Jointer Decision

[John Pennisi]

I'm taking a hard look at the Grizzly G0490X which is the large 8" with helical cutterhead and 3 HP motor.
http://www.grizzlyindustrial.com/images/pics/jpeg288/g/g0490x.jpg
The price for this looks to be somewhere around $1000 before shipping. Please excuse the lack of knowledge but I cannot understand why Powermatic's 8" jointer with helical head and only 2 HP is more than $2500. I would really prefer the power of the 3 HP. I understand the Powermatic has a great reputation for quality, but can anyone help explain some of the reasons why Grizzly's machine is so much more moderately priced. I have no experience with the Grizzly brand but can't help but be intrigued by their low prices and seemingly solid machines. Thanks!

[Andy Casiello]

I think there are a lot of "reasons" why Grizzly is priced so much less - lack of dealer network, focus on price point, difference in perceived brand "status", and perhaps some quality differences. I have a Grizzly table saw, a Grizzly band saw and a Grizzly jointer. I've looked at all the major brands when I have gotten ready for each purchase, and keep ending up with Grizzly. For my money I have a hard time finding the value in other brands that warrant double the price of Grizzly. My Grizzly gear is high quality and their customer service is great. What's not to love?

[Scott Myers]

My thoughts will seem to wander a bit in this post as it is long winded, but hopefully I will make my point. Let me say upfront that I don't have any first hand experience with Grizzly equipment.

I am in the process of re-tooling up my shop. I went through an absolute fiasco in buying the heart of the shop, the new tablesaw. After returning one saw and 2 months of agony, I finally got the Sawstop. Yes, I considered Grizzly. While quality and design is BIG with me, in the end, it really came down to safety, as I have young CURIOUS boys. It cost me three times what the Grizzly would have cost, but it is like comparing apples and oranges. But to be fair, comparing the guts of ANY other table saw to a Sawstop is like comparing a Bently Automobile to most other cars. They are just on different planets with different design parameters. (I'm an engineer and have an eye for design detail. It's a curse sometimes!)

In this post-process of buying the first saw, I crawled all over the saws I could find in showrooms - Steel City, Jet, Powermatic, General and a few others. There are some big design philosophy differences in some of these brands and they are difinitely going for different demographics. Unfortunately, I could not dissect the Grizzly, as they are not local to me and they are only sold through Grizzly. HOWEVER, if you call them, they will give you local references to people who are participating and have purchased the Jointer you are considering. You can then look them up in information and give them a call and perhaps even set-up to go look at their machine. This is what I would do if I were you.

So now, I am looking to upgrade the jointer and planer. The combo units from Grizzly look enticing, as their price is good and I can get a 12" jointer in the process. (I did get a reference from Grizzly for someone that owns one in my area and spoke with them.) But their discrete units are attractive too. I like the idea a combo unit will take less floor space, and I am limited there. I am planning on actually making a trip to Eastern PA (I live in Western Ohio) to crawl over the various machines I am considering buying. I really want to see what the quality is on their various machines. I get mixed reports on Grizzly equipment. Apparently, they have some machines that seem to be much better built than others. I have had a couple of long conversations with their tech support and they will hint that their Taiwanese machines are better (in general, but not always) than their Chinese built ones. They also have some differences between their "Extreme Series" machines and the others.

One other HUGE factor in what makes Grizzly's prices so much lower than the competition is they are sold direct and not through retail stores & distribution. I have worked in distribution for 25 years and know that in order to survive, you have to make some pretty good average margins on the equipment you sell. So this is A LOT of it also.

The upshot to buying through distribution is that you get local support, although I am find that this is really not so much so anymore. In the end, you end up working with the factory technical support if there is a problem with anyone, including Grizzly.

This takes me back again to my recent table saw buying experience. I took people's advice here from the Creek and a certain major chain woodworking machinery store owner's advice on the cabinet saw purchase. In the end, it was completely lacking in design and manufacturing quality to suit me. But yet others on here rave about them. Clearly, this particular brand is designed to meet a certain price point and serious corners were cut to do so. It was a "business decision" made by that company in the saw's design. I am happy for those that like their saw even if I think it's not up to my standards. It's all a matter of what your expectations are and how much you are willing to pay to get those expectations satisfied. (No, I won't disclose the name of that manufacturer publically, as it would start a big flame thread which I don't have the patience for.)

