to me this is somewhat rediculous

[Brian Peters]

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=31001

Wonder if this guy has ever worked in a production shop before. Must take him a long time to cut stuff. Am I the only person that sees this "technique" as stupid? It's like saying hey if you stink at cutting plywood on a table saw do this instead of saying here's how to cut plywood better. And I'm not sure why he refers to doing this with large pieces, I would be curious to watch him cut down a 3/4" 4x8 sheet. :rolleyes:

/rant :D

[Don Abele]

Brian, you have to be a subscriber to see that link you posted.

Be well,

Doc

[David DeCristoforo]

What I think is ridiculous is that no one can see that article unless they sign up for a "membership".....

[Brad Shipton]

I dont see the benefit, but maybe the goal was to sell a couple more clamps. John White does seem quite knowledgable. Each to their own I guess.

Here is what the link shows: I am sure you get the idea.

{picture removed}

Brad

[frank shic]

maybe he was trying to get a nice prize from fine woodworking!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

What I think is ridiculous is that no one can see that article unless they sign up for a "membership".....

Glad to know I'm not the only one. I used to check their site regularly, but now that they have started this BS, they lost me.

The clamp seems silly too.

[Bill Huber]

I just don't have a problem with that, I use the push pads that are for jointers and they work just fine.

I just can not see taking the time to put clamps on every time you make a cut I never get the item made.

But if that help someone get a good cut then that's great.

[jim oakes]

Many of the tips In FW and other mags are puzzling to me. Everyone works with and views there tools differently,but most tips have me thinking "my way is better".
Once and a while there is an absolute gem and I say "great idea, I have to try that"

[Jim Becker]

Folks, FW offers subscriptions to a portion of their online material to generate revenue and stay in business. It's not acceptable to reproduce that material here for folks who have not paid for a subscription. There are legal ramifications for that.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Howard Acheson]

>> John White does seem quite knowledgable.

John White was the longtime manager of the FWW shop. He is now a consultant to FWW, I believe.

[Brad Shipton]

Sorry Jim, my error.

Brad

[Tom Henderson2]

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=31001

Wonder if this guy has ever worked in a production shop before. Must take him a long time to cut stuff. Am I the only person that sees this "technique" as stupid? It's like saying hey if you stink at cutting plywood on a table saw do this instead of saying here's how to cut plywood better. And I'm not sure why he refers to doing this with large pieces, I would be curious to watch him cut down a 3/4" 4x8 sheet. :rolleyes:

/rant :D

Methinks the OP is over-reacting more than a little.

For those that don't have access to the clip, John White is demonstrating a technique where he uses a bar clamp on the fence side of a chunk of plywood to provide a good "handle" on the workpiece. The point is that sometimes plywood, MDF, etc are very slick and it can be a challenge to keep the work pressed up along the fence as you cut, and the bar clamp is one way to mitigate those issues.

Nowhere does he advocate doing this every time, nor does he suggest it is the only way to do it.

He is just providing an idea to those that may be interested.

What the heck is wrong with that? It might come in handy some time. I think it is a reasonable idea and in some respects better than using push blocks or other devices.

What counts is obtaining a good result in a safe manner. This is one means towards that end.

So I don't see anything that is "stupid" about this idea. Use it if you like, or don't.

But why trash the concept?

-TH

[Brian Peters]

First off sorry for those who couldn't access it I forgot its a subscription needed for that video, some stuff you can view without an account. Thanks to those who posted the screenshot/provided info. If you're using slick plywood like prefin or sometimes even larger pieces that are harder to handle just use some good rubber coated gloves. It just got me that he considered the piece he was cutting large or big; and it puzzled me as to why someone would have a hard time handling a piece that size or much larger. I suppose it all depends on the experience and comfort level of the woodworker on the table saw. For me its a fluid gentle and often times fast movement applying pressure towards the face and following through. Different strokes for different folks just giving my 2 cents.:confused:

[John Thompson]

John White was the Shop Manager at FWW magazine for years and left to take a job at one of the WW schools. John White wrote a book on WW machines and is probably one of the most know-ledgeable people around with machines.

What he is advocating is a safe way to cut a large piece of ply. He advocates using an aluminum clamp (aluminum to keep weight down) to provide a sturdy handle on the ply. Large sheets of ply are tricky to keep positively on the fence. If it comes off slightly it can catch rear rising teeth and hello kick-back that happens in an instant. After 5 of those kick-backs with ply.. trust me as getting popped in the gut or having your hand pulled toward the blade is no fun.

The bar provides a handle that is easy to manipulate to keep that ply positively riding the fence with you firmly holding the clamp with both hands. All of us are en-titled to opinions... mine is it is nothing short of "Brillant".

