combo or not?

[Ron Lawrence]

Hi, my first kick at this cat:) A newbie from NW British Columbia....ok.... the question....

Better to buy a TWO quality machines...a thickness plane and a jointer.... as opposed to a combination jointer/planer? It seems to me that it is an unwinnable crapshoot of unrealistic expectation that the combo will be an enduring satisfaction because of a number of factors just waiting to overburden the dream of combo success....so is it better to accept the presence of TWO machines [especially if space is not a problem and the machines can be mobilized] and maximize the quality of performance and machine integrity?

Thanks for all forthcoming advice....Ron

[Rod Sheridan]

Holly Makerel Ron, I didn't need my reading glasses for your post!


Hi, I went through a similar decision process last year.

I previously owned a General 8 inch jointer, and a General 14 inch planer.

Living in a townhouse, space is always at a premium, so I began looking at jointer/planer combinations.

I looked at Laguna, MiniMax, Felder and Hammer, and chose a Hammer A3-31 (310mm/12 inch).

I couldn't be happier with the machine, and have found that the dreaded change over fears are nothing but fears.

I don't find the 30 seconds or so it takes to change from one function to another is onerous in any way.

It is fantastic to have a 12 inch jointer, with extension tables if I want to have help with long work pieces.

The quality of the machine is superb, no regrets going from General to Hammer.

The extra shop space is nice, in a year or so I will probably replace my General 650 and shaper with either a Hammer or Felder combination saw/shaper.

I had wanted A Felder or Hammer for a while, however the dealer was in Winnipeg. (I'm sure someone in Austria decided that Winnipeg was the center of Canada so that's where the dealer would be).

I now have a dealer in Toronto, which is where I live, so I was willing to buy, wish I had done it earlier.

Contact Felder and ask them for a DVD of the Hammer and Felder equipment, as well see if you can get a MiniMax DVD.

The capabilities, performance and accuracy of the European machines has to be seen to be appreciated.

Regards, Rod.

[Richard McComas]

I've had a Felder planer/jointer for 9-10 years now. Very happy with the set up (I'd buy again if I ever need again). It saves space and money over buying separate machines of equal quality.

In my opinion there are two must have accessories for these machines that make them truly a pleasure to use. My Felder has a highly accurate digital readout for the planer thickness and an electric lift kit that raised the planer and lowers the planer table. If you want to plane a board to 3/4 thick you just push the planer table button and watch the readout until it reads 3/4. Very accurate and repeatable.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ron, Rod is right on with the quality of the better combos. I have a shiney new Felder combo sitting ten foot from me now. I actually find it suprising that the Austrians can pack that much quality into one of these machines for the price that they get.

There is absoulutly no similarity between a Felder and a Griz, or even a Powermatic. Not meaning that in a condecending way, just look at each, and you'll see what I mean. Even the very basic features of the machines are different. Maybe comparable to a Buhgati (sp?) vs a Mustang.

As for the seperates vs combos, I went combo initially for space savings. I also took the 8.5' sliding table, so not sure if I actually saved space. If I had to do it over, I would make the quality the determining factor and would have still bought the exact same machine. I am still waiting on tooling so I don't have much actual use on my machine yet, but with the week of fiddling that I have been able to achieve, I can't see any issues with change over.

Rods right, it takes all of maybe 30 seconds to switch from jointer to planer. That being the most intensive changeover process, illustrates how simple the others are.

To sum it up, there is no comprimise in a high quality combo, and there is actually a bit of savings on the price over two dedicated machines of similar quality. Keep in mind, I'm thinking of the top tier European makers Felder, Hammer, MiniMax, and maybe others.

Welcome to the Creek by the way!

[Paul Kinneberg]

+1 on the Hammer A3-31 I have had mine for about 18 moths and have been more than satisfied and wouldn't even consider two machines unless space was of no concern.

[Jim Becker]

I'm a believer in J/P combos largely because it's the most economical way to get big jointer capacity without the extraordinary footprint of separates with the same capacity. I'm also a believer in wide jointers for any number of reasons. This obviously is for a one-person shop. Combos are less desirable when there are multiple workers involved.

My J/P combo is from MiniMax.

[Don Abele]

Ron, I'll start by seconding what Rod said, holy cow your type font is huge...I had to back away from the screen to read it :D

I went through this same decision process not too long ago. I was upgrading from a lunchbox planer and a 6" jointer. I was looking at Grizzly separates, a 15" planer and a 12" jointer. The cost was about the same as the Hammer A3 31 (12") combo but the real saving was in real estate and weight.

Just the 12" jointer alone weighs over 1000 pounds and add another 600 or so for the planer. For someone who moves a lot, that's A LOT of added weight. The size difference is also huge, especially for the jointer. With my 6" jointer I've NEVER had a need for aircraft carrier long beds so the shorter bed on the combo machine was not a detractor. Besides, I was able to get bed extensions if I ever really feel the need for the longer length.