Does Grizzly break the normal rule of "You get what you pay for"? I can't say. In the end, you just have to go look at a machine and judge for yourself. What may be great for you might be junk for me. It's all in your expectations. But since you mentioned Powermatic, I will guess that you want top shelf, but the price scares you. (Don't we all WANT top shelf?) If you have drooled over the Powermatic, you might find that most others are going to fall short of the attention to detail that Powermatic puts into their equipment. General is another that comes to mind in that "no corners cut" category. Neither of those manufacturers cut many corners, which is certainly part of their higher price. But I am sure the Grizzly will joint wood just fine, as I hear their tech support is pretty good at supporting their equipment. If you want all the really nice machining details and precision handwheels, you may have to go back to the Powermatic, but you're gonna pay for those nice details and machining precision. But again, I don't have any real experience with Grizzly's attention to such details... yet. I'll let you know after I visit their showroon.

OK, I'm done now.:o

[Howard Norman]

John, I have the original G0490 jointer. In fact mine is from the first shipment to the US. It is a solid machine and the only regret, and that is a minor one, is that I don't have a spiral cutter head on the machine. Quite frankly there has only been a couple of times where the spiral cutter would have helped. I would recommend the G0490.

It will help if you have a second pair of hands when you are putting it on the stand but you could do it by yourself. That assumes you have some sort of mechanical lifting help. I just used a come-a-long fastened to an overhead floor joist myself.

[Dave Verstraete]

John
I have the exact jointer that you are looking at. I am very satisfied with its quality and performance. I looked at the powermatic also before buying the Grizzly. I haven't looked back.

[Ben Martin]

Perhaps buying use is an option? I purchased a 1979 Powermatic 60 for $600.

[glenn bradley]

Another satisfied G0490X owner here. The 3 horses are nice as even a 1/4" edge cut in ash like I did today is very low effort and comes out very smooth. This is not my normal use of a jointer; I generally set it at about 1/32" and face joint, edge joint and move on to the planer.

The tall fence is nice and the integrated mobile base comes in handy for me as my jointer parallels my lumber rack wall. When I need to get to the rack, I just step down on the base elevator and swing the beast 70* or so. I marked the bases corner locations on the concrete with felt pen (real high tech) so I can swing it right back.

The spiral head, the 3 HP, the mag switch, long beds and high fence along with I don't know how many people here and elsewhere who vouched for it made my decision. You'll have to decide for yourself ;-)

[Steve Vaughn]

This jointer shows up in the buy it now/live.com/MS cash back program right now at 25% off. I believe that there is a $200.00 cash back limit though.

Steve

[John Bush]

Hi John,
I have the G0609X(spiral ) and it is great machine. I had a PM 60B(newer 8" model??) and upgraded to the wider Griz due to a big pile of rough stock over 8" wide needing milled. I was able to sell the PM at a favorable price because it is .......well.......a...PM. I live close to a Griz showroom and have seen all their "stuff" many times and I frankly don't see the PM value added difference. My 60B was a great machine, was manufactured in Taiwan, castings and finish level similar to the Griz line, and cost was 25% more than the comparable Griz. The PM would be great if the price matched, maybe used, but the Griz is a better value at retail cost.. I have a Griz BS, belt sander, spindle sander, and DC cyclone and haven't needed any service so that hasn't been an issue for me. The spiral head is worth the extra $$$$, too. I milled lots of brd ft of mahogony and purple heart and had limited tear out problems. The next Griz for me will be a 20" spiral planer...unless I can find a PM @ the same $$$$.Good luck, JCB

[John Pennisi]

And especially you Scott for the lengthy reply. Very thorough and useful. I am leaning towards the Grizzly jointer but do have a few reservations. It does seem to be a large machine and am a bit worried about how it's dimensions will fit in my close to 500 sq. ft. basement shop. Many of the other 6-8" jointers have smaller bases, but I guess the reason for this is that the Grizzly is a "parallelogram" style which seems to account for the large size. As you can see I also don't know a whole lot about the parallelogram aspect other than (I think) both infeed and outfeed tables can adjust/move simultaneously as one unit. Any help on this would be welcome also. Thanks again to all for the help and though I favor the Griz jointer, my mind is not yet made up.

[Jim Kountz]

For the guys who said they own this jointer, how do you like the levers vs handwheels for height adjustment? Do you find they work just as well or maybe better? I too am agonizing over a jointer choice however I know I will get a Griz just not sure which model yet as they have I think three or four @ the 8" size.

