table saw woes

[Joe Skinner]

I cannot seem to figure out my table saw. I just purchased this new Steel City cabinet saw about 6 months ago and it has seen very light use. It was great and I loved using it, until about a month ago. When ripping, the stock tries to pull away from the fence starting about mid-blade. If I keep the stock tight to the fence, the motor will bog and even stop. It does this with my Dewalt blade and the woodworker II blade. The Dewalt is fresh from the sharpener.

So, I figured that somehow the blade or fence got out of square, but everything measures out fine. I do not have a micrometer, so I used my square. I raise the blade to full hight, mark a tooth at the front, put the short end of the square in the miter slot, and move the long end until it touches the blade. Then rotate the blade to move the marked tooth to the rear and verify the distance is the same, I then flip the square and measure from slot to fence, front, middle and back. Everything measures out good, yet I still cannot rip.

Is there something I am doing wrong? Is there anyone in the Fort Worth area who is willing to come take a look at this and give me some advice?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe,

Have you tried another blade?

The checks you have made should determine if something is out of alignment.

I wonder if one side of the blade your using has been damaged so the teeth on one side are not cutting evenly causing the wood to try to move?

[Joe Skinner]

I have tried a Dewalt (don't remember the model number) and a Forrest WWII blade. Same results.

[John Keeton]

Joe, it sounds like the face of the fence may not be flat??! Never heard of it, but that certainly would cause the result you are having. Can you put a straight edge or string on it?

[Jim O'Dell]

Can you check the fence to slot to see if it is parallel? It could be out and pushing the wood into the blade. Pushing the wood into the fence would be pushing it into the blade. Sounds like it could be causing you your problem. If you need to borrow some alignment tools, I've got a dial indicator and a small set up square you can come borrow. I'm just west of Loop 820 on the west side. PM me if that will help. Jim.

[Joe Scharle]

Sounds like something under the table is loose allowing the blade to skew!

[scott spencer]

Joe - Is the stock reasonably flat and have a straightened edge against the fence? Does it do this with all pieces or just one in particular?

[glenn bradley]

Joe - Is the stock reasonably flat and have a straightened edge against the fence? Does it do this with all pieces or just one in particular?

Scott hit on my thoughts; have the face to the fence and the face down been jointed. If there is wave in your boards it can cause funky and dangerous things to happen.

You can isolate your trouble shooting by running a 5-cut test (http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/five_cut_method_swf.htm)with your miter gauge. This takes the fence out of the equation. If that checks out but the fence guided behavior continues, double check that fence to miter slot and fence to blade alignment.

[Joe Skinner]

It has done this with pine, oak, walnut, and birtch ply. I think I have ruled out the stock. I did put a framing square on the fence and it is flat.

I will try the 5 cut test and see what I get.

Jim - you have a PM

[Chip Lindley]

I agree with Joe! IF your blade checks out parallel to the miter slot, and the fence is aligned with the miter slots, then the trunnions, raise, or tilt gear under the table may have become loose. If your saw is like a Unisaw, the table is bolted to the cabinet above the running gear, which is bolted to the cabinet below. Two chances to get out of whack here. Unlikely, BUT never say never! If you detect looseness in the bolts securing the table or trunnions, replace the bolts with Grade 5 hardened bolts and nuts, which can be torqued down much tighter than the cheapies.

[Jim Crockett]

Have you changed, added or in any way messed with your splitter? I've seen this problem on my TS when the splitter got knocked out of alignment with the blade. As soon as the kerf hits the splitter, it starts pulling the stock away from the fence and it usually appears that it starts about halfway through the blade diameter.

Check with a straightedge to see if the splitter is properly aligned with your blade. It sounds like you have checked and all of your other alignments are in order.

Hope this helps.

JimC

[Joe Skinner]

I have the problem with and without the spiltter.

I ran the 5 cut test and according to this, something is definitly out of whack.

I guess a dial indicater is in my future.

