Another dust collector thread

[Mike Schueler]

Ok, I am now convinced that I need a dust collector system. My shop is a 2 car garage, and I am running (not at once) a planer,jointer, table saw, sometimes a router, and the sanding seems to never end.

My question is this: I really just want to minimize the amount of fine dust in the air. From what I understand, dust collection systems won't handle a lot of this. Even with a 1 micron bag, there will still be a significant amount of fine dust in the air from sanding and from stuff that just can't be picked up by the dust collectors. Hence, there are air filtration systems for just the fine, airborne dust.

I am unconcerned about the larger stuff that falls to the ground and I can sweep away; I don't mind sweeping. I just want to get rid of the fine stuff.

Do I really need BOTH machines? I am really cheap but I stay away from cheap tools.

[Jason Beam]

Short answer? I'd say yes.

Here's why ...

The DC will do a much better job at reducing how much airborne dust makes it into the air. The air cleaners take awhile to catch much of the dust in the air - meanwhile, you're breathing it while you wait. It makes sense to try to minimize the fine dust that makes it into the air with a DC in that regard.

The downside to fine stuff is it takes a good amount of suction to catch those teeny little particles. That usually translates into a good deal of DC - which just happens to do very well at the big dust, too.

[glenn bradley]

Short answer? I'd say yes.

I just want to see how many of us will use that exact phrase. The JDS-750 did the best job out of several similarly spec'd units tested so don't buy a $150 Grizzly, and I like Grizzly stuff (finished 2nd to last IIRC) and expect $350 performance.

My dad bit the bullet and got the JDS and in addition to his 2HP, 6" ducted DC the shop air stays pretty clear. . . oh, I guess that would be the answer about needing the DC ;-)

[Sonny Edmonds]

...you would be better of with 3 forms of collection in the shop.
1. A dust collection system. Cyclone is the best and made to gather as much as you can set it up to catch, usually down to sub-micron. (.5 micron in mine)
2. A Shop Vac system for what gets away from the main DC system. because brooming around what's on the floor now just puts a lot of fine dust into the air.
3. And an air filtration unit. That filters the air in the shop and gets the fine dust you are interested in eleminating.

So break loose and get it done right. With a main DC system, a lot of what bothers you will be contained at the source.
And having dust collection that works makes it so much more pleasureable because everything isn't getting buried under dust.
That is why I began my quest in the mid 1990's to control the dust in my shop. Today I don't fuss with dust hardly at all. It winds up in the 55 gallon barrel of the cyclone system, or in the 16 gallon shop vac with a clean stream filter in it.
You have it good today. When I began working on dust collection it was cost prohibitive to get cyclonic in my home shop.
Now there is a lot of affordable options available, and really good ones! ;)

[Rick Thom]

One thing not yet mentioned is get the dust at source where and when you can. That means have and use the machines dust shrouds or an after-market one, a down draft table is a good thing (bought or shop built) for those who do a lot of sanding, I connect my ROS directly to my shop vac and that gets most of the fines quickly. Then the second stage is the DC for what escapes 'at source' and it tackles both the large saw dust and the fines trapped in the air stream.. The third is an ambient air cleaner for those working in confined spaces or a good fan for open-door days..

[Mike Schueler]

Hmmm....I could maybe make do with "good fan", as the vast majority of the time I have to garage door open.

However, I have tried this with a box fan before; with the door all the way open, all it does is blow dust out then back in again. I closed the door to the top of the fan, the blocked the sides with cardboard. THis worked better, but I am not sure it gets rid of the dust up high.

If I was to get only one, FOR NOW, and its the fine dust...what you you thinK?

[Steve Kohn]

Why be cheap? It's your lungs. God only gave you a couple.

When hand sanding I use a downdraft table hooked to my central dust collection system, a Jet air filter hanging from the ceiling, and still wear a dust mask.

[Vivian Ecker]

Hi Sonny,

Can you please describe the design of your system in order to remove submicron - 0.5 micron - particles? I just did a bit of milling yesterday and my super-duper felt bag from US Fabric Filters left a powdery residue on the wall! I don't need that stuff in my lungs. I have a small shop - 8 by 22 feet with 8 foot ceiling - and have a JDS air filter hanging from the ceiling but that powdery stuff is scary!

Thanks very much,
Vivian

[Bob Slater]

I guess if you don't catch it at the source you will be stiring it up each time you walk in the shop. I was thinking of making a simple downdraft table with some Peg board and a 4 inch port hooked up to the DC. Does that work adequately well? Or is there a better material for a DIY downdraft table?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, I'm the lone "no" vote I guess. I don't think you need an air cleaner. You do need however, a large cyclone with great source hookups.