As others have said, many say it's inconvient to switch from one mode to the other. It's quick, real quick and real easy. In the past and now with my combo unit, I don't find myself having to go from jointer to planer and back again. Many also say it's also an issue of repeatability. They can set their planer to 3/4 and leave it there until a project is done so any thicknessing that needs to be done later will match. I got the digital readout for my planer handwheel and it's dead-on accurate for repeatability, so again, another non-issue.

The last item is probably the most controversial - quality. I have Grizzly machines and love them - they are excellent machines. But the quality and construction of the Hammer is amazing and I'm sure will outlast me. When it comes to cast iron I believe you do get what you pay for and there is no comparison between my jointer beds and those found on the Grizzly units.

Be well,

Doc

[Brad Shipton]

I echo the comments of others regarding the quality of the euro machines. I too have an A3-31 and a B3 saw/shaper. I would ask if you are an organized woodworker? If not, there are times you might find the changeovers a bit of a nuisance. For me, space was the issue as well as cost. You will save a couple $$ with a combo and they certainly take up less space, but that comes with a small sacrifice in convienience. If you have space and the $$, I would go with separates.

Sure would be nice if you stick to normal size font for you next posts:)

Brad

[Ron Lawrence]

Thanks a ton,everybody..... sorry to those who are non-MR MAGOO in their eyeshot.... I will underwhelm the next time..... the Hammer A3-31 sounds impressive indeed..... out of curiosity my fellow Canucks what was the cost for such a Bughatti? I do not have an airplane-hangar-sized shop so I should not be too cavalier with my shop's size in thinking that quantity [2 machines] is the only valid scenario insuring quality..... the bells and whistles [digital readouts] sound like they are no frivolous bling. Is knife replacement/removal also a charm?

Thanks,Ron

[Hank Knight]

Ron,

I've never had the luxury of enough space to accommodate separate machines. I have always used a jointer planer combo. Mine is an Inca 570. It's a lightweight machine but it has a very loyal following. I've never used a Hamer, Felder or any of the other modern combos, so I don't have any basis for comparing my Inca to them. It's my belief, however, that the new combos are solid and convenient to operate, as all who have replied have said.

Having said that, if I were given the option of choosing between a combo and separate machines - if space were not an issue - I'd choose separate machines every time. Even though it takes me only a minute or so to convert my Inca from one configuration to another, it's still a hassle. I lose settings every time I change over. My machine is a manual adjust - not automatically repeatable - which adds to the hassle. Invariably, when I need to use the jointer, my machine is set up in planer mode and vice versa. This may be a case of the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, but I dream of having space enough for separate machines. I love my Inca, given my limited space circumstances, but I'd trade it in a heartbeat for a two machine setup and room.

One point I should make here: My Inca is a 10 1/2" machine. An 8" jonter seems to be about the standard for most shops, particularly nonprofessional ones. If there's one thing I'd hate to give up with my little Inca it's the jointer capacity. If you go with separate machines, get a BIG jointer.

My $.02

Hank

[Curt Harms]

Like Rod, I live in a townhouse with a basement shop. Space is an issue. i had a 6" jointer and was looking for wider. Decided why go from 6" to 8"? And 12" jointers are neither cheap nor light. Livin' on the po' side 'o town;) I went with the Jet JJP12. It does everything I need it to do and accurately. I also drive a Ford Ranger. I'm sure the Euro machines have tighter tolerances and probably better castings. I also suspect Mercedes has higher quality machines than my Ford pick 'em up truck. However, both machines accomplish what I need for them to accomplish. To each his or her own If I had the space, my decision re separates vs. combo would have required much more thought. Changeover isn't much of an issue but it is something to think about. The other consideration is with a combo, if 1 part fails it may disable all the functions, not just the one.

HTH

Curt

[Peter Quadarella]

I thought long and hard about the Jet 12" combo. In the end I didn't want to spend the money so bought a lunchbox planer, and then later on I did end up getting a jointer also. I always figured it would be nice to have the 2 machines anyway so I didn't have to switch over all the time.

Now that I've had them for a little bit, I don't think it would have been that big of a deal, and I would have liked the extra width. If I were doing it over, I think I would probably do the combo.

[Don Abele]

Ron, I agree with what Hank said - IF I had the room and didn't move every two-three years I would much prefer seperates. But in my situation the combo is the best alternative. I looked seriously at the Jet and Grizzly combo units and would consider them to be equally matched to one another (each has it's better points). The only reason I went with the Hammer (and have been blown away with it's quality) is I got an excellent deal on a show model that put it very close to the cost of the Jet. In my hobbyists shop, it's all Jet equipment and I've never complained about it not living up to my use.

As for knife changes on the Hammer, it takes about 3 minutes to change them all. It's one of the fastest and easiest tools to change the blade on (my Milwaukee jigsaw with quick release wins that one).