[Don Bullock]

...It does seem to be a large machine and am a bit worried about how it's dimensions will fit in my close to 500 sq. ft. basement shop. ...

John, I can speak to the size issue. Yes, it is big. Mine is currently in my shop that is half of a two car garage. Because the G0490 has the mobile base that is very easy to use, I move it up against the wall when I'm not using it and roll it out when needed. For a small shop the size of the base isn't the problem. Those long beds really stick out on both ends, but they give the length needed for some longer lumber. Other things in the shop can go under them when I store it against the wall. When I added the cost of a mobile base G0586 jointer the price was close to the G0490 (I bought it on a Summer Sale). I think right now the G0586 with a Grizzly mobile base is $664.95 and the G0490 is $775 (difference of $110.05) which is not quite as close as it was when I bought mine.

Jim, As far as comparing the levers to wheels, since I've not use a jointer I don't find any problem with the levers. I guess if I was used to the wheels I wouldn't like them.

I've been very happy with my G0490. Except for lifting the jointer up on the base, it was very easy to set up and adjust. For me that was important due to the fact that I've never owned a jointer and only used one ( as 6" Jet) once before I bought it.

[Robert Chapman]

John - I too have a fairly small shop but wanted an 8 inch jointer. So I looked for smaller units with a helical cutter head. The Jet JJ-8HH is only 66.5 inches long which works just fine for me as I rarely joint anything longer that 6 feet. The helical cutter head works very well but will give you a very slight scalloped effect along the length of the board which will only be visible under just the right light or after you have applied some finish. Unfortunatly the motor started making a racket after about 5 hours use - Jet is sending me a new motor.

[glenn bradley]

For the guys who said they own this jointer, how do you like the levers vs handwheels for height adjustment?

Wheels vs. levers and the cutterhead style were the two things I agonized the most over. I am happy to say that despite my concerns, the levers vs. wheel argument turned out to be a non-issue. The levers works very easily and are very controllable. After my first time playing with them I have never given it a thought.

[Cary Falk]

For the guys who said they own this jointer, how do you like the levers vs handwheels for height adjustment? Do you find they work just as well or maybe better? I too am agonizing over a jointer choice however I know I will get a Griz just not sure which model yet as they have I think three or four @ the 8" size.

I just got the Shop fox W1741 which is the Grizzly G0490 twin brother.
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/caryincamas/DSC_0441.jpg
I went out of my way years ago to get my 6" Jet jointer with wheels because I thought I would like them better. Having played with the W1741 this weekend, I must say I like the levers much better. They are much quicker to adjust and is just as accurate. When the knives dull then I will probably add a spiral cutterhead because I hate changing knives.

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm taking a hard look at the Grizzly G0490X which is the large 8" with helical cutterhead and 3 HP motor.
http://www.grizzlyindustrial.com/images/pics/jpeg288/g/g0490x.jpg
The price for this looks to be somewhere around $1000 before shipping. Please excuse the lack of knowledge but I cannot understand why Powermatic's 8" jointer with helical head and only 2 HP is more than $2500. I would really prefer the power of the 3 HP. I understand the Powermatic has a great reputation for quality, but can anyone help explain some of the reasons why Grizzly's machine is so much more moderately priced. I have no experience with the Grizzly brand but can't help but be intrigued by their low prices and seemingly solid machines. Thanks!

Hi John, as other people have mentioned, the price of machinery is related to costs and required profits.

I understand that Grizzly is mainly a mail order business, that helps reduce the purchase price, however you have to pay shipping on top of the price.

When I buy machinery, the shipping has been built in to the local dealer. I have to pay it of course, it's simply hidden.

Profits are a similar story, as others have mentioned, if the local dealer sells a product, the dealer makes a profit. Grizzly also makes a profit of course.

The "high quality" issue is somewhat subjective, however better machinery will have better and more costly quality control, materials, and specifications. Once you start measuring and inspecting in detail, the costs go up.

Of course the flip side of the increased costs for QC, is that a better product is produced.

I've purchased offshore equipment from Taiwan and Austria, as well as Canadian made General machinery.

Is the Taiwanese equipment as high quality as the General or Austrian equipment, no, not even close, neither is the price.

All equipment is built to a price point which includes the manufacturing, distribution, dealer and support costs. The more you pay for equipment, in general the better the product, the QC, the support and performance will be.

When the Austrian equipment was delivered to my home, it was in perfect condition, had been run at the factory, and again in Canada prior to delivery. It performed flawlessly as expected.

