Ldd?

[Brian Knop]

I keep reading about soaking wood in LDD.What is the ratio of water to LDD and how long you soak it?

Thanks Brian

[John Miliunas]

I'm not expert here, Brian, but I have used that method a couple times, so far. I'm diluting it with water, 1:1 and leave it submerged overnight. I definitely helped with the Black Locust I worked up and appears to have helped stabilize some Spalted Maple I tried. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge of the process will chime in with more expert advice.... :cool:

[Tyler Howell]

I didn't Get my secret decoder ring when I joined SMC. What is LDD??:confused:

While I'm asking More about CA glue please??:(
TX in advance.

[Dominic Greco]

LDD or Liquid Dish Detergent is the name used to describe a soaking regimen first attributed to a turner named Ron Kent (http://www.ronkent.com/) from Hawaii. Ron was disgusted with the standard air drying regimen for bowl making. This requires that the turned rough turn a bowl, wrap and/or coat the bowl, and wait several months for the bowl to dry.

Ron found that by soaking his roughed out blanks in a mixture of plain old dish washing detergent (like Dove or Ajax), the blanks would stabilize and he'd be able to final turn a piece in a fraction of the time it normally took. When normally finicky wood like Madrone Burl, Apple or Cherry was soaked, he noticed a marked improvement in the blank's ability to resist cracking and checking.

Ron's investigation into this was prompted by his wanting a replacement for PPG (Polyethylene Glycol I believe). This somewhat nasty chemical was first used by Ed Molthrup (?) to help hasten the drying out of roughed out bowls.

The procedure, as I understand it
A bowl is roughed out. Then it is immersed in the LDD mix and is soaked for several days. After this, it is taken out, and allowed to drip off. Then it is allowed to air dry for the same amount of time it has been soaked. The bowl can then be turned to final thickness.

From what I understand of the chemistry of this, the soap as a surfactant and displaces and "pushes" the water out of the wood.

Several years ago, my good friend, neighbor, and mentor the late Phil Wall, collaborated with Ron and wrote an article for the AWA magazine. I believe if you check the index on the AWA Site (http://www.woodturner.org/), you can see what issue that was.

I have used an LDD mix of 50% water & 50% detergent with moderate success. But I hasten to add that this is not a "quick drying bowl" scheme. It conditions the wood so that it releases the moisture more quickly, without checking. You still get quite a bit of movement. All of the bowls I've turned from LDD treated blanks, never cracked, but went oval after several days.

I have since dismantled my LDD setup in favor of a more traditional approach. I find that my customers prefer bowls that don't turn into ovals!

[John Miliunas]

I didn't Get my secret decoder ring when I joined SMC. What is LDD??:confused:

While I'm asking More about CA glue please??:(
TX in advance.

No decoder ring???!!! :confused: Gee, someone must've dropped the ball, because I'm pretty sure *everyone* else at SMC got their rings! :D Anyhow, you needn't concern yourself with LDD. You guys in the flat world will have no use for it, other than for washing dishes. :D (Liquid Dishwashing Detergent!)

CA: Cyanoacrylate Glue . For most, that translates to "Super Glue". Just another "tool", primarily used by folks creating stuff on the spinny things. Some use it to glue the tubes for pens, as finish for the pens, soaking cracked areas on bowl and vessel turnings, etc... I also find it's GREAT in the winter time, when one's skin starts to crack from dryness, particularly on fingertips and such. Put some on the cracked area and it acts as a super protectant and actually helps heel the wound. Though not the same formulation, it was originally developed for the medical world! :)

Now, you had better go find out what happened to your decoder ring. Maybe one of the neighborhood kids decided they had more use for it and hijacked it from your mailbox! :rolleyes: :cool:

Edit: Hmmmm...Dom must've been hitting the "send" as I was still typing! Great explanation on the LDD, BTW! :cool:

[Ken Salisbury]

I have been experimenting with LDD lately but the jury is still out on the success/failure rate of what I have tried.

I put bandsawn blanks in an LDD/water solution of 1 part LDD to 2 parts water in a 5 gallon bucket for 3 or 4 days. I remove the blank and rough turn to a wall thickness of 1/10th the bowl diameter. I place the blank back in the solution for a couple more days, remove it and finish turning, sanding (bowl is extremely wet at this time and it wet sands nicely. I remove from the lathe and allow it to dry on the shelf for a few days after which I remount, finish sand and apply the appropriate finish. So far - so good with this method. I have done a mesquite bowl and a couple cherry ones this way and they are still looking very nice after a couple weeks.

I have a spalted maple, lidded bowl drying at the present time and I think the result of that experiment might be the proof of the pudding. The lid is very thin on the outer edges and it seems to be drying out very well (2 days so far).

I will post pics at a later date to show either the success (or failure :D ) of my experimentation.