Be well,

Doc

[Barry Vabeach]

Ron, I got the Jet combo because of space and price. While it is pretty good, if I had the space I would have considered 2 separate machines, but that was not an option. I don't mind changing from one mode to the other ( I adapted the Jet so I can use a cordless drill to move the planer table up and down ) but there are a few down sides to the Jet combo, IMHO. First, the planer table is 21 inches long which is way too short - when I plane short pieces ( say 24 inches or less ) the pieces often fall off the outfeed because it is so short. With the table extension on my old planer, I could run 6 or 8 short pieces through and they would just sit on the extension. ( The Grizzly is not much better at 24 inches long) I am thinking of making a table extension on the outfeed to solve that. I wanted to extend the infeed to get the pieces in order before I feed them through, but I haven't figured out the dimensions and configuration of an infeed table that won't conflict with the dust collection outlet ( in the jointing mode) and the controls for the planing. Second, the dust collection isn't as good as a stand alone, because the dust hood has to shift from one side to the other. It still is a great machine, and the price to value ratio is very good. Where a combo should shine is if you use a shelix head, because then you should save some significant money. For example, the 12 inch Grizzly jointer with a spiral head is $2,000 and for $200 more you get a 12 inch jointer planer with spiral head, which is pretty unbelievable- though there probably are some differences in the jointer specs.

[Brad Shipton]

Ron, by the time mine was in my shop I think it was around $5k. There is an inspection fee to get the CSA cert ($400 if I recall correctly), and it was around $400 to ship from Winnipeg to Northern BC. The current catlog lists the A3-31 at $3,300. You will probably have good luck finding an A3 in stock, but if you end up ordering one I dont think you will see it until the new year since the next container is not due until January. Unless things have changed recently, Winnipeg warehouses all of the Western Canada stock.

By digital, I assume you just meant the dial gauge and not the Hammer's bigger brothers? The AD741 with electronic drives is pretty popular with the Felder Online Group (FOG), but that will run over $10k.

I sure would not discount taking a look at the SCMI machines either. Euro-tech services has a branch in Van and Calgary.

Brad

[glenn bradley]

Space or the cost of a really wide jointer would be the deciding factor for me. The really wide jointer part would just be a bonus for me if I had to go combo. I say this because if I had to have that jointer capacity, I would probably be doing something that would help pay for a large seperate. If I were in a cramped space a combo would certainly give me way more service than a couple smaller seperates.

If I could fit the seperates, I would as it would relieve me of planning far enough ahead to not be switching back and forth all the time :) The switching back and forth is pretty quick; what gets avoided during the demos is how long it take to get from "switched over" to "ready to feed stock". A motorized table height feature would surely be a blessing. So in a nutshell, my .02 (and worth half of that) is; large seperates if possible, combo if not.

[Jim Becker]

Glenn, "switched over and ready to feed stock" on my MM combo is about a minute and a half tops...and that's going slow. Really...I'm not exaggerating.

[Chris Padilla]

Space is the key for me; I have a 16" J/P from Minimax and it truly is an aircraft carrier but having one footprint for the jointer and planer is a big plus in a small space. If I had the space, I would make them separate. Perhaps one day I'll have such space but I doubt I would sell my combo to get separates.

Changing between one and the other is fast and can take under a minute. The key is for the planer to have a good/ACCURATE indicator of the thickness. Some folks have automatic bed raisers and digital readout and others have a crank wheel and an "analog" readout. Keep in mind the bed of the planer adjusts and not the cutters. The cutters never change height...the beds adjust around them.

I dropped high coin on 16" width but I figured it ought to outlast me and I'd never want for anything larger (or smaller) and so far, so good.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thanks a ton,everybody..... sorry to those who are non-MR MAGOO in their eyeshot.... I will underwhelm the next time..... the Hammer A3-31 sounds impressive indeed..... out of curiosity my fellow Canucks what was the cost for such a Bughatti? I do not have an airplane-hangar-sized shop so I should not be too cavalier with my shop's size in thinking that quantity [2 machines] is the only valid scenario insuring quality..... the bells and whistles [digital readouts] sound like they are no frivolous bling. Is knife replacement/removal also a charm?

Thanks,Ron

Ron, Knife change is a breeze. Tersa looks sweet, but I went with 16" of Felder system because it was in stock. Ought to take about 5 min, maybe?

Bells and whistles are good too. No cranking at all on my CF 741 Pro, just let that motor do the work for you. I just timed a full change from jointer to planer, 23 seconds to ready on 3/4". Shish, it'll take twice that to clear the clutter off the tables of your average stand alone jointer.

Not a Canuck, so I don't know what your price will be, but south of the border they don't give them away. I will offer this bit of advice, buy your wife a nice car first, or she will have plenty of ammo for guilt trips.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks a ton,everybody..... sorry to those who are non-MR MAGOO in their eyeshot.... I will underwhelm the next time..... the Hammer A3-31 sounds impressive indeed..... out of curiosity my fellow Canucks what was the cost for such a Bughatti? I do not have an airplane-hangar-sized shop so I should not be too cavalier with my shop's size in thinking that quantity [2 machines] is the only valid scenario insuring quality..... the bells and whistles [digital readouts] sound like they are no frivolous bling. Is knife replacement/removal also a charm?

