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Dave Johnson29
11-14-2008, 2:32 PM
Hi all,

I am sure this has been broached before and my Searches produced lots of disconnected info so...

Can I assume that when someone posts on a unique item they have thought up, that is OK for others to copy the concept?

What prompts this is the recent thread on the "Sharing - Newborn tile"

My SO saw it and liked the idea and now wants two made for recent additions. I have no doubt they will be shown around and the SO is making noises about taking orders. :eek:

I doubt the OP, James & Zelma would ever be likely to catch me flogging the stolen (copied) concept, but I have to live with me all the time and I know I would be stealing (copying) the idea. Jackie McGowan also has some ideas the SO liked and thus adding to my concern.

So what's the rules here?

Kerry Smith II
11-14-2008, 2:37 PM
If they post the plans/files they are sharing the idea so that others may use it as well. imo.

Kim Vellore
11-14-2008, 2:41 PM
Legally anything posted on public forums is public knowledge and free to be used by anyone for profit. You cant claim it as your idea or patent or copyright it, the person posting the info goes in the hall of fame as the originator or inventor of that idea. If the person posting requests that the info not to be used for profit than it is just the honor system.

Kim

Doug Griffith
11-14-2008, 2:45 PM
I also think it depends on how the "stolen" idea is marketed. If sold locally, no big deal. If a website is built aiming at a global market around the "stolen" idea and it encroaches on the originators market and eats into their sales, then it's a little different story. Ethically, they should be asked permission, get credit, and possibly receive royalties.

In any case, I would only use their idea and not their drawings or any other drawing I did not produce myself.

Cheers,
Doug

Frank Corker
11-14-2008, 2:56 PM
Everything that I have posted here has always been intended for others to share the wealth. Why post it otherwise?

Darren Null
11-14-2008, 3:26 PM
If it's a trade secret, you don't post it on the intertubes. Assuming that the poster is the creator of the work, then it's posted specifically for our mutual benefit and use, particularly if it comes with a .cdr file.

In short, fill yer boots.

Of course, good manners would necessitate that you don't achieve global domination with the product. Or claim copyright.
And payback is good- either by improving the design and posting any corrections/improvements/variations you may think of. Or by posting something of your own. Or knocking something up in response to a cry for help.

Bruce Volden
11-14-2008, 3:28 PM
Everything that I have posted here has always been intended for others to share the wealth. Why post it otherwise?

Thanks Frank!! Those that know me know I haven't had an original thought nor idea in years!! :D :D

Bruce

Dave Johnson29
11-14-2008, 4:33 PM
Thanks for the responses,

I really do not care about the legal ramifications it is more the moral and ethical connotations that I was concerned about. I realize anything that is posted here is fair game under the auspices of the Public Domain, but I see this site as a great resource and do not want to tread on other's toes.

Often a CDR file does not accompany the posting, just a photo and short description. I had figured that if a CDR file is supplied then it is Carte Blanche, so grab it and run.

I am happy with anything I post being borrowed, used-as-is, or changed and sold at will, otherwise I would not post it. However it is a bit trite to say that as most of the individuals here seem to be selling relatively locally so I do not see Local domination or Global domination of *my idea* as an issue. :)

OK, resume your normal program. :cool:

Jackie McGowan
11-14-2008, 5:13 PM
Hi Dave,

I have no problem with anyone doing the same items as I posted here :)
I've gotten alot of ideas and help from this forum myself :)

Have fun!

Rodne Gold
11-15-2008, 5:16 AM
Everything I have posted is also free to use , modify , do what you want with it , with or without CDR attachment. I post to share and I'm pretty sure everyone else does.

Joe Pelonio
11-15-2008, 12:09 PM
Especially as the holidays approach when people share CDR files for gift items and ornaments, the intent is for others to make them too. While there may be some competitors within the membership, in the same geographic area or selling internationally online, I'm sure people would not post something that is so unique and profitable as to be their "bread and butter" where competition could put them out of business.

Now if someone posts a regular production job they do and another member does some investigation to find out who the customer is and offers the same product at a lower price to steal the customer, that's another matter. Not that I think anyone on the Creek would do that!

Gary and Jessica Houghton
11-15-2008, 3:23 PM
[quote=Dave Johnson29;968145]
I really do not care about the legal ramifications it is more the moral and ethical connotations that I was concerned about. I realize anything that is posted here is fair game under the auspices of the Public Domain, but I see this site as a great resource and do not want to tread on other's toes.

Dave,

The moral and ethical concerns you should have is if you try and claim someone elses design as yours. If you look at a design, copy it, then tweak to make your own, there should be no concerns. If you copy it and stop there, then you might have some moral concerns. People emulate other people. That's who we are as humans. Whether it's hairstyles, clothing, or personalities, people will emulate others. It doesn't stop there though, it carries on through art, design, movies, t.v. shows, and products for sale. The trick is to try and create something unlike anything else. It will eventually be copied and sold for cheaper, but that's when you move on to the next new creation. I believe that is where you become the most successful.

