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Eric Allen
11-06-2008, 12:46 PM
I've had a pretty good customer over the past year just start asking for artwork, not a request I get much of. I understand it has to do with their ISO compliance of having accurate drawings for historical purposes. They don't have documentation via their usual CAD drawings (pretty much unusable in a laser because of the lines it generates), so they're asking for mine. I explained that handing out our artwork is very similar to them handing me their electronic part schematics in detail. I sent them 72 DPI bitmaps, but apparently that went badly when they tried to put them into the paperwork. While I'm sure I'll come up with a way to modify the artwork and still preserve it being difficult for someone to just slap into a laser, anyone have any ideas of how to best to do that reasonably quickly? I'd hate for them to think I'm spending all my time thinking the worst, great people over there, but I'm not one to fail to protect my business interests either, it's not my first go-round. I had considered maybe offering full detail in exchange for a certain dollar amount of contract over the next year, that would serve both our interests.....certainly more fun than modifying artwork:) It's been my approach in the past to handle things that way, so neither party gets hosed and both are served by the accomodation. Any input appreciated:)

Scott Shepherd
11-06-2008, 12:56 PM
I've worked plenty with ISO9000 and was on an implementation team for it years ago. I never ever recall seeing anything that would cause that statement to be accurate. It's not their artwork, it's yours, so there is no requirement to put someone else's work in their process to that level of detail. If their procedures call for it then someone there is clueless on what's actually needed in their procedures.

Doug Griffith
11-06-2008, 1:18 PM
2 theories.

If vector:
I'm not sure this will work but how about opening your files in a CAD program and exporting as DXF without polyarcs. Then reopen in Corel and saving as a cdr. Or some other process that breaks all your lines and curves into segments. This won't make a big difference to digitally printing but be a royal pain to vector.

If bitmap:
Save your work as high res dithered bitmaps at some odd resolution like 2345. Since lasers output at fixed DPIs and dot size the art will have to be re-res'd at some point to something it can use like 600DPI and all sorts of artifacts will appear. It shouldn't affect digital printing too much since they use variable dot size and are higher resolution.

Cheers,
Doug

Brian Robison
11-06-2008, 1:37 PM
What about a watermark?

Angus Hines
11-06-2008, 1:43 PM
You could save it as a PDF and change the permissions and password protect the permission.

Kim Vellore
11-06-2008, 1:53 PM
If it is your art work and they want the original resolution you should sell it to them at the price that you think it is worth, with no rights to distribute if you want it that way. It is up to them if they want to buy it. They can document it with a lower resolution and with your contact info. if they want to.


Kim

Eric Allen
11-06-2008, 2:14 PM
I've worked plenty with ISO9000 and was on an implementation team for it years ago. I never ever recall seeing anything that would cause that statement to be accurate. It's not their artwork, it's yours, so there is no requirement to put someone else's work in their process to that level of detail. If their procedures call for it then someone there is clueless on what's actually needed in their procedures.

I've forgotten what very little I knew about ISO, so the input is appreciated:) I think they are ISO 9001 if that makes a difference? I'm so very rusty at that process:) We have to submit a Certificate of Compliance with each order we send them, if that provides any clues. Their stated purpose is that they need to have correct documentation so they have a record for inspections and adoptions to a later product. They say they need a correct drawing set for product lines in case something should happen to myself or my contact, which also makes business sense. Normally they have their own CAD stuff that I use for reference, though it's useless in the laser so I have to recreate it. Conversion to .dxf didn't produce a true image, it's all lines with no fill, but that wouldn't work if it's for inspection purposes, so this could end up being interesting:)

Eric Allen
11-06-2008, 2:19 PM
What about a watermark?

I had considered that, not sure how much of a pain those are to remove. The more the merrier for this application, of course:) Since they are metal parts, cermark wouldn't take at those low powers, so the watermark wouldn't actually be a problem in a laser that reads gray scale.

Eric Allen
11-06-2008, 2:24 PM
2 theories.

If vector:
I'm not sure this will work but how about opening your files in a CAD program and exporting as DXF without polyarcs. Then reopen in Corel and saving as a cdr. Or some other process that breaks all your lines and curves into segments. This won't make a big difference to digitally printing but be a royal pain to vector.

