Shaper guide rail project

[James Biddle]

I'm looking to make/have made/buy a guide rail for my shaper to use one those occaisions where I want to use the shaper (and power feeder) for dimensioning to final width (think chess board strips).

I went out and measured the shaper top in hopes of ordering some extruded aluminum parts from 8020.net. I had completely forgotton about the tapped holes in the top of the slider though.
http://home.comcast.net/~jbiddle/pics/shaper%20top.jpg
Now I'm thinking it may be better to mount a guide rail to the slider when I need to use it. The slider has a pin that locks it into position and there's no movement that I can see. Should I worry about attaching the guide rail to the slider? I was think of having it made from 1/2" x 3" steel, right metal? I would probably want the face to be ground straight after assembly. Would it stay straight? How would I find a source to have something like this made up?
http://home.comcast.net/~jbiddle/pics/shaper%20top%20guide.jpg

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi James, when I use my shaper for dimensioning to width, I use a home made fence.

A simple piece of straight hardwood would be fine, in your case you could use the tapped holes to accept knobs, and use a couple of 3 inch C clamps as backup.

Regards, Rod.

[Jay Brewer]

Hi James, I have built two different dimensioning fences for 2 shapers I have. The first was a Incra positioning fence with a Festool Guide rail as the fence. the second one and the one I use solely for the rail cut on my doors is made of t-track with flip stops set at the common measurements I use. This wouldnt work because of your sliding table.

The only thing I see is make sure you will have enough room between your attachment point and the cutter to be able to run the widths that you want. Next would be a easy way to "index" the fence so you can set the dimension without alot of fuss and test cuts.

I dont know if my setups will help you, but I will post some pics this evening.

[Brad Shipton]

You will find many simply clamp a board down for the outboard fence. If you find you are final sizing on the shaper a lot or edge easing I have found the Aigner style thickness stop is very quick to setup. I like it because it has only one bolt to adjust and since the main arm is square it is a great reference.The Aigner versioin is pricey, so I made a wood version. This one was actually a mock-up that was to be built in aluminum, but it turned out better than planned so I stuck with it.

Just another idea.

Brad

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Shop/DSC01506-sm.jpg

[Karl Brogger]

Brad- Thats interesting. I set up a fence away from the cutter when running my sticks for rail and stile. Often times I do multiple sizes though out a job. Doors are typically one size, panelled ends usually have 3 different sizes, drawer fronts etc. I was trying to come up with something easy to adjust, durable, and remain acurrate. Punch that out of aluminum, add some UMHW for the material to ride against/on and that looks like a winner. Thanks for posting that.

[Brad Shipton]

Karl, Aigner does make this but $1400 was a bit much for a hobbiest. There's is pretty darn nice though since it comes with a caliper mounted to the Tee and a couple other options for varying stock thicknesses. You should take a look at their model on the Martin website.

One thing I found with this version is the wings that hold the stock against the outboard are too large. This means the cutter hangs outside the hood and the DC cannot grab all the chips. I end up with debris on the table that must be cleared off to keep accurate cuts. The aigner version has a thin plastic setup to hold the stock against the outboard, but it is built to mount to their integral fence.

Brad

[Karl Brogger]

One thing that helps with sawdust evading the dust collector is to have pretty much just the cutter hanging out of the fence. From your pic there is alot of open space above it. I've made fences that were pretty much zero tollerance and it still isn't perfect though.

For $1400 I think I could have a machinest make something for much less. A threaded rod, and a dial would be sweet for making repeatable cuts.

[David DeCristoforo]

I just bolt a piece of MDF down to the table. It's one of the few things the stuff is good for. I mill some slots in the MDF so I can slide it a bit to get the spacing between the edge and the cutter right and I sand and wax the edge. Anyone wanna guess how many of these I can make for 1,400 bucks?

[J.R. Rutter]

Ditto on the MDF and bolts. (C-clamps work, too, for quick setups.) I keep a little box of spacer blocks at the shaper to position the outboard fence repeatably. Each pair has the cutter name and finished width on it. I never move the fence on this particular shaper. We routinely get within a few thousandths on rail/stile width with this setup.

[Karl Brogger]

I just bolt a piece of MDF down to the table. It's one of the few things the stuff is good for. I mill some slots in the MDF so I can slide it a bit to get the spacing between the edge and the cutter right and I sand and wax the edge. Anyone wanna guess how many of these I can make for 1,400 bucks?


