Tools for kitchen cabinets

[Brett Nelson]

I build custom homes but I'm getting much more interested in woodworking lately and have become a more serious hobbyist lately. In order to get more familiar with various techniques I've decided to handle all the cabinetry for the home I'm currently building for myself.

The projects are as follows:


Mudroom utility sink base and laundry cabinets
Bathroom vanity/double sink and full height cabinets
Master bathroom cabinets
Kitchen cabinets

I will try to handle them in that order so that I can get better with each additional portion. They will be european style cabinets. I'm not sure what additional tools I should buy before starting. I currently have:

Bosch4100 tablesaw with gravity rise stand
Bosch 4410L dual bevel sliding compound miter
Porter Cable 694VK router
Skil SHD77M worm drive circular saw
Brad nailers
Pocket Hole Jig

Was considering getting setup with the EZ Guide System and Smart Router Kit. I was hoping that a few of you could direct me toward the more valuable and useful EZ tools/parts in accomplishing my objective. Thanks

[Denny Rice]

Buy season 20 of NYW (new yankee workshop). He did this last season what you are talking of doing. If I am not mistaken one of the first things he does in the first eposide is go over a list of tools you will need to finish this job. Hope this helps.

Denny

[Dan Lautner]

1. Cabinet saw

2. make a good cross cut sled

3. Kreg jig or Domino if you have the money.



Dan

[Mike Heidrick]

Never used your saw but if setup correctly and if you have a good blade you might be fine.

I have only done face frame cabinets. What is special about eurocabinets.

Will you get into rough cut stock from a mill? Jointer and planer if so will help.

If not and you use only sheet goods how will you edge it? Edge banding?

[Paul Greathouse]

Brett

There's at least 3 different routes you can take. You could do as Dan suggested and get a cabinet saw or your could get one of the guided saw systems Fesstool, Dewalt, Makita, EZ. Or you could use a combination of the guided saw system to break down the sheets into managable sizes and your existing tablesaw for the smaller parts.

I'm not familiar with the model numbers for the Bosch saws but if its the new portable model that I saw at the lumberyard the other day it would be good for breaking down your small parts but I would not want to break down entire sheets of plywood on it.

I have never used the other guided saw systems but I have the EZ sytem and use it for cabinet making. It is a good versatile system and in my situation it has competely taken the place of my table saw.

There is an entire forum devoted to the EZ. Look down in the manufacturers forum area for the Eurekazone/EZsmart forum for more details on the EZ.

If your going to build Euro's you will need an edge banding tool of some sort like Mike suggested to hide the plywood edges. Depending of what you do for doors you may need a planer and drum sander for processing your solid stock. If your going with raised panel doors you would need either a shaper or larger router for your panel routing. You'll find that the router you have will probably not be adequate for panel routing.

A small drill press would be handy for drilling the cup holes for the Euro hinges.

Give a few more details of what your wanting to accomplish or maybe post some pictures of something you would like to copy and we can be of more help.

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Brett, welcome to the forum. The best advice I can give is to buy some books on frameless cabinets, True 32 comes to mind.

Frameless cabinets are less forgiving than framed cabinets. The boxes have to be perfectly square. You need a saw that can produce splinter free, square and repeatable parts. Without this you will get very frustrated with the results. I havent used the EZ system, so I cannot comment on whether it is capable of those 3 things.

Im not saying it cant be done, but with your equipment it might take longer to build the cabinets than it will the house.

You didnt list any door making equipment, so I asume you will outsource these. Why not out source the boxes also? A well equiped shop will have all the peices cut, banded and the system holes drilled in about 3 hours.

Please dont take my post the wrong way, im not trying to discourage you. I just know how boring and unrewarding building boxes are ( nobody cares about the boxes). I think the smart thing would be to build the cabinets in the mud room first and see how they turn out.

[Dan Bowman]

Hi Brett - Eight months ago I was where you are now. I opted for the EZ system, and now my Bosch table saw sits in the corner collecting dust. There are somethings I don't like about the EZ system, such as the fence, but generally I'm happy with it. Having said that, I echo the advice about getting the box panels cut and shipped to you. They will be dead on, and not that much more expensive than doing it yourself. If you're doing this for a living, it probably makes sense.