[Scott Myers]

Joe,

I recently ran into a problem on a SC saw. I had remove the top to access the trunnion and mounts to figure it out. You will need a dial indicator and mounting hardware to work on it to check all aspects of alignment. Once you have the equipment, check the blade again, using the marked tooth method. Then crank it over to 45 degrees and check it. If this doesn't check out well, then indeed, somemthing is loose (probably trunnnion brackets) and you have alignment issues.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if the wood is pulling from the fence during the rip and you are not getting kickback, that must mean that the motor torque is moving the blade arbor to the left somehow, which probably means the trunnion assembly is moving left.

The problem I found in the one I worked on was that the left rear bolt had come loose from the trunnion mount allowing the tracks the trunnion rides in to get out of parallel. The trunnion could shift slightly back and to the left. It would still move normally when you would move the blade from 90 to 45 degrees with the handwheel. You'll need metric sockets and box end wrenches to work on the trunnion.

Sounds like you might have to dive into the bowels of the saw. Not much fun and a real time eater, but you'll get a good education in the process. Hopefully, your problem is simpler, but I can't imagine what it is.

[Larry Browning]

Joe, Here are a couple of sources for inexpensive dial indicators. There are all kinds of simple jigs you can make to use these effectively. Just search the creek for lots of ideas.

Harbor freight has them (http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?catPath=All%2BProducts%252F%252F%252F%25 2FUserSearch%253Ddial%2Bindicator&currentPage=2&lastPage=2&isNext=false&isPrevious=true&category=&attributeValue=&attributeName=&requestedPage=2&resultsPerPage=10&resultsPerPageBottom=0)

This is place has a bigger selection (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=336&PMITEM=605-4604)

In any case you can be setup nicely for less than $30. And you will be amazed at how often this thing come in handy.

[CPeter James]

Here is an article I wrote for our guild's newsletter on settijgup a table saw.

CPeter

http://home.metrocast.net/~cpjvkj/tstuneup.htm

[CPeter James]

You can get the dial indicators at MSCDirect or MacMaster Carr and they have overnight service shipping standard.

CPeter

[Mike Sheppard]

Joe
I had that same thing happing with my saw and found that the fence was not locking enough on the back side, what I though was the wood moving was the fence moving. Got the book out and fixed it, has worked good since.
Mike

[Dave Falkenstein]

Nobody has mentioned talking to the Steel City folks and determining what they have to say. Perhaps Steel City has a local representative or contract technician that they can send to help you?

I also would recommend checking out the blade and fence alignment with a dial gauge before you go into the guts of the saw.

Regardless of the fact that the problem happens with and without the splitter, you will want to be certain the splitter is properly aligned with the blade.

I hope you find the source of your problem.

[Bruce Page]

Joe, if you have a good straight edge up against the fence and are having these problems then something isn’t square and it’s likely the fence. I know that the combo square method has been around for decades but as a former machinist I just don’t trust the accuracy of the method. I recommend that you invest in a decent Universal gauge and indicator to check both the blade to miter slot and the fence to miter slot. With this simple tool, you will KNOW that you have everything perfect.

You can find more info in this thread including a link to an inexpensive gauge sold by Grizzly.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315)

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi Joe

I was following this post from the beginning but I was a little bit shy to "step-in" because not only that I'm an amateur but also....from Poland (just joking)...

I don't use any "precision measuring instruments"...actually I don't use noting....

I set the blade-to-miter slot with the good old method of the square....

Just imagine that you could check the blade-to-miter slot alignment (or rip fence alignment) while the blade is turning at normal 4000 RPM....it would give you the most accurate position of the blade to the miter slot....

Don't imagine......you can do it and you can do it in a very simple way....

I call this check "Dynamic test"....I just "ask" the blade - "Are you aligned" and the blade "tells" me "I'm toed in" or "I'm toed out" or "I'm aligned"....a few tests and fine tunings and the blade is set perfect...

For the "how to" story, please have a look here
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=89490

Regards
niki

[Jim O'Dell]

Nobody has mentioned talking to the Steel City folks and determining what they have to say. Perhaps Steel City has a local representative or contract technician that they can send to help you?

I also would recommend checking out the blade and fence alignment with a dial gauge before you go into the guts of the saw.

Regardless of the fact that the problem happens with and without the splitter, you will want to be certain the splitter is properly aligned with the blade.