I do the same thing, but with a piece of 1/2" baltic birch, no bolts either, I use Jorgensons. I just like making things idiot proof, paying attention at work is just wrong.:D

[Peter Quinn]

I use a piece of QSWO jointed straight, clamped to the table. Came from the scrap pile at work. Wanna guess how many of those I could make for $1400? I do like the look of the Aigner stuff, they have really perfected the concept and eliminated the hunt and peck method in their designs. I guess when you have spent $25K on a Martin shaper, a few grand on a main fence and back fence don't seem like that much money?

But seriously, for another 10 minutes of work and a $5 dial indicator from Enco I could add that precision adjustment mechanism to my piece-o-oak fence and still be $1395 ahead.

[Jay Brewer]

I actually had the Aigner Thickness Stop and returned it. A nice unit but not nearly worth the price.

This is my current setup, a dedicated sticking shaper,not perfect but has worked quite well. Even with the feeder aimed toward the out board fence I would sometimes get snipe on short peices. So I built an all new fence and hood, ditching the factory fence. The new fence has small air cylinders that press the stock against the out board fence, I only run them at about 20 psi so they have some spring to them. I can now run very short peices ( 3-4") without it diving into the cutter. The small blower keeps the chips blown away from the fence.

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[Chip Lindley]

I also use a dedicated shaper for rails/stile profiles. The Weaver jig I use is wayyyy cheaper than that Aligner thingie, even at todays pricing. http://www.weaver-sales.com/pdf/cat-2008-aug-web.pdf#page=124
The sticker plate provides spring loading against the fence, away from the cutter for consistent width! Mine is almost 20 years old and a bit different than current, and was wayy cheaper too. The jig is secured to the shaper table by 3 flat-head allen head screws in countersunk holes, for repeatable mounting accuracy. Spacer shims can be added or subtracted to cut any width material desired with great accuracy. Check out my pic for a view of how it works on my PM 26, set up for 2 1/2" width.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=100765&d=1226435410
(it seems one cannot post the same pix twice here, system prevents it)

[Peter Quinn]

Call me crazy Chip, but in the pics of your Weaver set up it looks like my friend "piece-O-oak" is playing a role as the actual back fence bearing surface, no? Looks like a good set up there. Ever climb cut with it and does it work well if so?

[David DeCristoforo]

"...the actual back fence bearing surface..."

A couple of points here for anyone who has not used a setup like this before.

1) The shaper fence and shroud serve no real purpose in the function of the setup. In fact, the fence should not be in contact with the stock. In a setup like this, the fence and cutter shroud function only as a guard for the cutter and a place to connect the dust collector hose.

2) This operation should never be attempted "by hand". This is strictly a power feed operation.

3) Climb cutting a setup like this can be very dangerous. In a "typical" setup, the stock is prevented from moving into the cutter by the fence. In a setup like this, if climb cutting is attempted, the cutter can pull the stock away from the outboard fence and the "kickback" can be spectacular! One might argue that this is a good reason to use the fence in conjunction with the "outboard" fence. But you usually need clearance between the fence and stock to correctly cant the feeder toward the outboard fence. So there is always going to be (should be) some space between the stock and the fence.

[Chip Lindley]

I actually hand fed the stock into this setup with a push stick. Climb feeding is not possible because the infeed fence is spring loaded pushing the stock away from the cutter against the outboard spacer to cut an even width. I set the outfeed fence to a sliding fit to guide the finished piece in a straight line. It works well for me.

Now I have added a new Maggi Steff power feeder and the overhead hold down is not needed, but I have kept the outfeed fence as is, just for insurance sake. My setup gauges and guides the stock; the power feeder is just that--power feeding. With a sharp cutter set, I have had good results without resorting to experiment with climb cutting.

[Chip Lindley]

Actually Peter, it is Piece O Ash! haha! I used scrap I had on hand to make spacers of different widths. Free pallet lumber vs. a $40 sheet of Melamine!

[J.R. Rutter]

This is my current setup, a dedicated sticking shaper,not perfect but has worked quite well. Even with the feeder aimed toward the out board fence I would sometimes get snipe on short peices. So I built an all new fence and hood, ditching the factory fence. The new fence has small air cylinders that press the stock against the out board fence, I only run them at about 20 psi so they have some spring to them. I can now run very short peices ( 3-4") without it diving into the cutter. The small blower keeps the chips blown away from the fence.