[David Giles]

Anyone who builds custom homes for a living should use his industry contacts to build the cabinets for him. Now if you just want a fun learning experience after the day is done...

In addition to the suggestions above, consider a 32"x48"x24" high assembly table on casters. It will save your back moving the cases around and provide a flat assembly surface. The EZ Smart cutting table is a great way to break down plywood sheets. If finishing is part of the project, consider a sprayer.

[Jamie Buxton]

A guided saw would be a very useful tool; horsing full sheets of plywood through a contractors saw is darn difficult. You can buy a commercial product like the EZ system or the Festool, or now the DeWalt. Or you can make a shop-built version for less than $20. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=89625&postcount=1) Although I now have a commercial version, I used the shopbuilt version for decades, and it can work well. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

[jason lambert]

I aggree with the above. The festool saw is awesome and alwas useful. But you will also probably need a good router table something decent size that is going to be one of your primary tools. and get the proter cable kit so you can put the router in the table or hand hold it.

[Sean Rainaldi]

I tend to agree with Jay above, it's a time factor. I was 8 months ago where you are now.



Bosch4100 tablesaw with gravity rise stand

Was considering getting setup with the EZ Guide System and Smart Router Kit. I was hoping that a few of you could direct me toward the more valuable and useful EZ tools/parts in accomplishing my objective. Thanks

I would reccomend a cabinet saw over a rail system - that's just my personal experience others may disagree. I am finishing up my kitchen cabinets, I started out with a rail system and I could not get the speedy repeatability combined with accuracy with my rail saw that I expected, and I ended up buying a table saw half way through the project to finish up. From my exerience with a rail setup - it will work fine, it just takes longer and sometimes it gets frustrating, especially if you are doing frameless, you may end up with less wasted wood with a cabinet saw. Othere here will disagree and have replaced their table saws with their rail systems - I was just not good enough or paitent enough to make my rail system work for me personally. From my experience a rail system is great for breaking down sheets but for the final cuts a table saw is a great tool to have.

You can buy a grizzly cabinet saw for 750 bucks today with microsoft cash back, so there is only a very small price difference between a cabinet saw and a portable contractors saw these days. You can always buy a mobile base for the cabinet saw if you need to store it away in your shop.

I still use my rail system all the time for many other applications.

[Ken Lustgarten]

I wouldn't outsource anything. Like you said you are doing this as a hobby and as a learning experience.

As I am sure you are aware of unless you have proper material support for a table saw it is hard to handle sheet goods. Forget roller/flip stands as they tip at the worst possible times. In/out feed tables are best and then side support for crosscutting. All this makes your portable saw take up a lot of space.

I think you are on the right track with the EZ system. I would recommend the SGS114, cabinet maker, smart table kit (material support is important for any type of cutting), and the SRK. I find it so much easier and more accurate to move a light saw instead of a bulky sheet.

What else you need depends on the design choices you make for your cabs.

[frank shic]

brad, i know this is not the cheapest route, but this is my current setup for churning out frameless (european) cabinets:

contractor's table saw
exaktor/excalibur (60" version) sliding table
modulus 2000 scoring saw attachment
delta 32-325 line drill to bore system holes
hinge boring machine or drill press for hinge cups, levelling feet, metaboxes, hanging rail brackets

check out the KISS 2 grass cabinet hardware system - it'll explain a lot of the nuances of frameless cabinetry. the main gist is to use the 32mm holes for hanging the drawer slides and hinges which can save you a lot of time later on in the installation period. an even greater time saver are the metabox drawer systems in which the drawer sides also serve as the drawer slides cutting out all that time it takes to build your standard dadoed melamine or plywood or dovetail box.

btw, my experience with the eurekazone system with the cabinetmaker has been that it'll work although the cuts from a standard circular saw are not chip-free on both sides and it lacks the repeatable accuracy of a table saw not to mention that you will still need to lift the sheet on to a cutting table unless you plan on cutting it on the ground. most of the manual 32mm system drill guides and hinge boring jigs are also slow but will get the job done if you don't have the funds.

if you want to also build the cabinet doors yourself, i'd recommend at least four routers with one being a 3hp to do the raised panels, the other three i'd devote to coping, sticking and edge profiling. a fifth router might come in handy for doing just simple drawer fronts.