Think about this, my shop is 22x22x9, so 4356 cubic feet of air. My cyclones capacity is 1200 cubic ft/min roughly, so the air in the shop get changed out once every 3.6 mins. Oneida filters are awsome, you can even get HEPA.

Of course none of this matters if you are sanding in one corner of the shop, and there are no blast gates to open there. You have to be able to use the airflow that the cyclone will create to make drafts, which can really do an effective job at catching dust. I have a long 5" hose that I use close to the router/sanders for this reason. On my system, I always have two gates open, and I really, never have dust any more. It is amazing how well this approach works.

Oh, and loose the sander, and try hand planes. :)

[Sonny Edmonds]

Hi Sonny,


Can you please describe the design of your system in order to remove sub micron - 0.5 micron - particles? I just did a bit of milling yesterday and my super-duper felt bag from US Fabric Filters left a powdery residue on the wall! I don't need that stuff in my lungs. I have a small shop - 8 by 22 feet with 8 foot ceiling - and have a JDS air filter hanging from the ceiling but that powdery stuff is scary!

Thanks very much,
Vivian

I have a Woodsucker brand cyclone separator for my main dust collection. After the air and debris is separated in the cyclonic chamber, the discharged air passes through a pleated poly spun filter cartridge that is rated at .5 micron.
In other words, something has to be smaller than .5 micron to pass through the cartridge.
Here's an example of the filter type. (http://www.oneida-air.com/filter_landing.php)
Woodsucker disappeared after hurricane Katrina and I haven't seen Larry surface since. But I'm glad I have one of his units for a number of engineering benefits. Particullarly the blower wheel.
Cyclone systems operate entirely differently than the bag type units. For one, the main stream of debris in a bag unit passes through the blower before it goes to the bag section.
So the fan on a cyclone system only sees the finest dust that remains in the air. The final filter is what catches that.
Here is more details about it. (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/dust_collection/cyclonic_filtering.htm)
Cyclones require less servicing than the bag units do. But adding a separator barrel, or better yet a cyclonic separator between the unit and the source can make those dreadful cleanings further apart.
(Naturally, those cleaning vary depending on what the system is handling.)
Hope this helps.

Sonny

[Sonny Edmonds]

I guess if you don't catch it at the source you will be stiring it up each time you walk in the shop. I was thinking of making a simple downdraft table with some Peg board and a 4 inch port hooked up to the DC. Does that work adequately well? Or is there a better material for a DIY downdraft table?

I built in a downdraft table into a large shop table. I didn't like the piece of aluminum sheet metal I used for it, "pot marks" on my wood. :mad:
So I went to Lowe's and saw this white plastic peg board. I put that in place on my table. But it warps with the heat of summer.
I'd stick with the 1/4" masonite peg board for your downdraft table.
And expect to need a tremendous amount of air movement to get good results.
My DC system, although hugely powerfull, is disappointing to me in that one application.

[Karl Brogger]

It doesn't take care of the health aspect of dust, but a leaf blower works wonders on getting that super fine dust out of a shop.

[Mike Schueler]

Oh, and loose the sander, and try hand planes. :)

I've spent too much on everything else to get high quality hand planes, a dust collection system, air filtration system and the time to learn how to use all that AND still have my wife talk to me.

So. I am leaning toward a dust collector/air filtration system, and then learning how to use a cabinet scraper.

I will also look into these cyclones, if they are sufficient unto themselves without an air filtration system.

I appreciate everyone's input, and figured it would be a little like this.

[Mike Schueler]

Ok, after looking up some stuff on cyclones I found this guy:

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/ducting.cfm#DuctingIntroduction

He has a LOT to say about dust collection and cyclones, and has instructions on how to build your own cyclone.

Interesting point he has about venting dust outside, and it makes perfect sense really. I think I could come up with a way to get one of the grizzly cyclones and fix a vent outside the garage, and spare myself the air cleaner. Buying both a dust collector (standard) and air cleaner are between 800-100 bucks, and it sounds like there's still a fair bit of dust anway. Seems a little futile after reading his information.

[Dave Bender]

Mike, if you don't collect dust at source then your lungs WILL collect it. You use a DC for collecting from your stationary power tools, shop vac (w/hepa filter) to collect from handheld power tools (freehand router, sanders, biscuit machine, etc), and a dust mask to protect your lungs from what the DC's don't collect. An ambient air filter does not protect you but works well in reducing airborne dust. You still need to wear a dust mask (or respirator) while running your ambient air filter ( your lungs are breathing what the air filter is collecting). The ambient air filters help get the shop ready for the next day.