Jay - That is a slick setup! I rigged a couple of pieces of thin steel banding from a lumber delivery as springs to put light pressure against the fence, but the air cylinders are a great idea. Nice job.

[James Biddle]

Thanks for all the great suggestions! I seem to be working my way down through the expense scale of the project. Here's my lower tech version.

Assumptions I'm making (maybe not good ones):
I've got 2 holes and one hold down knob I can take advantage of and just buy one more hold-down knob. I can later add clamps if it isn't substantial enough.
I can use either 1/2" or 5/8" plywood and the 6" of width would keep the plywood from flexing from the power feeder pressure. Using plywood under 3/4" would be better to keep the guide from interfering with the power feeder rollers.
The use of a power feeder replaces the need for the springs and/or air cylinder opposite the guide. Keeing the standard fence close, but backed off of the cut a little may help a little with the dust collection.
Since I'm dealing with essentially a point contact on the cutter and an adjustable power feeder, having a guide which maintains a perfect parallel to the fence at every position is not that important.
Adding a strip of UMHW to the face would help everything slide better.
Making extra width/cutter setup blocks will speed the setup process.
http://home.comcast.net/~jbiddle/pics/shaper%20top%20guide 2.jpg

[Peter Quinn]

Great post James, and that looks like a good setup evolving. Thanks everyone for posting your versions of this concept. Great food for thought. Also thank you David for your advise about not climb cutting with this set up. Having already tried it with a dead basic back fence I can say it should not be done the way I did it. The only fortunate thing about my results is that from the perspective of the user when feeding a climb cut the stock does not 'kick back', it in fact kicks forward toward the out feed, and makes one heck of a racket on its journey out of the shaper and across the room.:confused: PDAMHIK. Exit stage left, so to speak.

I wondered if the addition of pressure in the form of springs or pneumatic pistons pushing back against the back fence would change the results in any way. In my case I was shaping soft maple for a paint grade job and started having some tear out issues on rails with grain switch backs that could not be avoided through grain orientation. 10" boards had been split 3X, with the outside vertical grain being used for stiles and the center rip used for rails.

Any suggestions? A standard climb cut wasn't working well as the rail pieces were short and the fence would have been open too wide to pass the work safely. Silly me though 'oh, i got it, climb cut with a back fence.' Just dumb. Tractor feed maybe?

[J.R. Rutter]

The use of a power feeder replaces the need for the springs and/or air cylinder opposite the guide. Keeing the standard fence close, but backed off of the cut a little may help a little with the dust collection.

Yes, but if the parts get too short, then they tend to move around just enough to cause problems on some percentage, even with tractor feed. The spring pressure helps to avoid that. (And also helps as a chip guide with DC.)

Looking good!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ok, dumb question time from the shaper rookie. Why are you guys dimensioning like this? Why not on the saw? Does it save a step?

[Chip Lindley]

This post began by mentioning dimensioning, but in any shaper operation requiring a specific finished width, with a clean routed face, would best be done against the outboard aux fence instead of holding work against the fence/cutter. Less bobbles and wasted material. If work is held firmly against the aux fence, end snipe should be zero also.

The outboard fence does also dimension stock, being a fixed distance from the cutter. But even with a power feeder, guides and/or hold downs are advised to minimize stock movement in any direction but Forward.

[Jay Brewer]

Ok, dumb question time from the shaper rookie. Why are you guys dimensioning like this? Why not on the saw? Does it save a step?

I have found it works better to rip over sized and dimension with the shaper. It does save a step because your are producing a finished edge, think of it as jointing the piece and profiling at the same time.

The biggest benefit I have found with this setup is you get a better cut, with no tear out. I used to run the rail cut against the main fence and just mill the groove and profile and got nasty tear out on Maple. Now that I am removing the whole edge, no more tear out.

Another benefit is your running your pieces along a continuous fences and not 2 halves, safer and quicker to setup.

[J.R. Rutter]

To clarify - The ideal cutter for this method has a cutting edge the full height of the cut, no bearing surface. That way you can remove enough material to avoid tearout and take it to final width.