Jeffrey Levine
11-18-2008, 11:11 PM
It is probably a reasonable assumption that most people posting here are doing it with the intention of allowing others to use it. The amount of effort people go to on this site to share all kinds of things is truly awesome and I am very thankful for how much I have learned (I just became a contributor). Thought it might be helpful, however, to clarify a legal issue: not everything posted here is necessarily “public domain.” Sharing protected intellectual property (IP) on a forum like this, or any other public disclosure for that matter, does not necessarily mean any potential IP rights have been surrendered. Owners of IP share information all the time without any intention of allowing others to exploit it for commercial purposes. For example if I patented a new type of solar panel and share the details of how it works on a message board, that does not mean I intend to let anybody who wants to manufacture and sell it. If I post original music on myspace, that does not mean anybody can take my music and sell it on a cd or use it for a movie soundtrack, etc. I could give many, many more examples. Not trying to create any ruckus with this posting, just thought it might be important for people to realize you can’t always assume you have the legal right to reproduce anything you want just because somebody posted it on the internet.

Belinda Williamson
11-19-2008, 8:27 AM
Dave,

Not trying to speak for James and Zelma here, but they seem to be such kind and giving people that I think they will be honored to know that you are using their design. I don't have much to contribute but I am always grateful for the ideas posted here. Thanks to everyone for sharing!

Dave Johnson29
11-19-2008, 9:43 AM
to clarify a legal issue: not everything posted here is necessarily “public domain.” Sharing protected intellectual property (IP) on a forum like this, or any other public disclosure for that matter, does not necessarily mean any potential IP rights have been surrendered.


Hi Jeffrey,
Well yes and no, the first item you cited would be covered by the Patent or Patent Application and the second by Music Copyright so you are correct on those. However a design for a tile or a Christmas ornament, offered up for viewing on a newsgroup, would be very difficult to successfully litigate.

I too do not want to drag this out, but in this instance I think you are taking too wide a brush on Intellectual Property. One of my neighbors is retired State's Attorney General and I ran this by her and the above paraphrased outline is hers and not mine.

Suffice to say, and as I now understand the group philosophy better, the generally accepted approach by the kind people on this group is to offer items up for copying unless otherwise stated.

Joe Pelonio
11-19-2008, 11:02 AM
If anyone posts an example of their work and does not want it to be copied in any form, then they should state so in their post. Regardless of the legal aspects, I would hope that other members would respect that. There are ways to show examples of work without giving away too much, such as a jpg that has any company identifiers left out to prevent stealing of customers. I would think that posting an actual Corel file is an open invitation to copy it
except when it's posted to ask for help with a technical problem running it.
Those should be considered off-limits for copying unless permission is given by the poster.

I have posted examples of work here that I specified as patented by my customer just to avoid any confusion.

Jeffrey Levine
11-19-2008, 12:44 PM
Joe, those seem like reasonable guidelines (regardless of the law, as you state). But since some legal issues were raised above (whether something could be commercially exploited because it was posted on a public forum) I thought it would be helpful to clarify. If there are valid IP rights associated with something, they are not necessarily lost by posting. Just as with patented inventions and copyrighted music, IP rights can absolutely 100% for sure be established in the types of original graphic designs/artwork that people here create on a daily basis (and might choose to post). It is not painting with a broad brush to suggest copyrights can be established for these types of works, or that they are necessarily lost by posting. I apologize if it was not clear in my previous posting that I was addressing the broader legal issues. I do agree that based on the manner in which many specific posts have been made here, it could be unreasonable for the person posting to assert infringement if others used it. Allowing use might be the motivation for posting. However, as Joe put very well, commercial use is not intended for all postings.

Disclaimer: the above is intended as general legal information, not legal advice. Please note my use of “not necessarily” and “might” etc. – there are exceptions to the above concepts. For example, prior to patenting, a public disclosure of an invention can negatively impact future patent rights. If specific legal advice is needed for IP, consult a qualified attorney with real expertise.

James & Zelma Litzmann
11-23-2008, 3:23 PM
Thanks for the responses,

I really do not care about the legal ramifications it is more the moral and ethical connotations that I was concerned about. I realize anything that is posted here is fair game under the auspices of the Public Domain, but I see this site as a great resource and do not want to tread on other's toes.

:cool:

Dave let me put your mind at ease. You guys (and ladies) have always been so good to us, you have lifted us up when we were ready to quit, when we felt like we were fighting city so to speak. You have helped us find things that we did not think were possible. You did all this without making us feel like outsiders or like we were not the brightest bulb in the pack. I have been promising the old timers here (and I don't mean age wise either) that someday I'd be able to give something back. When I posted it I prayed that maybe someone could use it and that you all would not think that it was a terrible design and wonder why I posted it. This is my itty bitty contribution to all of you. As previously stated I am indeed honored that you would want to use it. Use it with our blessings.

Brent Vander Weil
11-23-2008, 4:11 PM
I agree with the the general attitude that if it is here it is shared... I personally would draw the line at taking any idea and going global with it on the web... that should be the inventors little cup of gravy that they enjoy and reap some reward from... as for me and my house we will serve an awesome bowl of chili and no amount of cyber-tourture will make me post the secret ingredients here on the web!!!! <Insert evil laugh here>

Seriously, James & Zelma have helped me out too.. and I am glad to see the positive energy of this site flows to others too... I have been gone for awhile getting some personal issues straightened out and now am back full force to try to make this laser thing turn some kind of profit :-)

I am glad for the friends I have made and their generosity... and I will do my best not only to talk the talk, but also walk the walk...

Take care all... and if I don't get back soon.. Happy Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year... gee I hope I get here between those... LOL

Brent