[Jim Becker]

Some folks have reported that the LDD process will muddy the grain on certain woods, so it's probably a good idea to experiment with the technique on each of the species you normally work with to insure you find the results acceptable. This is only one of many ways to help control cracking and checking and may not be what you want for particular pieces. Keep in mind that I'm a third party here as I do not use this method and it could just be hearsay. But I've seen multiple posts in various places to this effect, including at least one this week on WoW.

[Brian Knop]

Thanks to everyone for there time and information.

Brian

[Kurt Aebi]

I wonder if the acidity of the Liquid Dish Detergent may have any contributions to discoloring and the "muddying". In taxidermy, I always use DAWN dishwashing liquid for degreasing the raw hide and it is the only dish soap that I know of that is truly Ph neutral. I haven't tried this LDD method, but just from the taxidermy issues regarding dish soap, I thought I'd pass on the Ph neutrality issue with DAWN. Maybe the Ph has nothing to do with anything, but then again - maybe it does.

Just my $0.02 for what it's worth.

[Bob Hovde]

In previous threads about LDD, I seem to recall that the cheapest COSTCO orange-color LDD works best. That's what I've used and it seems to work. (BTW, if you leave a blank in the LDD over the winter, be prepared for some really gross mold growing on the mixture surface! :eek:) Besides that small error, what I did was turn green blanks to approximate shape and then soak them overnight. With the soap in them, they turned really nicely the next day (mostly cherry). They dried out while I was sanding, and I put tung oil on them immediately - followed a couple of days later by buffing. These bowls/vessels were all about 6" across and 1/8" thick. I got a few small cracks near the pith while turning, (I liked the knots in the sides) but CA and sawdust fixed them. Since I'm a begining turner, I can't tell you if this method is better than any other, but it worked for me.

Bob

[Greg Heppeard]

Hey, can I get a new ring?? I think mine has dyslexia...it came up with DLD. I think it was trying to tell me something about myself. (dumb lazy dude)

[John Miliunas]

Hey, can I get a new ring?? I think mine has dyslexia...it came up with DLD. I think it was trying to tell me something about myself. (dumb lazy dude)

Greg, the ring is fine. It just needs a new battery. :D :cool:

[larry merlau]

Greg, the ring is fine. It just needs a new battery. :D :cool:
mr wisconsin-- did you happen to measure your shaft space needs on your dial awidth dado like you mentioned to me a while back? i have 1.25 inches of shaft available on the old crafstman just a freindly reminder:)

[Greg Heppeard]

Guess that old 6 volt from my old John Deere ran down again. Sure is ruff wearing the ring with that battery strapped to my back. :eek:

[John Miliunas]

mr wisconsin-- did you happen to measure your shaft space needs on your dial awidth dado like you mentioned to me a while back? i have 1.25 inches of shaft available on the old crafstman just a freindly reminder:)

Larry, check your PM's.... :) :cool:

[John Miliunas]

Guess that old 6 volt from my old John Deere ran down again. Sure is ruff wearing the ring with that battery strapped to my back. :eek:

Eeeeeek! :eek: No wonder why the thing isn't working correctly! It's supposed to be a 12VDC, deep cycle, marine battery! :D And what did you do with that nice 4-wheel dolley we sent along, so you can cart it around with you? :confused: :mad: Whatever. I think Tyler has an extra battery he was going to use for his boat. I'll have him send that to you and he can just rely on his sails! ;) :cool:

[Chris Padilla]

I wonder if the acidity of the Liquid Dish Detergent may have any contributions to discoloring and the "muddying". In taxidermy, I always use DAWN dishwashing liquid for degreasing the raw hide and it is the only dish soap that I know of that is truly Ph neutral. I haven't tried this LDD method, but just from the taxidermy issues regarding dish soap, I thought I'd pass on the Ph neutrality issue with DAWN. Maybe the Ph has nothing to do with anything, but then again - maybe it does.

Just my $0.02 for what it's worth.
Kurt,

Soap is typically basic and not acidic. One way to tell an acid from a base is if it feels slick on your fingers. Well, at least this is what I recall from chemistry class way back.... :)

I wonder if people are trying to draw water out from wood, why not soak the thing in salt or salty water? Those of you close to the ocean, toss a few blanks in and see what happens! :)

[Mark Stutz]

I too have been playing around with LDD, since I don't have a stock of dried roughed ou blanks sitting on the shelf. I found that a needed to soak for at least 48 hours. I'm not sure if "muddy" is the right term, but I do get the impression the some of the grain lines "blacken" a litle bit. I'm rough turning some blanks from the same tree and treating them more traditionally, so a few months from now I'll let you know about the comparison.

Mark

[Tyler Howell]

Dom and John,

Thanks Guys, I usually come to the net to play. Your edjimicatin me.:eek:
Tough job, but your gettin through;)