When I saw the method demonstrated I decided it made much sense to me for the few times I cut down ply sheets for drawers and dust shields as I work with solid stock almost exclusively. But.. having had 5 kick-backs over the years with ply and only one while ripping standard stock... I only wish I had thought of it sooner or heard of it. Short of using a power feeder as larger commercial shops use... about as good as it gets IMO...

Sarge..

[Chris Parks]

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=31001

Wonder if this guy has ever worked in a production shop before. Must take him a long time to cut stuff.
/rant :D

It actually appears to be a production shop, that's the first thing. The second is that he appears to be giving a tip for those that don't have a panel saw at home, not for production work where this would not be necessary as they use panel saws, or should. No production shop would or should be cutting sheet goods on a full time basis without a panel saw. Besides that if you are like me, working on your own cutting sheets it is not a half bad idea. Are you in that much of a hurry cutting stuff at home, I don't think so, not me anyway.

[Peter Quinn]

Seems to be a solid concept to me. Not the way i would do it, certainly not at work. The length of your bar clamps would be a limiting factor, and applying a bit too much clamp pressure could bow the sheet and create more problems than it might solve. Not a technique without its problems, but not some horrible abomination either. Looks like a pretty nice shop he is working in there. I'd agree that good technique and a study hand are sufficient for cutting a sheet the size shown in the video.

So file my response to that subject under "Doesn't seem to do much harm, might do some good for some one."

[Chip Lindley]

I was thinking Pony #50 clamp! I personally have had problems with clamps on the edge of plywood used for other than gluing pressure. The clamps seem to want to worm around at the worst possible moment, causing a fear they may become undone right in the middle of a cut! Not to mention that the edge of the plywood may be damaged IF sufficient clamping pressure is applied to provide a "handle." I will trust my instincts and the downward pressure applied by my ten digits rather than an attachment not intended for this application. Iron and carbide do not mix. Since I don't own any expensive aluminum clamps I will file this tip away in the memory banks for another day.

Cutting a half sheet of plywood has never been a problem for me. Infeed and outfeed tables to support the sheet seem to offer more assurance of success than a "handle."

As for FWW charging to peek at their Tips, there is no free lunch. Tauton's plan may backfire as we enter this "not-a-recession." But, I wonder how many forked over their $4.95 just out of curiosity. P.T. Barnum was a shrewd dewd!

[Bill White]

'cause when I checked the link, they were trying to sell me something.
I passed.
Bill

[Rod Sheridan]

The tip regarding the use of a bar clamp as a handle for ripping larger pieces of sheet goods could be useful for some people.

(Lower upper body strength, arthritis etc), in that way it's a good clip.

However, the tablesaw didn't have a guard or splitter, and the operator didn't have hearing protection, and was wearing a long sleeved shirt with the sleeves not rolled up. In addition it appeared that safety glasses weren't worn, just prescription glasses with no side shields.

Generally when demonstrating safe machine operation, it's a good idea not to have 4 or 5 safety problems during the demo.

Regards, Rod.

[Glenn Clabo]

David,
Just wondering...
Why do you think they should give it away free? I doubt that many publocations can survive very long without charging for the infomation they publish.

[David Keller NC]

A comment about John's technique. While clever, and appropriate for those that insist on cutting large sheets of plywood on a table saw in a home shop, there are much, much better ways to accomplish the same thing a whole lot more safely. The bottom line is that it's dangerous for the home shop operator to cut 4X8 sheets of plywood (and especially mdf!) on a table saw. There's a lot of reasons for this, but the two biggest are the requirement to lift a great deal of weight in an awkward position, and the danger of kickback from an unsupported flexing of the sheet. Trust me on this one - the potential for back injury from horsing around a big sheet of plywood or mdf is a very serious one, and you'll usually get little to no warning before your back says "I give up!" and you collapse into a heap on the floor, and spend the next several months in and out of back injury clinics. For many of us, a back injury is permanent - it will not heal the way another muscle injury will.

The much safer way to do this and still get a good, straight edge is with with a guide and a circular saw equipped with a plywood cutting blade. And if you've one of the newer plunge saws, you can even do this with melamine and get a chip-free edge. Moreover, you can make the guide yourself out of scraps if you choose, and the commercial ones have gotten very cheap.

Bottom line - If you're a home shop operator without an 6' long infeed, outfeed, and side table for your saw, and If you've a full sheet of plywood or mdf to cut, DON'T DO IT ON A TABLE SAW!