I hope you find the source of your problem.

Dave and all, Joe came by this afternoon and borrowed my dial and it's magnetic base, and also my hopefully precision square (Rockler unit). He described how he checked with the combo square, and that should be pretty accurate, even if the square is not. I believe the ones that said something is loose allowing the blade to move have to be right. I did also suggest he call Steel City as they may have run into what is going on before and have a good fix for it. The saw cut correctly for the first 6 months he had it, so something has changed. That can be corrected so it will cut right again. th I also told him how good everyone says their CS is.
I'm not convinced that the tools I loaned him are going to help a whole lot...I just don't think that is the answer. Something is moving, and since the wood is moving away from the fence, I don't think the fence is the problem. It almost has to be something in the trunnion set that is loose.

Joe, I didn't think to ask you if you continue the cut, is the cut straight, or does it curve? If it curves, the blade is moving to the left for some reason. If it is straight, though not parallel to the opposite side, then I'd think that the blade must be out of alignment. But, then, I'm no guru on TS set up either. :rolleyes: Jim.

[Scott Schwake]

You can find more info in this thread including a link to an inexpensive gauge sold by Grizzly.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315)

Bruce, I read through your link on gauges & set up and looked at the Grizzly link. What's the difference between a test indicator & a dial indicator? How does the indicator attach to the surface gauge?

Thanks, Scott

[Bruce Page]

Bruce, I read through your link on gauges & set up and looked at the Grizzly link. What's the difference between a test indicator & a dial indicator? How does the indicator attach to the surface gauge?

Thanks, Scott
Scott, a test indicator will have a pivoting tip and is more flexible for typical machine shop type setups than a dial/travel indicator. They don’t have very much travel, usually less that 1/16”.

The dial/travel indicator has a plunger type tip and will have a much greater measuring range. The 3rd pic in 2nd post that I linked to shows test indicators, the 4th pic shows the dial or “travel” type. The two travel indicators to the left in the pic have 2” of travel with .001 resolution.

Either type will work in this application.

[DEBRA BOEHMER]

I'm not a machinist, but I'm pretty good at checking with a square to see if the fence is out of alignment. Since that is a new table saw and I would call the manufacturer after checking a few things like making sure the fence is tight and not loose. Check the blade out and see if it is warped.

With that being a new table saw, it may have been somehow bumped during shipment if it was not packed well.

Please do let us know what happens, we all can learn from this situation..

[John Dougherty]

Joe, there are really only a few likely causes of what you describe. If the stock you use has been jointed on the edge to the fence and flattened on the face to the table, and the sawblade is parallel to the miter grooves, then the next likely cause is deflection in the fence. Check that the fence locks properly and that the far end does not move easily when pressure is applied to the saw facing side at the far end.

[Mark Boyette]

Just a thought.. but I had a similar problem with a brand new Saw Stop at work last year. I checked the fence to the blade several times and it measured out perfect. Tried several other blades but had the same problem. I couldn't understand why the sheets were pulling off the fence and binding. Went back and forth with the saw stop rep and out of a hunch I put our old unisaw washer on the new saw stop. With the other washer it cut perfect.
Ended up the washer wasn't milled perfectly flat. Therefore when I tightened the blade down it actually warped the blade a bit. If I put a straight edge on the blade there was a gap in the middle. If you loosed the nut it straightened out. Wasn't out much either but you could see it with a straight edge on the washer.
Again.. long shot here for you but something to look at.
BTW.. saw stop rep was really good and said he never heard of that before in his years there. Typical of my luck.
Mark.

[Alan DuBoff]

You can find more info in this thread including a link to an inexpensive gauge sold by Grizzly.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315)
Bruce,

This is an excellent thread you linked to, thanks so much for posting it to begin with a couple years ago. I have never seen it until now.

I have quite a bit of machinist tools, and I got a bit of tools from a guy last year that belonged to his father, and low and behold there's a Brown & Sharpe 621 surface gage in the lot. I have an assortment of dial indicators and test indicators, as I also bought a retired tool and die maker's tools who worked at the Cat plant back in IL. My surface gage only has 2 pins, but should work fine.