If bitmap:
Save your work as high res dithered bitmaps at some odd resolution like 2345. Since lasers output at fixed DPIs and dot size the art will have to be re-res'd at some point to something it can use like 600DPI and all sorts of artifacts will appear. It shouldn't affect digital printing too much since they use variable dot size and are higher resolution.

Cheers,
Doug

The parts have vector and bitmap type functions in them, so that could be interesting:) I don't have a full access cad program, I think ours is limited to 150k or so, we only use it for cutting gears, but it's an interesting idea:) I mainly want the image to be what they are looking for. Accurate enough to do inspections of defect from, but impossible to laser from without going through pretty much all the steps I do to create it. Then, at least, I'm on a level playing field if someone less scrupulous than my contact decides to try and shop it around:)

Brian Robison
11-06-2008, 3:23 PM
Eric,
I guess I got confused (FIRST TIME EVER):D
If they just need a drawing then you would have one with the watermark, right?
Or, just shut off the print function part in the layers before you send it to the laser. You probably know but, under object manager there is a pencil, and eyeball and a printer. They will shut off and turn on the chosen item's
ability to be edited, seen or printed. So you should be able to turn off a bitmap/ watermark.

George D Gabert
11-06-2008, 3:49 PM
You are making your own artwotk to their engineering drawings. Their engineering drawings are the gospel as far as inspection and product acceptance.

The files you have generated are considered tooling / programming information for your manufacturing tool / process. The finished parts are not accepted to your machining code but to their drawings.

Therefore you should not have to supply your tooling information to them. The next vendor will have to determine the tooling information they will need to fabricate the next parts to.

Regards
GDG

Dave Johnson29
11-06-2008, 3:53 PM
I explained that handing out our artwork is very similar to them handing me their electronic part schematics in detail.


I am probably missing something here, but why not just send them high quality paper-prints of the artwork instead of files? They can scan those to attach to their ISO docs.

Failing that, charge them handsomely for the laser-files. I used to write software for a living and would charge 10 to 50 times the executable price if the customer wanted the source code. Seems like a similar thing.

Dee Gallo
11-06-2008, 4:12 PM
I am probably missing something here, but why not just send them high quality paper-prints of the artwork instead of files? They can scan those to attach to their ISO docs.

Failing that, charge them handsomely for the laser-files. I used to write software for a living and would charge 10 to 50 times the executable price if the customer wanted the source code. Seems like a similar thing.

I'm with Dave, there is no reason for them to need your original laser files unless they plan to use them on a laser. For documentation, they should not have to include production-line details. A printed line drawing should suffice. If I contract to do design work for someone and they require the computer files (to send to a printshop, for example) I sell it to them outright. Otherwise, I send them camera ready color seps they can copy all they want, but they don't have the whole thing on one sheet. If they insist on a computer file, send them a PDF.

Michael Kowalczyk
11-06-2008, 6:26 PM
Eric,
BE CAREFUL!!!! When some one asks for files like that it usually means that they are shopping for someone else or they may want to get a laser and do it in house if they have enough volume to justify it. Ask yourself why haven't they asked for this before?

Like someone posted earlier, you created your template from their specs so it is part of your tooling and to their standards otherwise they would not have excepted them.

You worked hard to create the usable drawing so I would think that if they absolutely need it that it would be worth at least 6 months worth of work that you have done for them. Remember once they have them you may have drawn your competiter's file. You have already certified it and if an inspection is needed you have them on file. IMHO I think that should suffice but I don't do ISO 9001 work. You may want to check with the ISO guidleines.

http://www.praxiom.com/iso-9001.htm

Not sure but you should check what the different requirements are for you as a vendor and they as the buyer.

With the way the Economy is right now business' are trying to cut costs or cut jobs. Patents, copyrights, non disclosure, non compete and a host of other documents are hard to enforce on smaller items against a bigger business. Most ethical business' that I have had a C & D (Cease and Desist) sent to them have honored them (usually because they did not know it was patented and someone asked them to copy mine and removed the patent stickers) but the pirates don't care because they know it cost's 20-30K and up to take them to court. So they are banking that you don't sue them.