[Jimmy Williams]

Funny, I was just about to do a search for ambient air cleaners when I saw this thread. I have a Jet canister dust collector but all that really catches are the chips. There is still a lot of fine dust that gets into the air which requires me to wear a mask.

I have determined that an ambient air cleaner is a must. I too have my shop in a two car garage and a layer of dust everywhere.

Not to hijack this thread but does anyone have any recomendations to which one to get? Also, my hot water heater is in the garage. Will this create a problem with using the ambient air cleaner or not really because I am not pulling the air out of the shop?

[Mike Schueler]

Dave, I appreciate your reply and answers my question the most clearly.

I think what I am going to do is get one of those fancy cyclone types, skip the ambient cleaner, and vent the cyclone outside my shop. I live "out in the sticks" and no one around here could care less if there's a pile of sawdust outside. I have no carbon monoxide emitting stuff in my house (electric heat, no propane, etc) so I'm not worried about pulling CO anywhere it's not supposed to be.

I am looking at the 3M cartridge types and will buy it once I figure out what cartridges etc I need.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, I understand where you are coming from on the planes...

When you set up to vent outside, make sure you have a controlled way for the make up air to get back in. If you don't, you will have all sorts of goofy drafts and air leaks in the structure. I found this out because I cheaped out on a makeup air system on a restaurant hood in a previous life. Easy enough to deal with, but the ramifications of not can be pretty entertaining.

[Vivian Ecker]

Hi Sonny,

Thanks very much for your informative reply. I think you have started a cascade of dust control research. Bill Pentz's website is amazing. I have a lot to learn.

Thanks again and best wishes,
Vivian

[Bob Abbott]

Mike,
I'm brand new to this site but felt I could add something here. You were considering not using the air cleaner, but did you consider making your own? You can get furnace blowers for free from scrap yards at HVAC companies. Building a box with filters around it takes a day. Cost is close to $0. I have found that this makes a big difference. In addition I made Pentz's cyclone and it works great. I also read something on this site about using fans to blow the dust out the door of the garage. I was considering remounting my cleaner (and maybe making a second one) so it will accomplish this. Good luck
Bob Abbott

[michael osadchuk]

Dave, I appreciate your reply and answers my question the most clearly.

I think what I am going to do is get one of those fancy cyclone types, skip the ambient cleaner, and vent the cyclone outside my shop. I live "out in the sticks" and no one around here could care less if there's a pile of sawdust outside. I have no carbon monoxide emitting stuff in my house (electric heat, no propane, etc) so I'm not worried about pulling CO anywhere it's not supposed to be.

I am looking at the 3M cartridge types and will buy it once I figure out what cartridges etc I need.


I support your solution as stated above, i.e., emphasizing good dust collection and venting the small stuff outside (the latter in your situation has no hazards or big air reheating costs)

some further points

- key is building in good dust collection pick up on all your machinery, incl. tablesaw, jointer, planer, mitre saw....it is not just or even primarily sanding operations that put the 5 micron and under particles in the air but also these other operations - just because we see a lot of big chips coming off table saw or jointer, we are lulled into believing they are not also throwing up the small particles ...dig up the threads on this site regarding the experience of other woodworkers who, late last winter, did a group purchase the "dylos monitor", a counter of airborne particulate pollution, for some quasi-scientific findings that go further than 'commonsense' or immediate discomfort)

- you will be venting only the small dust particles outside and therefore there will be no pile of "sawdust" on the ground outside the workshop (again, dig up the relatively few posts on this site from people who have done this and posted pix)

- a cyclone is the ultimate but a sufficiently powerful one stage dust collector that incorporates a home built phil thien separator in the metal collar between the lower dustbin and what would be the upper filter would come close to the efficiency of a cyclone...my hunch here (smiley); don't forget, by eliminating the top filter/bag, you are reducing back pressure and gaining efficiency/power

- I have one ambient air cleaner and bought (but haven't yet installed) a second unit to create a more effective air cirulation pattern to "speed up" the capture the floating stuff that somehow escape dust collection pickup points ; I'm undecided how effective they really are because my tests with the dyclos monitor shows that even the very light stuff settles in a still environment in several hours, not days, without the ambient cleaner running and doesn't appear to get stirred back into the air with normal walking around the shop .... some people have saved money by recycling a squirrel cage furnace blower in homemade enclosures made of light ply and high quality furnace filters, to make ambient cleaners (again, lots of threads/pix of the homemade solution)

- I very much dislike the constrictive feeling of a air mask that fits directly on my mouth and nose so I have rarely used them over the years; recently I bought a powered respirator (that blows filtered air over one's face within a face shield/helmet), the less expensive Triton unit for a couple of hundred Canadian, and its early use is promising in the most difficult or unusual air pollution situations

good luck

michael