One Q I had for you is, it seems that you push the pins against the miter slot wall that is closest to the blade, and I think the reason you do that is so that you can pull it away from the blade to release and reposition the gage to measure the opposite side of the blade (i.e., front/back with same tooth). Is that in fact what you do, push the pins against the miter slot wall and get a reading that way? (hope that makes sense when you read it)

The reason I ask is that I had been rigging a kinda similar fixture, but was trying to rest the fixture against the back wall of the miter slot, away from the blade...I was thinking that this would be more accurate, but in hindsight after seeing your pics, it seems like it would be easier to push the pins into the miter slot wall closest to the blade, so that repositioning is easier. Is that in fact how your measuring in those pics?

I have to say, I had bought one of these A-LINE-IT gages when I bought my previous table saw.

http://www.woodcraft.com/images/products/148719.jpg

After getting some real machinist tools, it is apparent what a real piece of garbage the A-LINE-IT tool is...close enough to align a table saw, but that's about it...:rolleyes: I have several dial indicators, one or two are .0001, those are sweet! :)

The A-LINE-IT doesn't fit the miter slot of my Yates-American, it was designed to fit a standard 3/4" slot, and the YA has a slot that is about 1 1/4" wide, as I recall...the surface gage will work dandy for that!

[Joe Scharle]

For woodworking, you don't expensive setups. Something like this will do just fine.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/194/Alignment_Setup.JPG

[Alan DuBoff]

For woodworking, you don't expensive setups. Something like this will do just fine.
Joe,

I agree you don't need a very expensive setup, if I had to do it over again, I'd spend more on the actual dial inidicator, rather than the A-LINE-IT package.

For my purpose, I have since acquired several dial and test indicators, so really don't need to spend anything, I have a Brown & Sharpe surface gage also...I don't need to futz around with any jig now, as Bruce shows how to use it with an indicator to get an accurate reading. ;)

Sure, I don't need to use my good dial and test indicators, but I have them now, and I have that lousy indicator that came with the A-LINE-IT, it rates right up there in quality with all the Chinese indicators that I know better not to buy now...:p Using a quality tool is something I will always appreciated. It's hard to compare a good quality indicator to a piece of garbage. Not that we need the accuracy for woodworking, we don't. But setup happens but once in a great while, and there is no reason to use an inferior tool to perform the job. My $0.02.

EDIT: I just looked at Enco, I can get an equivalent Enco for $8.99 (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=946562&PMAKA=605-4010), or a quality one for about the same price as the A-LINE-IT basic (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=2615178&PMAKA=601-2256).

The answers are out there, the cheap Enco would do fine for this purpose, and allow one to save about $70 on the A-LINE-IT basic.

[Jason White]

You shouldn't need a dial indicator. The combination square method works great even on less expensive contractor saws (like mine).

For those of you with Biesemeyer-type fences: Is there a chance that the rear of the fence could be pushing away from the blade during a cut?

On my saw, the fence locks on both the front and rear rails, but I'm pretty sure Biese-style fences only lock at the front.

Jason




I have the problem with and without the spiltter.

I ran the 5 cut test and according to this, something is definitly out of whack.

I guess a dial indicater is in my future.

[Jim Heffner]

I'm not positive...but it sounds like the trunnion/mounting bolts are not tight. May need to check/recheck them to see if they are properly tightened and see if this eliminates your problem.

[John Sanford]

Have you checked the blade parallelism at less than full elevation? If something is loose/tweaked slightly, the blade may be aligned at max elevation, and slightly toeing at your normal cutting heights.

That's all I got...

[Joe Skinner]

Some folks have asked me for an update to this thread, but there really isn't much to say. I have had a change in marital status and been traveling for work, so not much time in the shop. However, this weekend I will begin building my new bedroom furniture, so I will have some real world results.

I believe the problem was the motor pulley. I noticed the set screw had backed off and allowed the pulley to slide on the output shaft. I lined it up with the arbor pulley and did some test cuts and it seems to be good now. I have a hard time believing a misaligned pulley can flex the trunnion enough to cause problems, but that seems to be what I am looking at now.