Ron, knife change is maybe 2 minutes per knife, loosen the allen screws, remove the holder and knife, flip the knife over (they go onto locating pins), put the holder and knife back in the cutterhead and tighten the screws.

The digital height gauge is a must, and if I were to buy a Felder, I'd go with the planer table drive motor option.

I think I paid $4,000 for mine, CSA mdifications and inspection included.

Your closest dealer would be Felder machinery Imports in Calgary.

regards, Rod.

P.S. Noticed you're in Beautiful BC, I grew up in Vernon.

[Curt Harms]

I will offer this bit of advice, buy your wife a nice car first, or she will have plenty of ammo for guilt trips.
It only cost me a big screen TV:)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

It only cost me a big screen TV:)

You got off "easy" Curt! Maybe I should have tried that first....

[Bernie Wynia]

I've been investigating Jointer/Planer combination machines for a while now. From everything I can see, the only options for us in Canada are the Laguna, Hammer/Felder and Minimax machines.
I contacted Jet, and they don't seem to distrubute their woodworking machinery in Canada (Jet Canada is apparently a seperate company which only sells metalworking machinery).
It seems Grizzly does will not ship to Canada.
I've tried various online sites, and I haven't been able to find one one that will ship these machines to Canada. If anyone knows a way to get either the Grizzly or the Jet shipped to Canada, I'd very interested in it. I've heard lots of good things about both.
Unfortunately, the Laguna does not work for me because of my shop layout and the fact that you need to be able to access both sides of the machine as you switch between Jointing and Planing.
The machine I covet is the Hammer, but it's a lot of money.

[Brad Shipton]

Bernie, if you want a grizzly you will need to go get one. The Busy Bee owner and Grizzly owner are brothers thats why Grizzly will not ship to Canada. You might want to join the Canadian site as there are quite a few members making the trek to get one and I bet you can swing some sort of deal with one of them if its too far for you.

Ron:
If you want to find who your Felder rep is, set up an online account on their site. I bet you get a call in a day from the fellow in the Vancouver area. I do everytime I snoop at prices. Truth be told thats how they sucked me in. I logged on just to peek thinking they were out of my $$ range. Last order of mine came from Winnipeg, but they were pretty quick to ask what part of BC I was in before shipping.

Brad

[Ron Lawrence]

This is a very good selection of anecdotal experience! Sure beats being left exclusively to the seductive sirens of manufacture hype.....so thanks again everybody.

I am more and more leaning to separate machines....I have a 22foot square shop....so with mobile machines there should be no serious squeeze-play....I guess I am dubious about long-term combo wear and tear...all the extra moves and their demands...both on machine and man.

Here in BC.... for some reason we are just out of the manufacturers' 'comfort zone' when it comes to them all having showrooms and warehouses in the Vancouver area.... let alone in the northern hinterland or the islands..... so maybe a fellow has to drop down to Washington and check out GRIZZLY.... I will get the jointer first..... and I think the advice to step up from 8 inch to 10 or 12 is good....

Which brings me to the assessment of their products.... seems some here are not 'afraid' of the 'big inferior non-Euro' machines made in the US/Canada.... did not Fine Woodworking rate GRIZZLY's jointer very high? And while we are on the subject of 'reviews'.... what is the 'conventional wisdom' here regarding FW's reviews? Are they to be respected and heeded? One tends to grant FW 'exalted status'..... but it is is easy to be hyped into mesmerized obeisance in so many areas..... sorry, for the wee philosophical editorial...thanks,Ron

[Ron Lawrence]

Thanks,Brad..... I bought a few tools from Busy Bee many moons ago....and have outgrown them...... does it not irk one that we have to cross the 49th to get some satisfaction..... and especially if the frustration is because of sibling rivalry! So you are located up in the BC 'sour gas' patch..... wannabe bomberscape of violence..... may your sniffer be in fine survival mode!

Ron

[Brad Shipton]

Ron, I am not a fan of Busy Bee either. A busy bee salesman joined the canadian site and introduced himself. It was an interesting discussion. Many many canadians would like easier access to grizzly.

Yes, I live in the hometown of some loons trying to blow up gas lines. I sure wish they would stop. Makes us look like such hillbillies.

Brad

[Ron Lawrence]

Ah, well,Brad..... we get to live away from the throngs and hordes,eh....mind you, we also get to harbour a few loons in the bucolic barrel..... Chris from Nanaimo says he sells General..... so maybe one can stay north of 49 ...especially if one's dollar is low and there be excise tax..... who knows for sure what 'free' trade means and includes ....... Ron

[Josh Rudolph]

Ron,

I apologize if I am repeating other's advice, but wanted to post quick before I give the little one a bath.

I went through the same decision process back in March. I decided on the separates route.

Space was not an issue. The enticement was the 2-for-1 deal. A 12" jointer and planer with a spiral head was a really exciting possibility.