No paint chips, incredible packaging, everything straight/accurate/calibrated.

Did I pay for the higher quality, you bet, however I wouldn't have been satisfied otherwise.

So yes, you do get what you pay for, your only issue is how much quality/performance and accuracy are you willing to pay for?

Regards, Rod.

[John Hedges]

I think Rod captured it. I have the G0490 and it is built to a price point. For the $$ it is a servicable machine. There is a big difference between top shelf and servicable and as long as the person making the decision realizes this and chooses the according to their need and what they can afford then they have made a smart decision. I am guessing you can find the PM locally to take a look at, and I believe Grizzly has a program where they can find someone in your area who has the machine and you can look at it. I think you would be wise to compare the two first hand.

If you want higher quality you will have to pay for it. If I were to buy again it would be the PM, as the quality of the Grizzly is less than what I would prefer, but that is just my opinion, if you shop around I'm willing to bet you could find it for closer to 2K. Good luck with whatever you buy.

[Montgomery Scott]

The primary reason why the Grizzly is cheaper is that the Griz is made in China and the PM is made in Taiwan.

[Cary Falk]

message deleted by cary falk

[Peter Quadarella]

The jointer seems to me a fairly simple machine. I have the G0490X and while the base of the PM is more solid and some other items look a little nicer, I have a hard time imagining a jointer of the same size being worth twice as much. There's just not a whole lot to improve on. A complicated machine like a bandsaw or tablesaw, maybe I could see it.

[Marcus Ward]

I don't have this particular jointer (I have the 6, regret not buying the 8 for the longer beds), but I own 4 other very large Grizzly machines, and have never had a problem with Grizzly, they're incredible. None of this 'for the price' malarky either. Anyone who tells you they're not as good as the ones that cost twice as much is just trying to get rid of the cognitive dissonance from paying 2x as much for something that does the same thing. In addition the president of Grizzly posts on this board, and has taken matters upon himself when a problem very infrequently has arisen. I don't see the presidents of delta, powermatic, or any of those other so-called 'premium' brands here. Grizzly products are great, they stand behind them, and when savings are realized in production, they pass those along to the customer. I have some Fine Woodworking mags from 1985 here with old Griz adverts in them and the price of several machines has gone DOWN. I don't see those other guys doing that. I'll sing the praises of Grizzly all day. They're the real deal and you can take that to the bank.

[glenn bradley]

None of this 'for the price' malarky either. Anyone who tells you they're not as good as the ones that cost twice as much is just trying to get rid of the cognitive dissonance from paying 2x as much for something that does the same thing.

I hope this doesn't turn ugly but Marcus speaks true. I've had my hands on several maker's machines and the whole "Tai/Chi" argument doesn't stand as far as quality goes. There is some great stuff as well as poor coming from a lot of places and it is due to the maker's QA, not the country.

As always, these are opinions and all are of value. "Tastes Great / Less Filling" YMMV ;-)

[Cary Falk]

I dislike the term serviceable. It implies one step up from crap. I would not call PM top shelf. I have a couple of Grizzly tools and the Shop Fox version of the jointer asked about by the OP. The fit and finish is second to none. The jointer tables are flat. There wasn't any twist in the jointer fence. No adjustments were needed out of the box. The jointer works as intended. The tools came damage free. I have had other tools from other companies come damaged. I honestly don't see what throwing more money at a tool could get me. Evidently guitar companys like Fender, Gibson, Suhr, Taylor, Goodall, etc. can't either.

[Rod Sheridan]

I hope this doesn't turn ugly but Marcus speaks true. I've had my hands on several maker's machines and the whole "Tai/Chi" argument doesn't stand as far as quality goes. There is some great stuff as well as poor coming from a lot of places and it is due to the maker's QA, not the country.

As always, these are opinions and all are of value. "Tastes Great / Less Filling" YMMV ;-)

Hi Glen, I wasn't comparing Chinese/Taiwanese equipment I was comparing Taiwanese equipment to Austrian and Canadian equipment.

You are correct, it has to do with quality control and engineering, which was the focus of my post.

Pay the money, obtain the quality control and engineering.

I have equipment from each of the three countries mentioned, and the quality difference is due to the price.

Felder/Hammer and General produce high end products at high end prices. I have a GI bandsaw, produced in Taiwan I believe, it works OK, it's not an Agganzi/MiniMax by any stretch of the imagination.