Doug Griffith
11-06-2008, 6:48 PM
Another alternative would be to provide hard copies of the art. 8 1/2 x 11 inch print outs should be good enough for their ISO compliance. If you are worried that they will be scanned, print at about 90% opacity with a line screen so moire will be introduced. Tell them that 100% opacity will cost them.

Cheers,
Doug

Eric Allen
11-06-2008, 6:50 PM
Eric,
I guess I got confused (FIRST TIME EVER):D
If they just need a drawing then you would have one with the watermark, right?
Or, just shut off the print function part in the layers before you send it to the laser. You probably know but, under object manager there is a pencil, and eyeball and a printer. They will shut off and turn on the chosen item's
ability to be edited, seen or printed. So you should be able to turn off a bitmap/ watermark.
Nah, you were right on track initially:) The reason a watermark may not be of any use in this situation is that if they took it to another laser printer or started doing it in-house, a watermark image wouldn't produce a strong enough image to burn into the cermark and corrupt the final print, making it not work as a security thing. See, you were right all along:)

Joseph deCroy
11-06-2008, 7:04 PM
I understand it has to do with their ISO compliance of having accurate drawings for historical purposes.

As I recall, ISO has nothing to do with "historical purposes." It's all about the "S" (standards). Basically, ISO a set of standards, which assist in providing guidance for management practices. Internal ISO documentation describes how process are carried out (start to finish) and what procedures/steps are followed in order to resolve problems or issues that arise.

I would think that in your case your customer's ISO documentation does not need to contain the actual art work, but does need to describe the internal processes related to the art work and the processes followed when working with your company.

Furthermore, consider that their own electronic part schematics would not be included directly in the ISO documentation. The customer or auditor does not want to see the schematics, but they do want to know where the schematics are kept and certain processes concerning development, usage, storage, retrieval, etc of the schematics (same can be said for your art work).

Eric Allen
11-07-2008, 1:09 AM
Eric,
BE CAREFUL!!!! When some one asks for files like that it usually means that they are shopping for someone else or they may want to get a laser and do it in house if they have enough volume to justify it. Ask yourself why haven't they asked for this before?

Like someone posted earlier, you created your template from their specs so it is part of your tooling and to their standards otherwise they would not have excepted them.

You worked hard to create the usable drawing so I would think that if they absolutely need it that it would be worth at least 6 months worth of work that you have done for them. Remember once they have them you may have drawn your competiter's file. You have already certified it and if an inspection is needed you have them on file. IMHO I think that should suffice but I don't do ISO 9001 work. You may want to check with the ISO guidleines.

http://www.praxiom.com/iso-9001.htm

Not sure but you should check what the different requirements are for you as a vendor and they as the buyer.

With the way the Economy is right now business' are trying to cut costs or cut jobs. Patents, copyrights, non disclosure, non compete and a host of other documents are hard to enforce on smaller items against a bigger business. Most ethical business' that I have had a C & D (Cease and Desist) sent to them have honored them (usually because they did not know it was patented and someone asked them to copy mine and removed the patent stickers) but the pirates don't care because they know it cost's 20-30K and up to take them to court. So they are banking that you don't sue them.

The contact I have with the company has never given me reason to doubt his word, if anything he seems as straight forward and honest as I am. My concern lies more with others that I don't know, but the net effect is the same. The main impression I'm avoiding is that I'm being adversarial about the issue, hopefully one or more of the suggestions here will work out for them too. Thanks for the link, I'll have to get out the toothpicks and see if I can get through it:) I've considered offering them the historical artwork in exchange for a contract for the same value of work I've done for them this year for '09, there's no layout on their part now, it's ultimately a value added proposition for them and I get a good idea of next year's minimum projection from that particular customer. There's always a good solution, assuming both sides at least consider the other's interests:)

Thanks to all for the help, and if anyone feels inspired, I'm still watching:)

Mitchell Andrus
11-07-2008, 7:25 AM
Photographers keep thier negatives. That's the way it is. The client paid for the finished product, not the interim steps taken to get to it.