I felt that the combo machines had too many trade-offs compared to separates. Changeover (it is a guarantee I will screw up something and have to mill a new piece in the middle of a project), short bed on jointer, less overall weight...

I went with a 20" planer and built a planer sled. I am going to use my 6" jointer until I can save up for a big iron jointer.

Had space been an issue, without hesitation I would have went the combo route. But I have a nice sized shop and don't plan on moving any time soon.

So...if space is an issue...go the combo route (then you get the decision of which brand...good luck :confused:)

If you have the room...go the separates route. Buy a planer first and make a planer sled. They are a little cumbersome, but work well. Get the jointer you want later down the road.

Good luck with your decision.

Josh

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have the Felder Hammer 12" JP and I like it a lot. No snipe no problems reliable and repeatable.
I can't say how the knock offs will perform as I haven't been in a room with any of them.

[Doug Shepard]

Every time this topic comes up I take another look at the specs again and keep coming away scratching my head. I'd love to increase my jointer capabaility from 6" to 12" and if I could reduce the overall machine space requirements from my PM54 and benchtop planer, that would be a big plus. The argument on going with a combo vs separates is always the smaller size issue. Granted, if you compare a 12" jointer and a 12" stationary planer, this might come out to a net space reduction. But with benchtop planers giving a 12" capability, this seems to me to be more a size comparison between a 12" jointer and a 12" combo.
But here's the space specs on all the models I can find:

Grizzly G0634
Overall length: 60-1/4"
Overall width: 45-1/4" -------Why on earth is this almost 4 feet???

Jet JJP-12
Length 55 inch
Width 34 inch -------------Better but still almost 3 feet

MM FS30
Footprint 64x36

Hammer A3 31
Footprint 61x27 ------------- Narrowest so far that I've found

Rojek
Doesn't have dimensions listed but appears to be about the same size as the Jet or MM.

In some cases these combos appear to be wider than dedicated 12" jointers. Now if I'm going to shop by size, at least the best fit is one of the best units (A3 31) but sheesh, what gives? Why are these darn things so wide???
3x to 4x the size of the planer/jointer beds ???
Skuze my ramblings.

[Don Abele]

Doug, my Rigid lunchbox planer is about 20" wide. Now take it and rest 300 pounds of steel on top of it. The base on these machines are quite beefy to support all that weight. So they start out at a normal 20" width and then spread out to handle the weight.

Even with the need for a heavier base, the significant increase in size comes from the jointer fence itself. On my Hammer, it's mounted on a rail attached to the infeed side of the jointer table. The rail is no wider than the overall machine and doesn't contribute to increasing the overall width. However, on the Grizzly, the fence is mounted on a tube that is mounted in the center of the machine and pokes straight back. This is the same design the MiniMax uses (but smaller). That mounting tube takes up a lot of real estate behind the machine. IIRC, Jim Becker actually cut a hole in the wall to accomodate the tube. The fence system on the Jet is on a traditional sliding ways system (like all their other jointers) but it still sticks behind the machine a good distance (again, just like on a regular jointer).

Not mentioned in the specs is that you have to remember that you need extra clearance behind them when you tilt the tables up as well. Mine is in the middle of the shop, so it isn't an issue. But I think for the Hammer you need an additional 6 or 8 inches. I think for the Jet and Grizzly this is a non-issue because the fence mounting system already gives you the extra clearance.

If you were to get a 12" jointer alone, your space savings with a combo is still significant - this is mainly due to the shortened bed lengths. The other significant savings (and one that was real important for someone like me that moves a lot) is weight. The Grizzly 12" jointer alone is over 1000 pounds.

As I've said before...if I didn't move every two to three years and had the space, I would have separates - a 12" jointer and a cabinet-style 15-20" planer. Even with that said, I love my Hammer - it's an awesome machine, as are the Grizzly and Jet units (which I had a chance to test "drive").

Be well,

Doc

[Jim Becker]

Doug, the width dimensions may include the space required for whatever type of fence arrangement is included. My MiniMax FS350 requires somewhat of a wide footprint because the fence rides on a center-mounted round shaft that extends well behind the tool when the fence is retracted toward the back. I actually have a round hole cut in the wall to give me an extra 2" of shop space...the post enters the wall when I have the fence all the way back!

[Barry Vabeach]