It's adequate for what I want, which is roughing out turning blanks for Diann to use on her lathe, I don't have a need for any higher capability or quality for that bandsaw.

I haven't come across any Felder or MiniMax owners who really wished that they had purchased a General International product instead, because they purchased the Felder or MiniMax because they wanted something with better quality and capabilities.

No one is knocking Grizzly, however claiming that their products are equal to much more expensive machinery is simply not true.

Don't take my word for it, purchase a Felder or MiniMax yourself and let me know what you think after you've used it for a year.

Regards, Rod.

[Marcus Ward]

No one is knocking Grizzly, however claiming that their products are equal to much more expensive machinery is simply not true.

Most definitely not! They're just as good and cost half as much! That's definitely not equal -- it's twice as good!

The test of the machine is not how nice the paint job is, it's how well it does the job it was designed to do. I guess if a person collects machines then that paint job is more important to them, me, I'm into making things out of wood. Everyone's priorities are different.

[Rod Sheridan]

Well Marcus, I guess your ownership of General and Hammer products was different than mine.

regards, Rod.

[Marcus Ward]

Rod, you're very gracious. I'm just firmly in the camp of 'I don't believe the hype'. I tend to come across a bit strong at times. I appreciate that everyone here is able to at least read what I write while ignoring the sometimes brusque manner in which it is presented.

[Matt Benton]

Function aside, the difference in resale value justifies a price difference (to a degree).

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Higher quality castings and other parts will show their value over time, need fewer repairs, etc.

That being said, I definitely wouldn't pay 100% more for the PM vs. the Grizzly. Maybe 30%...

[John Hedges]

Most definitely not! They're just as good and cost half as much! That's definitely not equal -- it's twice as good!


Um Errr.... Sorry had to stop laughing there. Are you serious. Your really telling me that you believe that the Grizzly Consumer grade products (we're talking the stuff that is value priced here and not the commercial stuff) is as good as the competition which is priced significantly higher. Do you really believe that given equal price anyone would select a GO490X over a PJ882HH, or a 1023 over a PM66, PM2000 or SawStop, or a Grizzly bandsaw over an MM, Laguna or Agazanni.

I am not saying Grizzly value based products are bad, nor am I saying don't think he should buy one. I think they are great for the home hobby shop that cant or doesn't want to pay the higher prices. Since this is a big purchase and likely the last jointer he is going to buy, I am only saying that he should compare for himself to see if the price difference is justified to him, but there is a difference, in both price and what you get, and it goes much deeper than a paint job. It goes down to the quality of the motor, the quality of the castings, the quality of the bearings and pulleys, and to what tolerances the parts are machined to.

Sorry to get my hackles up a bit but this kind of advice irks me somewhat. I remember asking about this jointer when I bought it and several people told me this same advice as your giving, and I bought on that advice. I am now left with a purchase I am stuck with for a looooonnnnngggg time and not satisfied with. Why am I disappointed? not because it was not worth what I paid for it but because I thought I was getting something on the caliber of a PM or a General, and it is not.

[Marcus Ward]

I think they are great for the home hobby shop that cant or doesn't want to pay the higher prices.

Hobby shops:

Collings Guitars
Santa Cruz Guitar Company
Tyler Guitars
James Goodall Guitars
John Monteleone
Tom Anderson Guitarworks
G&L Guitars
Taylor Guitars
Suhr Guitars
Gibson Guitars
Fender Custom Shop

Perhaps your complaints are in reference to older grizzly machines, but their current stuff is top notch.

[Matt Benton]

Marcus,

Could you elaborate on the last point you made? Most people consider "hobby shops" to refer to an individual that does woodworking primarily for his/her own fullfilment...

[Dan Lee]

My 2 cents on wheels vs levers
I prefer a hand wheel on the out feed side. After I've adjusted the knives to equal height I'm looking to adjust the bed to be a couple thou below the knives and I have better control with a wheel than lever.
As far as infeed goes I don't look for a lot of precise control so doesn't much matter I've had both.

[John Hedges]

Hobby shops:

Collings Guitars
Santa Cruz Guitar Company
Tyler Guitars
James Goodall Guitars
John Monteleone
Tom Anderson Guitarworks
G&L Guitars
Taylor Guitars
Suhr Guitars
Gibson Guitars
Fender Custom Shop

Perhaps your complaints are in reference to older grizzly machines, but their current stuff is top notch.