[John Thompson]

A comment about John's technique. While clever, and appropriate for those that insist on cutting large sheets of plywood on a table saw in a home shop, there are much, much better ways to accomplish the same thing a whole lot more safely. The bottom line is that it's dangerous for the home shop operator to cut 4X8 sheets of plywood (and especially mdf!) on a table saw... David

Too clear something up David... John White is not advocating cutting 4 x 8 sheets of plywood.. MDF.. etc. on the TS. He is only offering a method that "he" uses to cut sheets after broken down as most of us without a panel saw or power feeder do.

I have been cutting the main sheet down with a circular for a long time and then take the smaller pieces to the TS for exact sizing. I have had 5 kick-backs over the years with ply even with those smaller sheets and only one with solid stock ripping. I use front and rear friction table supports. I use not only a plastic shield but a crown gaurd.

There seems to be lots of assumption based on the original post that the video had to be deleted by many that have not seen the video. It would be wise to view it before commenting on just what he is referring to and how he does it.

There has been no mention that John White is ripping the edge off of an approximate sheet about 24 x 48. Nor how he clamps the aluminum bar on the sheet using blocks with dadoes and nails. Nor why he advocates using the aluminum bar clamp especially on melamine.. corian.. phonolic coat.. etc.

And the simple fact he is not advocating you must use this method rather it's just how "he" does it. Meaning... you can adopt it if you wish or run with your own method if you feel it more efficent. John White is a very know-ledgeable WW and WW machine man.. I would hate for the respect that he has earned over the years be tarnished by mere assumptions posted by those that have not even viewed the video.

Not picking on you.. only on asumptions in general.. I know we all know what "a**-u-me" means. :)

Watch the video and then form an opinion of what it really shows or says is all I am saying...

Regards...

Sarge..

[Wilbur Pan]

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=31001

Wonder if this guy has ever worked in a production shop before. Must take him a long time to cut stuff.

Whatever you think about this tip's utility, the time it takes to do this seems like a minor issue. He video takes two minutes to explain the tip, which means that it's less time to do it without talking at a camera. Even at two minutes, that amount of time compared to the total time to produce a piece of furniture is negligible in terms of efficiency.

[David Keller NC]

Actually, I've watched the video several times (FWW re-cycles content to their home page repeatedly), and I still think it's dangerous. While easier on your back, my thought is that any piece of plywood that's too long and wide to be safely handled by hand shouldn't be cut on a table saw without what you'd find in a professional shop - big infeed, outfeed, and side tables surrounding the saw, and often a power feeder.

And while John is posting simply what he does, as you say, the fact that it's a featured technique on the FWW site often leads less experienced WWs to believe that the method shown is "peer-reviewed" (whether that's the case or not). I've had the personal experience of this on many occassions, and the typical opening line is "Cabinetmaker X in FWW suggests doing it this way..." That doesn't mean that someone shouldn't learn from magazines, net videos and the like, but I do think that WW mags should think hard about whether to publish a technique or not if the variations likely to be "encountered in the field" are going to lead to a hazardous situation. I've seen Norm do things on the New Yankee Workshop that makes my skin crawl, and while he's got all ten fingers, he's also a good deal better at what he does than his average viewer.

[Clifford Mescher]

I think the video was informative and the technique might help someone.I didn't think it was ridiculous at all. Clifford

[John Thompson]

Actually, I've watched the video several times (FWW re-cycles content to their home page repeatedly), and I still think it's dangerous. While easier on your back, my thought is that any piece of plywood that's too long and wide to be safely handled by hand shouldn't be cut on a table saw without what you'd find in a professional shop - big infeed, outfeed, and side tables surrounding the saw, and often a power feeder.

And while John is posting simply what he does, as you say, the fact that it's a featured technique on the FWW site often leads less experienced WWs to believe that the method shown is "peer-reviewed" (whether that's the case or not). I've had the personal experience of this on many occassions, and the typical opening line is "Cabinetmaker X in FWW suggests doing it this way..." That doesn't mean that someone shouldn't learn from magazines, net videos and the like, but I do think that WW mags should think hard about whether to publish a technique or not if the variations likely to be "encountered in the field" are going to lead to a hazardous situation. I've seen Norm do things on the New Yankee Workshop that makes my skin crawl, and while he's got all ten fingers, he's also a good deal better at what he does than his average viewer.

I see your point David but... I personally don't think it's dangerous if set up as he describes. I really prefer not to put sheets on the TS unless already cut down to under 36" x 48" as I have sufficient friction support in place. The only thing that can get squirrelly IMO at that point is un-intentionally allowing the sheet to come off that fence and that's where trouble got started for me on the previous 5 kick-backs with ply.

I used the method about a week ago to cut down some 3/4" MDF for a taper jig base and again this morning for a broken down sheet of MDF to re-stock my wood rack with it for templates.. etc. I really like the method and will continue to use it unless something happens that changes my mind.