Doug, I am not sure I followed your point on the lunchbox jointer - are you saying that it doesn't take up any space? While that is true if you keep it stored away when not in use, which is what I did before I got a combo, you would agree it takes up space when in use, plus you have to allow space to feed lumber in, and come out. BTW, if you put your lunchbox unit away when you are not using it, you just got past the main drawback of the combo - since a changeover on a combo is quicker than taking out the lunchbox, folding down the tables, plugging it in, etc. As to width, the Jet cabinet is about 21 inches wide. ( My PM 50 is slightly wider ) The quoted width for the Jet includes the mounting for the fence ( since it is a 12 wide jointer, the rear of the fence bracket takes up about that much space) and the euro style guard has to move forward up to 12 inches. In use, if you set it with a 8 inch exposure, the distance from the the front of the machine ( not counting the guard ) to the rear of the fence bracket is 26 inches. If you set the fence to allow a 12 inch cut, you are closer to 30. Don't forget that unless you run dust collection from above on both sides of the machine ( the jointer discharges to the left, the planer to the right) you will likely run a dust collection pipe behind the machine, so in the end there really isn't that much wasted space and the free area you need to feed lumber into the jointer is the same area as the lumber coming out of the planer and vice versa. I haven't seen any of the other combos in person, but assume they there is a difference between the quoted depth and the footprint and if you can place the machine up against another machine with a table at a different height, there is very little wasted space. If you have the extra floor space, I would think that separates would be better, especially because the table length on the planer is much better, and the costs of separates may not necessarily be prohibitive, unless you are getting a byrd head.

[Joe Spear]

I don't understand the comments about Ron's type size. On my computer it's the same size as everyone else's in this thread.

[Brad Shipton]

Joe, he edited the font. His first posts were about 24pt size text and bold. All good now.

[Doug Shepard]

Doug, I am not sure I followed your point on the lunchbox jointer - are you saying that it doesn't take up any space? While that is true if you keep it stored away when not in use, which is what I did before I got a combo, you would agree it takes up space when in use, ....

Yaah, I wasn't very clear on that. Everything in my shop is mobile and needs to be rolled out to the center of the GaShop when in use. The lunchbox planer (DW733) is small enough that it fits on a large shelf opening against a wall so it's pretty much not a space factor for storage. The existing 6" and any potential combo are in the premium real estate market, which is tight. I'm primarily looking at the footprint required when tucked against a wall and not in use.


...On my Hammer, it's mounted on a rail attached to the infeed side of the jointer table. The rail is no wider than the overall machine and doesn't contribute to increasing the overall width....
...
The fence system on the Jet is on a traditional sliding ways system (like all their other jointers) but it still sticks behind the machine a good distance (again, just like on a regular jointer).
...


The Hammer is the only one so far that looks like it might have a chance of fitting in, obviously due to the fence design. I dont recall the PM54 width at the moment but it also uses the sliding ways. It just seemed like the multiplier was nowhere near the 3x or 4x table width like what I'm seeing on some of the combos.

I'm giving some serious consideration to this (even requested catalogs and spoke to Felder today with some questions) but I don't think it's going to happen real soon unless some outstanding deal surfaces. I'll need to take a hard look at re-configuring my machine storage layout, and possibly get rid of my router table altogether. I picked up a Woodrat a while back and am close to getting a mounting setup done. If it looks like it could completely take the place of my router table, that's a big chunk of space that could accommodate a combo when not in use.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Doug, rather then get into the measurments, which the other guys have covered, I'll go at it from a different angle.

I had a 52" Jet saw, a Dewalt lunchbox planer, a 6" Jet jointer, and a Delta shaper, which I replaced with a Felder combo. This all goes in a 2 car garage, which also contains a 14" Delta bandsaw, a 36" Oliver bandsaw, a floor drill press, a Makita SCMS on a stand, a 4' by 8' work bench, 200 handplanes, a freezer, a fridge, several cabinets, and a big Oneida cyclone.

I bought the combo with a 8.5' ish sliding table, which of course can take a bunch of room if you need it to slide the whole length, but otherwise, the combo leaves a lot more usable space. The useable being the key. With the seperates, which where on wheels, you constantly had to move things to set up workspace. Add this to the time it takes to set up a mobile machine, and the combo is much quicker at changes, and I don't have to move everything around the shop to use the shaper/jointer/planer/saw anymore. Oh, and as a bonus, the Felder quality makes my old tools look really average, and I was able to massively upgrade the capacity in each function.

[Barry Vabeach]

Doug, I am with you now. I have the 733 and love it, though will sell it once I unload the PM 50 jointer. While the literature is a good idea, you might want to call the manufacturers and ask if anyone nearby owns one that you can see. I would be suprised if anyone publishes the dimension that it will fit into when not in use - because that will vary on what you are willing to do - with the Jet, it would probably take up about 22 inches if you take off the fence guard - only 1 screw - but it would take up more depending on your mobile base. Two other things to consider - I think Grizzly and Jet are coming out with 10 inch combos - obviously a lower price point - don't know how that will impact overall size. Have you checked with exfactory or woodweb for used - I can't speak for their services, but exfactory just had a minimax at an attractive price that just sold and currently has some Felder and Hammers -

[Doug Shepard]

Yowza. My Hammer/Felder catalog showed up today. This is some serious 38DD Tool Porn. Scuze me. I'm going to the "Reading Room" now.:D

[Chris Padilla]

Joe, he edited the font. His first posts were about 24pt size text and bold. All good now.

Actually, *I* edited it for him. :)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Yowza. My Hammer/Felder catalog showed up today. This is some serious 38DD Tool Porn. Scuze me. I'm going to the "Reading Room" now.:D

Uh oh, thats how this happens, don't worry though they are sorta fun:D

[glenn bradley]

Glenn, "switched over and ready to feed stock" on my MM combo is about a minute and a half tops...and that's going slow. Really...I'm not exaggerating.