I think you missed my point

I can tell you that managers and those with the power to make the purchasing decisions in companies often make them based on what cheapest, or where they get the best deal and not necessarily with what is nicest to use, especially in the case of a large company. As companies get smaller and especially when you get down to the one man shop these choices become more based on what the individual would like to use balanced with cost. All I am saying is that I think the best idea is for the OP to make that comparison with actual machines to judge for himself what that balance point is. Would you disagree with that?

[Andy Casiello]

The test of the machine is not how nice the paint job is, it's how well it does the job it was designed to do. I guess if a person collects machines then that paint job is more important to them, me, I'm into making things out of wood. Everyone's priorities are different.

Marcus - I have to strongly disagree with you!

The paint job on my Grizzly gear is at least as good as the paint on my Delta USA bandsaw!

[Marcus Ward]

Hahah I agree. The paint on all my Grizzly products looks great.

[Scott Myers]

Easy fellas. I think we all agree we each like what we like. I said the following in my earlier post:

"In the end, you just have to go look at a machine and judge for yourself. What may be great for you might be junk for me. It's all in your expectations."

That really is the bottom line. That's why some of us think Chevys are great, others Ford, others Honda, others Mercedes, etc. Those that love their particular brand of choice have their reasons are going to defend them to the death. It all comes down to personal experiences, preferences and expectations. Arguing which is good and which is not is pointless and too subjective. We all have to judge for ourselves.

[John Pennisi]

Well I pulled the trigger on the G0490X and already have it in shop and mostly assembled. I still need to do some fine tuning and then we'll give it a go. I'm waiting on the electrical upgrade with 220v receptacles, etc. so it will be end of the week that I get to put it to the true test on some curly maple boards that have been in the rough for far too long.

After much research on this jointer and the G0453Z planer I decided to make the move on both. I also discovered that I'm less than three hours from Grizzly's Muncy, PA showroom so I took a ride down and purchased both, saving a few hundred bucks on shipping which was an added bonus. I have to say I'm anxious to try the Grizzly spiral heads; the electrician can't come soon enough.

This said, I made a conscious decision to not spend $5000 give or take on both machines together. Instead I got both for half that. And although I'm prepared for some small sacrifices in quality (if that happens to be the case) I'm also fairly confident that the machines I bought are well built and will perform at a high level for a long time to come.

Thank you again for all feedback. I'll be sure to send a follow up on my experiences with both machines once I actually use them!

[Shiraz Balolia]

Well I pulled the trigger on the G0490X and already have it in shop and mostly assembled. I still need to do some fine tuning and then we'll give it a go. I'm waiting on the electrical upgrade with 220v receptacles, etc. so it will be end of the week that I get to put it to the true test on some curly maple boards that have been in the rough for far too long.

After much research on this jointer and the G0453Z planer I decided to make the move on both. I also discovered that I'm less than three hours from Grizzly's Muncy, PA showroom so I took a ride down and purchased both, saving a few hundred bucks on shipping which was an added bonus. I have to say I'm anxious to try the Grizzly spiral heads; the electrician can't come soon enough.



John P.- thank you for the business! Timely, too as the prices are going up in January. I am sure you will get many years of pleasure from these machines and our PA gang will take good care of you should you ever have the need.

[James Williams 007]

The levers work great I set them at a comfortable depth and leave them in place.

[James Williams 007]

I have the same model except for the spiral head and I love it! Griz has great customer service!

[Andy Casiello]

Easy fellas. I think we all agree we each like what we like. I said the following in my earlier post:

"In the end, you just have to go look at a machine and judge for yourself. What may be great for you might be junk for me. It's all in your expectations."

That really is the bottom line. That's why some of us think Chevys are great, others Ford, others Honda, others Mercedes, etc.

Scott,

You also said you didn't have any Grizzly gear, and hadn't had a chance to inspect any up close - so I wasn't sure how you were able to discuss the OP's question about Grizzly quality at all.

[John Hedges]

Scott,

You also said you didn't have any Grizzly gear, and hadn't had a chance to inspect any up close - so I wasn't sure how you were able to discuss the OP's question about Grizzly quality at all.

WOW Andy that's pretty harsh. I think he was just suggesting to try to look at both machines first hand and compare for himself. I thought that was pretty good advice whether he owned Grizzly or not.

There are probably several here who posted and have Grizzly equipment but no PM equipment, and haven't seen the PM jointer the OP asks about in person. Does that negate their input as well??