That said... my dad used to store his client's artwork (he is a silk screen printer). His attorney said that if he charged for storage, he'd be responsible for it's care and possible replacement. If he didn't charge for it, he'd be OK in the event of it's loss.

Just make it clear that "art" and derivitive work product remains your property and that the client is buying only the stuff shown on the invoice.

Tom Delaney
11-07-2008, 9:09 AM
Is there a need to trademark the artwork? That way if they want to use it for anything, they would need your permission?

Ed Peters
11-07-2008, 9:16 AM
with regard to the ISO concerns. With the exception of a few format considerations, they, and anybody else who are ISO registered or ISO compliant, wrote their own rules by which they do business. All they need do is revise the pertinant section to relieve their own problem.

Secondly, I would be of the opinion that generating an image for use on their parts should be a seperate line item on the Purchase Order. The cost shopuld be sufficient to cover ALL your time spent in creating, approving and outputting. You may, as a result of the amount of business you do with this client, elect to credit this amount but they will have no way of appreciating the cost of your efforts if you don't spell it out for them.

My Opinion
Ed

Scott Challoner
11-07-2008, 10:19 AM
Did they elaborate as to why the 72 DPI bitmap didn't work? If they tried to blow it up to fit an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet it might have gotten too grainy to be useful. Maybe you can scale it up so it fits their instruction without any further manipulation. After that, all they should have to do is stamp it with a red "For Reference Only" and their covered.

Scott Challoner
11-07-2008, 10:43 AM
One more thing.... Has anyone suggested an NDA? You can find Non-Disclosure Agreement templates online. At least that way you have some legal recourse if they share your information.

Eric Allen
11-07-2008, 10:48 AM
Is there a need to trademark the artwork? That way if they want to use it for anything, they would need your permission?

A trademark would be a tricky proposition since at least one part of it is their own logo. With some parts I get a CAD rendering of what they'd like it to look like, I then go in and figure out approximately what font they used, overlay, correct for size (weird font sizes like 5.3 and such at times:) ) and generally redo any logo work because all the cad drawings come through with a boatload of issues. If I didn't redo everything, the laser would take 10 minutes to make a 3 minute part:) A lot of time is spent optimizing to save them laser time as well. In this case, these were early parts and we didn't have a rendering from them if I remember correctly.

Scott Myers
11-07-2008, 11:00 AM
While not into engraving myself, I've been working the Industrial world for years and dealt with ISO both from a purchasing and selling stantpoint. It is known that original artwork is valuable property. You just can't ask for someone's artwork and expect to get it if it has value (Especially if it is key to the product being bought/sold) or one could use it to shop suppliers. You need to stand your ground and explain that. This is a reasonable expectation to NOT get someone's artwork for free. If your customer doesn't understand that or acts like they don't, either they are lying or just not very business savvy.

Now if they continue to stand their ground, you have a couple of other choices. You could simply sell them the artwork, but at such a high price that they shudder and recoil. This type of thing usually doesn't do much for the business relationship however. The other thing you could do is that a non-competition agreement could be signed by them that precludes them from sharing the artwork with anyone in any way or form with the penalty being a very hefty payment to you, well into 5 figures, perhaps 6, plus damages. It just depends upon what the financial loss would be if you were shopped on your work. Understand you have to consider how such agreements really work when they are breached, as it requires a lawyer and years of litigation to ever get the penalty monies. So for 2 or 3 years, you are just out the cash & busienss and you can expect litigation expenses into 5 figures.

The other fear they may have is what happens if you drop off the face of the earth? Is there a busniess plan in place to replace the running of your business? If not, then perhaps upon the dissolution of your business, the artwork could become their property via your will or trust executor. If the business will remain (As in a corporation), then they have assurance that things will continue without you being around.

The other thing one would have to ask themselves in this situation is how hard would it be for them to take your physical work that is done and have someone copy it and create their own artwork in the process. It is generally very easy today with digital cameras, photoshop and all the other digital tools available. What would that development cost be? How much time and effort would it take to do this? Is this a reality in your business? If this is done easily, then your not out much by sharing your artwork, but I do understand. I wouldn't want to do it either. Keeping the business in this case comes down to your relationship with the people of that company and keeping the purchasing and engineering influences close. Frankly, I've never held onto business for more than 5-10 years before I had to combat pricing competition due to someone else copying my work. That's just life in the big city, unfortunately.