Now that . . . is a very workable situation. Anybody should be happy with that kind of a setup ;-) The Jets and others reviewed by one of the trade rags had very quick conversions but then many, many spins of the crank to get things into position to work and the same amount to get "out" of position to prepare to switch back.

I've never worked on a MiniMax but I've drooled on them at the shows;). MM are not new to this type of machine and it sounds like they have really got it down. Their FS 30 had the fastest change over and was voted Best Overall by FWW. They really beat on Rojek for taking 90-plus turns of the crank to get into position following changeover :(.

P.s. This is what happens when somebody (me) speaks up when he has only read about these things and not actually worked on them. You've heard me say it before; "ask an owner":D

[Ian Wormsbecker]

Another thing to consider is lots of the combo machines have the option for a horizontal mortiser as well. Saving even more shop space versus a dedicated mortiser.


ian.

[John Gornall]

Ron, in BC Felder/Hammer now has a store in Nanaimo - also sells General.

Seems odd that they opened on Vancouver Island rather than on the mainland.

Hop a ferry and come on down.

I'm sure the above is confusing to many - open Google earth and check out western Canada.

PS - I like big text - don't know why we're always squinting at our screens.

[Rick Fisher]

Ron, you really should go to the Felder store in Nanaimo. Chris has a great display and this type of decision should not be made without first having kicked the tires.

When you see the Felder or even Hammer machine, sitting next to the General, you will know right away that there is a big difference.

[Mike Wilkins]

The wide width of some of the combo machines is due to the fence guide rail assembly and the space needed to move it out to its full capacity. I have the same concern with my 12" J/P.
The only company that I have seen that allows you to place the combo next to a wall is the Felder 700/900 series of jointer/planer. These machines have the fence guidance system mounted to the end of the infeed bed, with a long and beefy arm attaching the fence.
So many tool catalogs, so few winning lottery numbers.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

The wide width of some of the combo machines is due to the fence guide rail assembly and the space needed to move it out to its full capacity. I have the same concern with my 12" J/P.
The only company that I have seen that allows you to place the combo next to a wall is the Felder 700/900 series of jointer/planer. These machines have the fence guidance system mounted to the end of the infeed bed, with a long and beefy arm attaching the fence.
So many tool catalogs, so few winning lottery numbers.

On the 741 series saw/shaper jointer/planner combo, the rip fence off the saw is the jointer fence too. It is more of t-square, kind of like a Biesmeyer, just more clever and substantial (love the cam lock). Not sure if you are thinking about the same fence, I've never been around the standalone J/P combo, but the saw type fence would enable it to go right against the wall too.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ron, you really should go to the Felder store in Nanaimo. Chris has a great display and this type of decision should not be made without first having kicked the tires.

When you see the Felder or even Hammer machine, sitting next to the General, you will know right away that there is a big difference.

I'll second that!

[Paul Johnstone]

Better to buy a TWO quality machines...a thickness plane and a jointer.... as opposed to a combination jointer/planer?

You are going to get a lot of opinions.

My biggest complaint about combo jointer/planers is that the jointer beds would be too short for the kind of work I do. That's the main reason I upgraded from a 6" jointer to an 8" jointer, so I could joint longer boards.

If you are going to join boards 6 feet long (for example, the face frame of a bookcase), I think you are going to be disappointed in a combo unit.

Edit: I was talking about the Grizzly and Jet combos.. Maybe some of the higher end combo units allow you to join longer boards, I don't know.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, most of the combo machines offer a variety of table extensions for those occasional moments where you need a longer table.

When you don't need them, they're removed and aren't in the way like larger jointers.

Regards, Rod.

[Brad Shipton]

Aigner also makes extensions to pretty much mount to anything, but the ones with legs can be a bit of a nuisance to adjust in comparison to say one of the long bed industrial jointers. The Aigner extensions cost pretty much the same as the Felder aluminum extensions. I have a couple of the aluminum cantilever setups for the Hammer, and have found that they sag if you are jointing 8/4 stock. The leg versions work very well.

Brad

[Chris Padilla]

You are going to get a lot of opinions.

My biggest complaint about combo jointer/planers is that the jointer beds would be too short for the kind of work I do. That's the main reason I upgraded from a 6" jointer to an 8" jointer, so I could joint longer boards.

If you are going to join boards 6 feet long (for example, the face frame of a bookcase), I think you are going to be disappointed in a combo unit.

Edit: I was talking about the Grizzly and Jet combos.. Maybe some of the higher end combo units allow you to join longer boards, I don't know.

I forget the dimensions of the bed on my MM 16" J/P but I had no issue jointing 10/4 walnut 7' long...other than lifting that ghastly thing. When I went to joint a 10' of walnut, I did add support tables at either side but the operation went smoothly.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

You are going to get a lot of opinions.