[Marcus Ward]

Marcus,

Could you elaborate on the last point you made? Most people consider "hobby shops" to refer to an individual that does woodworking primarily for his/her own fullfilment...

It was sarcasm. Did you read the post that preceded it?

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, you're very gracious. I'm just firmly in the camp of 'I don't believe the hype'. I tend to come across a bit strong at times. I appreciate that everyone here is able to at least read what I write while ignoring the sometimes brusque manner in which it is presented.


I'm not sure it was graciousness, I just assumed that you had owned some Grizzly equipment along with PM/General or Felder/Hammer and were stating your observations. If you haven't owned equipment other than grizzly, then I'm very surprised at your attitude.

What I said wasn't hype, it was from owning General International equipment as well as General and Hammer, and my comments were based upon long term ownership of the GI and General equipment.

The Hammer equipment is only a year old, so I don't have any long term observations, just observations about the initial quality and performance.

I can absolutely state that the General machinery I own is better than the GI equipment, and that the Hammer is as good or better than the General.

Regards, Rod.

[Marcus Ward]

So you're saying that a board jointed on a General or Hammer is more square than a board jointed on a Grizzly? Boards sawn on a PM tablesaw are sawn more accurately than on a Grizzly? That'd be a bold statement. I set up my G1023SL to cut .022 strips to fill the frets slots in a bass guitar I was converting to fretless and every strip was perfect. Glue in, no problem. No, I don't own any hammer or felder stuff, never even seen it in person. I have used PM at friend's houses. I didn't feel they were any better.

[John Hedges]

So you're saying that a board jointed on a General or Hammer is more square than a board jointed on a Grizzly? Boards sawn on a PM tablesaw are sawn more accurately than on a Grizzly? That'd be a bold statement. I set up my G1023SL to cut .022 strips to fill the frets slots in a bass guitar I was converting to fretless and every strip was perfect. Glue in, no problem. No, I don't own any hammer or felder stuff, never even seen it in person. I have used PM at friend's houses. I didn't feel they were any better.

THATS AWESOME I never thought of it that way before.

So by your definition, since I can also make these EXACT same cuts on a bottom of the line craftsman benchtop saw as I can on an Altendorf, they must be equal in value and I could save over 100K and still have the same saw.

And since a board jointed on a Northfield jointer is no more square than a board jointed on an Harbor Freight jointer they must also be the same.

Thanks, I can't believe how much money you've saved us. BTW I think you might have overpaid for all that expensive Grizzly stuff when you could have just gone to Harbor Freight.:D

[Matt Benton]

I figure if I have anything else to say in this thread, I better do it quick...:rolleyes:

I don't think the benefits are in the quality of the output as much as in characteristics that are directly related to the machines themselves (how quickly to parts wear out, what is the resale value (and how quickly does that value decrease), features (many of which are the same in this case), etc.

[Marcus Ward]

Thanks, I can't believe how much money you've saved us. BTW I think you might have overpaid for all that expensive Grizzly stuff when you could have just gone to Harbor Freight.:D


Not really:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97040

http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-Planer/G0453

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3179

http://www.grizzly.com/products/17-Bandsaw-2-HP/G0513

Looks like I'd be money ahead.

I see your point, but the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point price point that I believe lies somewhere above Grizzly but below Felder.

[John Hedges]

I see your point, but the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point price point that I believe lies somewhere above Grizzly but below Felder.

Glad we can come to an understanding on this. I think that where that price point lies for diminishing returns is different for each of us and that there is a difference in the quality of tools which are aimed at a price point. Yours might be different than other folks, but that point is for each to decide. Glad your happy with your Green tools cause that's what's important in the end. I know I am very happy with my yellow/white/Italian tools.

[John Pennisi]

Does anyone mind explaining different methods of cleaning the oil/lube from the factory off of the cuterhead before first use? It's tricky with the spiral head because any cloth catches easily on the carbide inserts and it's difficult to get in there and get all the gunk out. How thoroughly do people do this cleaning on the spiral heads?

[Rod Sheridan]

So you're saying that a board jointed on a General or Hammer is more square than a board jointed on a Grizzly? Boards sawn on a PM tablesaw are sawn more accurately than on a Grizzly? That'd be a bold statement. I set up my G1023SL to cut .022 strips to fill the frets slots in a bass guitar I was converting to fretless and every strip was perfect. Glue in, no problem. No, I don't own any hammer or felder stuff, never even seen it in person. I have used PM at friend's houses. I didn't feel they were any better.