Be Careful!

Eric Allen
11-07-2008, 11:09 AM
One more thing.... Has anyone suggested an NDA? You can find Non-Disclosure Agreement templates online. At least that way you have some legal recourse if they share your information.

It would be a tricky issue since at least part of what I do involves the company logo. Fundamentally they are sharing their own info, just my setup and redesign work. I redid their logo from scratch, their copies weren't laser ready and I would feel funny using someone else's work in any case (not knowing the source, it could even be one of you guys:) ), so at least I'm on ethically solid ground there. The hardest part of any legal protection scheme is generally catching it happening. Unless it went to someone I know that knew the company I was doing work for, the odds of finding out would be a bit slim.

Dave Johnson29
11-07-2008, 11:09 AM
The other thing you could do is that a non-competition agreement could be signed by them that precludes them from sharing the artwork with anyone


Hi Scott,

You make some good points esecially the Will issue. The problem with the non-competition agreement is that it needs to be drawn up by a Lawyer (cost) and then actioned if they flaunt it. It could take years and 10s of thousands of dollars for satisfaction.

As I suggested earlier, far better to just provide quality paper copies of the artwork if it is for ISO documentation. If this offends or affects the business relationship then so be it.

If they are not being entirely truthful and hoping to get his artwork to use for themselves or provide to a lower-cost supplier, he is going to lose them as a client anyway.

Just my $0.02 worth after a lifetime in business. ;)

Eric Allen
11-07-2008, 11:12 AM
Did they elaborate as to why the 72 DPI bitmap didn't work? If they tried to blow it up to fit an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet it might have gotten too grainy to be useful. Maybe you can scale it up so it fits their instruction without any further manipulation. After that, all they should have to do is stamp it with a red "For Reference Only" and their covered.

Assuming I understand correctly, they did more than one conversion, I'm not sure why. They want a part that is to scale with the data, so I sent a 72dpi to scale, though the conversion in Corel did deviate the size by about .003 for some reason. They are overlaying the data on a part schematic. I don't have any way that I can see to directly create a PDF of the part with the data, unless I'm missing something in X3.

Michael Kowalczyk
11-07-2008, 12:13 PM
The contact I have with the company has never given me reason to doubt his word, if anything he seems as straight forward and honest as I am. My concern lies more with others that I don't know, but the net effect is the same. The main impression I'm avoiding is that I'm being adversarial about the issue, hopefully one or more of the suggestions here will work out for them too. Thanks for the link, I'll have to get out the toothpicks and see if I can get through it:) I've considered offering them the historical artwork in exchange for a contract for the same value of work I've done for them this year for '09, there's no layout on their part now, it's ultimately a value added proposition for them and I get a good idea of next year's minimum projection from that particular customer. There's always a good solution, assuming both sides at least consider the other's interests:)

Thanks to all for the help, and if anyone feels inspired, I'm still watching:)
Hey Eric,
I like the '09 contract idea. My post was very cautionary because you were kinda questioning their motive for wanting the artwork when it sounds like it was not requested before. When dealing with larger Companies, in my experience, the contact person very rarely signs the check, has limited authorization and final approval is higher up the chain. I try to deal with the decision maker (Pres, VP of Sales, GM, etc...) when ever possible and PUT IT IN WRITING so the the word game of "Telephone"** is not played. Ultimately you need to have a "Win Win" situation and until you feel comfortable giving them your artwork "They Win".

I lost two 20K+ deals this year because someone with limited authority contracted with us for our product but when it came time to pay they through in a demand for other paper work to be signed and we did not feel comfortable with it and said No. Believe me I would have liked to of had them but not by a "Win Lose" deal.

Many good ideas are being posted and I hope you can decide which one works for you and them.

**For those of you that may not remember, Telephone was the game that you sit in a circle and the 1st person says a statement or something to the person next to them and by the time it goes around the circle it rarely resembles what it started out as:confused:.