My biggest complaint about combo jointer/planers is that the jointer beds would be too short for the kind of work I do. That's the main reason I upgraded from a 6" jointer to an 8" jointer, so I could joint longer boards.

If you are going to join boards 6 feet long (for example, the face frame of a bookcase), I think you are going to be disappointed in a combo unit.

Edit: I was talking about the Grizzly and Jet combos.. Maybe some of the higher end combo units allow you to join longer boards, I don't know.

I think a lot of the theories on this one come from just looking at the photos, not seeing the machine in person. The photo I posted of my machine makes the jointer table look puny, but it reality, it is huge. My machine has a bit over a 16" cutterhead, so the proportions of the thing look all out of wack. In reality, the tables are about a foot each, longer then the Jet jointer that I sold. The CF 741 has approximatly 33" infeed and outfeed tables standard.

That will balance a 5' plus board, and without too much trouble, allow you to go longer. If you want, the Felder cast iron extensions are fully adjustable to maintain a perfectly flat table, and will add about 24". I bought two for this purpose, but after seeing the machine in use, I will probably never use them as jointer table extensions. There is just no need. By the way, the cast iron ones don't flex.

I do have one complaint about the Felder though. I don't like the Euro jointer guard. It works fine, I just have to learn to use it. I suppose I will get used to it, but it is the one safety feature that north American tools have up on the Europeans.

[Robert LaPlaca]

I forget the dimensions of the bed on my MM 16" J/P but I had no issue jointing 10/4 walnut 7' long...other than lifting that ghastly thing. When I went to joint a 10' of walnut, I did add support tables at either side but the operation went smoothly.

Chris,

I own the same machine as you do, the bed is 80" long...

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,

I own the same machine as you do, the bed is 80" long...

Well now, that would explain the ease of jointing an 7' chunk of lumber! :D

I'll post it soon but I added Incra rail to my jointer bed and planer bed in order to add support table! Yeah, I drilled holes in that sucker! :D

[Rick Fisher]

+1 on the Euro jointer guard. It seems cumbersome. On the hammer, it sticks out.
The 700 has a nifty folding mechanism but wouldnt it be simpler if it just
pushed out of the way.. ??

[Brad Shipton]

You can buy the split one (its not cheap) for the Hammer. It only splits in the middle, so it still is a bit of a pain. I have never added one. This is one thing that Minimax has felder beat for sure. The Minimax rotates just like a North American version. I find it odd Felder still does it this way since the amount of items that needs to be added to make this happen is far greater than the simple rotating device that NA machines use.

A common complaint with Felder is the accessory concept. SCMI seems to equip their machines with all the things you need to use them, whereas Felder tends to extra a guy to death.

This is my setup for long stock. I have had problems getting straight edges on much longer than 6' without. Especially, 8/4 stock x 10"+. I would rather have 2 - 30" extensions since the 16" tends to sag a bit at the ends, but they are too expensive.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Shop/DSC01898.jpg

Brad

[Chris Padilla]

Brad,

If you woudn't mind, could you take a pic of the leg on the support table? I am trying to figure out a better/quicker way to adjust the legs on support tables I have for my j/p and bs.

Thanks!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Brad, are those Aigner extensions or Hammer?

[Brad Shipton]

Steve, those are the hammer ones. Personally, if I were to do it again I would go with Aigners. That way you can buy their mounts for any machine in your shop to use the extension on. Plus if you ever want to sell them, you can list em on the Woodweb and re-sell them in a heartbeat. I know lots will think they are crazy expensive, but I have been worn down on sub-projects and these crafty eurpoean goods always fold up and fit somewhere in my tiny shop.

Chris, I took a look to see if I had a better pic, no luck. I will take a close up for you later.

Brad

[Jamie Buxton]

In the Deals & Discount forum, there's a link to a Felder 12" combo in central California for $3K.

[Jim Becker]

You can buy the split one (its not cheap) for the Hammer. It only splits in the middle, so it still is a bit of a pain. I have never added one. This is one thing that Minimax has felder beat for sure. The Minimax rotates just like a North American version.

The "pork chop" guard on a wide jointer is a pain in the you-know-what. I broke two of them on my MM FS350 within a short period of time and then bought the Euro guard. I've been in heaven since. I largely only do face jointing (edges are done on the slider after a board is flat and thicknessed) and the bridge guard is far superior to a pork chop, especially for safety. IMHO, of course. You also get used to moving your hands over it very quickly. At least I did.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Did you all see yet another reason to go with a combo in the new FWW mag? Last page. Of course, I bought mine last month, and completly missed out on the free bandsaw or dust collector deal. Shish.

Jim, I've never heard it called a porkchop guard. Thats pretty good. I suppose you are right, it's probably just what we are used to here, and the euro guard will grow on me. I'm stubborn though...

[Brad Shipton]

Chris, here are the closeups.

Brad

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Shop/DSC01926.jpg

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Shop/DSC01925.jpg



http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Shop/DSC01924.jpg