Dust Collector How-To???

[Jim VanBramer]

I just picked up a 2hp dust collector for my small garage shop. I plan on (atleast for the time being, until I get the layout squared away) just moving it between machines. It comes with a 5" port, that has a two-way 4" fitting attached to it. What I'm wondering is this ... am I better off just plugging one of those holes and running 4" out to the machine, or should I take the fitting off and run 5" out to the end and then step it down to 4" (or does it even make a difference)? Anyone out there have any advice (that's a loaded question, I know! :eek: )?
Thanks in advance. Jim

[Brian Hale]

I've got the Bridgewood 2hp DC and the same 5" / dual 4" wye. I keep 1 4" hose on the TS and the other on the jointer. I put a blast gate on each side of the wye and hooked the hoses to them. This works very good for the jointer but i need to seal up some holes in the TS near the top for better dust control. As is, it'll suck up the chips very well. I can run a 15" board thru the planer taking an 1/8" cut and the DC has no trouble keeping up running a 4" hose. Thats a LOT of chips!

I've read that 5" is better but i'm not sure you'd gain anything unless you ran 5" all the way to the tool and made a 5" port in the tool. Even then i would'nt expect much improvement.

If you go with permament pipes, 5" is the way to go and then have 4"to each machine.
Brian :)

[Chris Padilla]

Brian, you might be surprised how much improvment you get but if already seems adequate, you might be right. Think about the increase in area going from 4" diameter to 5" diameter. That is like 50%.

[Jack Wood]

I have a 2hp DC from Harborfreight and I use 4" pipe on everything. It will suck your shirt off! I also use this to go to my downdraft sanding box and my table saw etc. on that side of the shop. I have another t off to my lathe and radial arm saw. I know that 5" and even 6" is the prefered size for ducting but I had a lot of 4" laying around and I used it to keep my cost down.:)

[Chris Padilla]

Keep in mind the ability to suck your shirt off doesn't necessarily indicate how well a system will carry the more harmful smaller, micron like dust particles.

[Jack Wood]

True enough, but the cost to me to go up to 5" or 6" was a factor. I spent the extra money on upgrading my bags to shaker felt bags. I am a novice WWker and on a tight budget. I checked on Cyclone style DC's and got a $1900 quote from a very well known maker of them.:eek: So my $200 total cost for a 2HP DC and all the piping was a more resonable buy. I would have a great system with the Bigbrand DC but I couldn't afford wood to work with.:o I have a Dusfoe mask that I wear when working and I use hepa style(lg pleated 3M's) filters(220v blower in it) to get the rest so I feel like for the money I'm ahead of most folks I know who do this. :)

[Dale Thompson]

Brian, you might be surprised how much improvment you get but if already seems adequate, you might be right. Think about the increase in area going from 4" diameter to 5" diameter. That is like 50%.

Chris,
Yep! In fact the increase is closer to 60% than 50%. :confused: Strange but true. :)

Dale T.

[Jim VanBramer]

Chris,
Yep! In fact the increase is closer to 60% than 50%. :confused: Strange but true. :)

Dale T.

So, do I understand correctly from Dale and Chris that it would definitely be to my advantage to run 5" from the DC right up to the end of my 10 ft hose and then put on a transition piece down to 4" to attach to the various machines??

[John Miliunas]

Jim, if you can't convert equipment to 5" ports, you'd be best off running the 5" up to as *close* to the target machine as you can. Step it down to 4" at the last reasonable point closest to the machine. :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Jim, if you can't convert equipment to 5" ports, you'd be best off running the 5" up to as *close* to the target machine as you can. Step it down to 4" at the last reasonable point closest to the machine. :cool:

Jim,
It's hard to admit it but "Spring" (John Miliunas) is right. :) Unlike a shop vac, DCs are non-positive displacement air pumps. They depend on "volume" rather than suction. If the diameter reduction is significant enough, they will simply ignore that branch and allow the air to "bypass" the impeller. You SHOULD be able to go from 5" to 4" with acceptable, though reduced, results. On the other hand, if you try going from 5" to 2" or even 3", you might as well huff and puff and blow the sawdust away yourself.

Just a thought from one of the "Three Little Pigs". ;) :cool: OK - so one of the three is not so "little" anymore. :(

Dale T.

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,
Yep! In fact the increase is closer to 60% than 50%. :confused: Strange but true. :)

Dale T.
Hey, I said like 50%. :p I was doing it in my head...what can I say? I see that it is precisely 56.3% so :p :p :p on you...

Have a Great Memorial Day weekend, Dale...keep that long-tailed tucked in and tightly curled....:D

[Brian Hale]

There i go giving bad advice again... Sorry Jim


Back to lurking....

Brian

[Dale Thompson]

Hey, I said like 50%. :p I was doing it in my head...what can I say? I see that it is precisely 56.3% so :p :p :p on you...