I will agree with you on what they put on the inter-net often being goobled up as the Holy Grail with un-experienced WW's. I had a running gun battle with the Editor of FWW not long ago about a video he posted on riving knives where they stated with a riving knife on a TS you elminated kick-back.

That is not true at all and it took a week of convincing the editor that a riving knife is only 1 safety feature of several and even with all of them you are not totally free from kick-back. So a word of caution to new WW.. just because you read it or see it... dpesn't always make it so. If you have doubt... ask questions as the WW mag guys put their pants on as anyone else and make mistakes.

There is nobody that knows all about WW and that includes so-called experts that aren't always experts if you look deeper than the shiny cover.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Rob Blaustein]

I think the video was informative and the technique might help someone.I didn't think it was ridiculous at all. Clifford

Agreed.
Also, the fee for online access to FWW (or FHB) IF you subscribe already, is quite reasonable given the search capability and the number of articles (spanning many years) you can view. I find it very useful and a great value.

[Lee Hingle]

Bottom line - If you're a home shop operator without an 6' long infeed, outfeed, and side table for your saw, and If you've a full sheet of plywood or mdf to cut, DON'T DO IT ON A TABLE SAW!

David,
I guess I should have talked to you before I did all of this - without a 6' long infeed, outfeed and side table. It took roughly 3-4 hours to do this with a powermatic 66. No slider. And absolutely, positively, no circular saw with a guide.


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=100740&d=1226380005





While I see you are passionate about your circular saw, that technique is not for everybody.

Lee Hingle

[Mike Heidrick]

OT - I love those aluminum clamps - universal clamp co or whatever brand they are. I want to add about 30 of the 30" ones to my shop. They are awesome.

[DEBRA BOEHMER]

I have ripped plywood with a table saw numerous times. And it is faster. I have also ripped plywood with a circular saw. The key is working safe. I always wear safety goggles, there is always a guard on the table saw, and I always have a helper with me when ripping.

I use a push stick too. You have to feed the saw by pushing the material through. If it gets in a bind then it sometimes is becuase the wood can't fall away from the table saw and it go's against the blade. Either way to each their own way. Some just learn the hard way when others do not.

~Debra

[William OConnell]

Although I wouldn't or honestly couldn't say any way is better for any particular individual, I cut full sheets all the time on the tablesaw with just my hands. Although his technique isn't for me, if it is good for him or others and I say Bravo.
Heres my weekend plywood project (OSB :( )I pulled a whole house blower out of a dumpster and needed to do something with it before winter. I didn't want to cause a thermal break by cutting it into the wall so I decided to make a rolling cabinet to roll to the door and just close the door on it.
Again every cut was made with a tablesaw for the blower and the carts. Sans the holes with a jig saw and the half laps on the carts via bandsaw
http://woodworkers.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1628&g2_serialNumber=2&g2_GALLERYSID=78244b81d7e887af21a01afc8f5c094b
Fits like a glove Now I need to fix the overhead shelf. Moves some serious air quietlt too
http://woodworkers.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1631&g2_serialNumber=2&g2_GALLERYSID=78244b81d7e887af21a01afc8f5c094b

[Maurice Ungaro]

I've seen Norm do things on the New Yankee Workshop that makes my skin crawl, and while he's got all ten fingers, he's also a good deal better at what he does than his average viewer.

John White probably has a lot more experience than most critics. As for FWW "pay to enjoy" policy for its video and article library - that's their choice. Personally, I prefer to pay $14.95/year for an online subscription, vs: the hardcopy price. It's like a gun: if you don't like them, don't have one.

BTW, I recently ripped a 160 lb, 8 ft laminated maple counter top on my Uni. It was for an installation I was doing. I used two (2) roller stands (an outfeed table - less than 6 feet long is on my to-do list). It's all about control, caution, and patience. Oh, the cut turned out pretty darn good, all things considered.

[David Keller NC]

I've no doubt about John's skill. That said, FWW's audience has a lot of newbies, and cutting large sheets of plywood with a circular saw and a guide is simply safer than handling it on a table saw, period. My personal opinion is that woodworking teachers shouldn't show techniques that, if not executed properly, will be very dangerous. The exception is when they know their audience only contains experienced individuals (such as a WW class), but that's not the case with magazines and internet videos.

In regards to whether any of us have successfully ripped large sheets of plywood on a table saw - this is missing the point when it comes to safety. Safety is predicated on what might happen and the likelyhood of the outcome, not what on average happens. I'm certainly no saint in this regard - I've done more than my share of operations that, when considered afterwards, were not too smart. Ripping large pieces of sheet goods on a table saw without a power feeder and large tables surrounding it was one of those things. There's good reason why large cabinet shops have these auxillary items on their table saws - it's not just about productivity.