use the strop 2 or 3 times on my chisel as I'm chopping the waste out of the sides of a drawer.

[Douglas Brummett]

I am going to have to start stropping :)
I have about 5 different charging compound already, just need to find a leather source locally or pony up to the TFWW counter for some horse but strops
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HORSEST&Category_Code=THO

[David Keller NC]

Doug - If you have a need for leather other than a strop (upholstery, tack, etc...), one of the better places to buy it is Tandy. They've a number of locations country-wide, so you might have one in your city. The one in my town has a "scrap bin" with defects, remnants, etc... that generally runs $1.50/sq. ft.

You can also order from Tandy's web-site, and veg-tanned or oil-tanned "saddle leather" is what you want - it's the thick stuff intended for belts, tack, saddles, utility bags, and other hard-use applications.