No, I'm saying that the Hammer Planer has zero snipe, and height repeatability accurate to 0.02mm, better than the General, and that the surface finish is superior to the General planer I owned.

The General planer was also better than the 15 inch stationary Delta planer that it replaced in surface finish, snipe and repeatability of height settings.

Now to compare the two jointers I've owned, one a General, one a Hammer, they both jointed wood very well, the only difference is in price, the 12 inch Hammer was less money than the 8 inch General, and the Hammer is quieter and has a great quick change cutterhead making knife change easy.

(Note that I've said the Hammer jointer is less expensive, this is only true because I get a planer and jointer compared to the General which was a single function machine, the Hammer planer jointer is substatially less expensive than a General jointer and planer).

I think the two jointers I owned were as square, since that would be me making the adjustments.

I can't comment on any other machinery, because I haven't owned others.

I would guess that the Grizzly 15 inch planer is probably equivalent to the Delta 15 inch planer.

If this is so, it's certainly not as high quality as the General, or the Hammer, both of which I've owned and used.

If Grizzly somehow has figured out how to make identical quality items for 1/4 of the price of others, then my hat's off to them, and I'll wind up owning some of their machinery as Felder, MiniMax, Altendorf, SCMI, and General are forced out of business.

I guess I'm most surprised that you defend Grizzly so strongly, when you don't have any benchmarks to compare them to. It makes me think that you are guilty of spreading hype, when you claim that you don't believe it.

regards, Rod.

[glenn bradley]

Oh well, I thought we might get through this without the Blind Faith element of our preferred imported beer being better than their preferred imported beer whether we've tasted it or not. This happens sometimes. Let's all take a deep breath and not get our backs up. The idea is to help the OP and I believe he has gotten a lot of good info and opinion here to sort through. I think the idea is to compare Hyundai and Toyota, not Yugo and Maserratti ;-)

[Chip Lindley]

I would not risk getting a solvent into the bearings of the cutter head. Just fire up the machine and face joint some wide wood. The shavings will catch the gunk as it is thrown off the head. Its easier to wipe the surrounding parts clean than to take your cutter head apart! You might want to make a shroud over the top of your machine to keep gunk off the ceiling when you first fire it up.

Sawdust is a great "oil dry" agent. It is cheaper than cat litter, which is much cheaper than the commercial stuff!! I have used it to dry up oil spills on my driveway for as long as I have owned a table saw!

[Marcus Ward]

I guess I'm most surprised that you defend Grizzly so strongly, when you don't have any benchmarks to compare them to. It makes me think that you are guilty of spreading hype, when you claim that you don't believe it.

Just because I don't own a powermatic doesn't mean I've never used one. And it's not hype if it's true.

Seriously, Rod, you're just going to have to accept that I am never ever going to buy into the whole pay 5x as much for a very small increase in quality. The cost has to be justified for what you're getting, and TO ME it is not justified. It obviously is to you. I defend my viewpoint, you defend yours. Hopefully the people who read them can find something valuable in them besides watching 2 guys argue over whose sports team is best. I'm done.

[John Carlo]

I bought one of the last of the American made Powermatic 8" jointers for home and it is a great machine. For school, I decided to update our 6" PM jointer and ordered the 8" Grizzly. It arrived in perfect condition and alignment and actually rivals my PM.

[Steven J Corpstein]

I have a Steel City 8" Industrial and really like it. Quality, fit and finish seemed to be a step up from all the other ones I looked at in the same general price range. Dead on out of the crate and it came with a very good manual explaining calibration for us fanatics.

[Ned Ladner]

Steven,

I'm considering the Steel City 8" Industrial jointer. Which others did you look at and what were the differences that you noted? In general, how do you think Steel City machinery compares to Delta, Jet, Powermatic, etc.?

[Paul Coffin]

I own the grizzly G0586 8" jointer, the G0514X bandsaw and the G0543 planer. The all have worked well for me and so far I have never had to use Grizzly's factory service (knock on wood). The G0586 jointer is a 2HP version with straight blades and dovetailed ways, it is not a parallelogram design. The only times I have found the machine wanting is when I need to face a board that is 8 inches or over. The 2 HP moter has never strugled for me. The spiral cutterhead would be nice, but if I had to make a choice between spiral head or getting a wider jointer say 10 " 0r 12" I would go for the wider jointer first even if it only had straight knives.

Paul