Have a Great Memorial Day weekend, Dale...keep that long-tailed tucked in and tightly curled....:D

Chris,
Ditto on the, "Have a Great memorial Day Weekend". I just hope and pray that our BEST and BRAVEST will be able to share it with us. :)

56.25% is by "Rule of Thumb" rounded DOWN to 56.2% because the "5" is preceeded by an even number. :cool: AW - What do I know?? That is a stupid rule anyway because there are so many variables. In honoring Memorial Day, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. YOU WIN!! ;) However, if you stick your tongue out at me ONE MORE TIME, I'll be forced to change my mind. :mad:

Have a GREAT one, Chris!

Dale T.

[Chris Padilla]

Damn...I forgot I had my HP48SX to display only 3 significant figures beyond the decimal so it rounded it up... :D

[Dale Thompson]

Damn...I forgot I had my HP48SX to display only 3 significant figures beyond the decimal so it rounded it up... :D

Chris,
You guys in San Josey apparently have $$$. I hear that calquelaters go for 10 bucks - or evin MOR!! :eek: I just flip a coin, if I can borrow one from somebody. ;)

Dale T.

[Michael Sloan]

Hi Jim,

I am in the process of upgrading from a small 2 bag system to the Oneida cyclone. However, before deciding to upgrade, I but did exactly what you are contemplating with my old system. I took off the 4 inch y adaptor, and used five inch flex to connect directly to my machines. The five inch flex resulted in significantly better performance than the 4 inch that I was using perviously.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

The five inch flex resulted in significantly better performance than the 4 inch that I was using perviously.
Greatly simplified:

The reason for this improvement in performance is that dust collection is purely a matter of moving air. (It's not based on "suction") The more air you can move, the more material you can move. When you increase the area of the duct, you are providing more space for more air to fit at any given point in time. When you combine that air volume with air movement (velocity) you end up with something called CFM, or "cubic feet per minute". It's not exclusive of pressure which is why you want to know the CFM at a given static pressue to compare. (Hard to do in most cases since manufacturers routinely and consistantly "lie" about their systems or publish misleading figures. Oneida is one of the firms that pretty much is up front about it and uses independent, industry testing.) Higher SP makes for more the need of more effort to keep up the air volume at a given velocity--small duct/ports/hoods can create higher SP, which is why they are less desirable for dust collection purposes. You can't move enough air.

There are limits to what you can can do here, however. The blower on your system can only move so much air, so you don't want to increase duct size beyond where the system can move that volume of air at an acceptable velocity. If the velocity drops too much, you lose performance at a minimum and at worst, end up with plugs and other "zero collection" situations. Duct sizing is important, although you have a little wiggle room above or below the ideal. Each combination of blower and system has its own ideal duct size. Many of the 2-3hp systems typically installed for hobbiest or small pro shops do well with 6" main duct. Some require larger main ducts. For example the Oneida 2hp Component system is designed for 6" duct. The 2hp Commercial system requires 7" and the 3hp Commercial system requires 8"...at least for the main inlet and out to at least the first major branch. The blowers are optimized for this duct design. The reduction in size once you begin branching is because these larger systems can handle more than one open gate and like I mentioned above, there are limits on a system...you don't want to drop velocity too low nor introduce more air than you can move. "One person" shops can effectively utilize duct of one size, but it's not good for multiple machine situations.

There are other good resources to read about dust collection, so consider this just a simple rambling on the most basic of basics. But if you remember only one thing..."Moving air means moving chips and dust. The more you can move of the first, the more you can move of the second."

[Dale Thompson]

Hi Jim,

I am in the process of upgrading from a small 2 bag system to the Oneida cyclone. However, before deciding to upgrade, I but did exactly what you are contemplating with my old system. I took off the 4 inch y adaptor, and used five inch flex to connect directly to my machines. The five inch flex resulted in significantly better performance than the 4 inch that I was using perviously.

Mike

Mike,
"Flex" is somtimes required for hookups. However, minimize its use wherever possible. It has from four to eight times the pressure drop of PVC or metal duct - sometimes more - a LOT more! :eek: It also has more of a tendency to catch chips and "strands", thereby increasing the potential for plugging up your system. :( :mad: I know that it handy and easier to install but you also have to live with the consequences of its drawbacks. Just a thought. ;)

Dale T.

[Chris Padilla]

In a shop where most everything is on wheels and few pieces have a permanent spot, flex is the only way to go.

Believe me, if I could park my TS in the middle of the garage, it would be fantastic but no can do.... :(

[Michael Sloan]

Hi Dale,

You're right about the flex. As part of my Oneida upgrade, I am switching to a fixed pipe system. The old DC got rolled around from machine to machine, and was definitely less than optimal. I'll still use some flex since my garage shop is too small to permanently place all of my equipment, but the amount will be minimal.

Mike

[Dale Thompson]

In a shop where most everything is on wheels and few pieces have a permanent spot, flex is the only way to go.

Believe me, if I could park my TS in the middle of the garage, it would be fantastic but no can do.... :(

Chris,
However, if you spend some of that Jan Josey green and get yourself a 48' x 48' shop it won't be a problem. :cool: C'mon, you'll never miss just ONE little Beemer. :cool: ;)

Dale T.