[Ken Lustgarten]

btw, my experience with the eurekazone system has been that it'll work although the cuts from a standard circular saw are not chip-free on both sides and it lacks the repeatable accuracy of a table saw not to mention that you will still need to lift the sheet on to a cutting table unless you plan on cutting it on the ground.


Just trying to keep the facts straight.

There is anti-chip protectiion (zero clearence) on both sides of the blade. Combined with a good blade you will get a great cut.

As for reapeatable accuracy you need the square and reapeaters. This makes it an easy matter to get exact reapeatable cuts. If you just rely on the plain rail and a ruler you will be close but not perfect.

Yes you still do have to put the sheet on the table but you do not have to try and guide that large sheet past a stationary blade.

[Ray Schafer]

I second the recommendation of the Kreg jig. I would get the Kreg Jig Master System.

[frank shic]

brett, another issue i forgot to mention: assembly. i've found that a pneumatic stapler and a few confirmat screws are the fastest way to put the boxes together without resorting to ungainly clamps. i'd also recommend using 5/8" (16mm) mealmine from a plywood supplier NOT home depot brand.

[Brett Nelson]

Thanks guys. This must be the most welcoming forum out there.

Unfortunately I think I will outsource a good portion of the door panels. They will be raised panel and my wife really wants them to look good in the kitchen and master bath. I might try my hand at doing the mudroom and shared bathroom.

I hadn't considered outsourcing the box parts because I kinda wanted the experience of doing it myself. I'm planning on getting into period furniture in the near future and I wanted the experience with the joinery. I had considered getting the pre-drilled melamine instead of drilling the holes for the eurostyle boxes, but I was actually really shying away from melamine in favor of birch ply.

[frank shic]

brett, outsourcing the doors will definitely save you time but if you want to use plywood, i would strongly encourage you to get prefinished and bore the system holes yourself - you don't necessarily need the entire line of system holes (which actually doesn't look that good in upper cabinets anyways) just the ones for the drawer slides and hinges. as far as period furniture goes, the joinery is very different: sliding dovetails, dovetail carcases, dovetail drawers, dovetail laps and is much more accomodating to solid wood movement rather than staples and screws which is what i use for all my home cabinetry.

[Dave Falkenstein]

It sounds like you might be drilling a lot of shelf pin holes. If you are going to buy a guided rail system, consider Festool for your guided saw and rails and look into the shelf pin drilling capability you get with the routers and guide rails with 32mm hole spacing:

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/32-mm-hole-drilling-guide-rail-42-1080-mm-491621.html

Check out the articles on this page.

A nice feature of Festool is the "system" perspective for the tools and rails, and the ways they all work together.

[Brett Nelson]

brett, outsourcing the doors will definitely save you time but if you want to use plywood, i would strongly encourage you to get prefinished and bore the system holes yourself - you don't necessarily need the entire line of system holes (which actually doesn't look that good in upper cabinets anyways) just the ones for the drawer slides and hinges. as far as period furniture goes, the joinery is very different: sliding dovetails, dovetail carcases, dovetail drawers, dovetail laps and is much more accomodating to solid wood movement rather than staples and screws which is what i use for all my home cabinetry.

Are pocket screws the preferred joinery on kitchen cabinets? Excluding the drawer boxes of course. I see a lot of dovetailed drawers.

So if I got prefinished, what finish would you get. Some of the cabinets will be painted and others dyed. The one thing that I liked about melamine is the plastic easy-clean surface. I've just heard that eurostyle cabinets tend to blow out hinges on melamine.

Would you get the carcass panels edgebanded already if you were outsourcing the cuts?

[Brett Nelson]

It sounds like you might be drilling a lot of shelf pin holes. If you are going to buy a guided rail system, consider Festool for your guided saw and rails and look into the shelf pin drilling capability you get with the routers and guide rails with 32mm hole spacing:

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-rails/32-mm-hole-drilling-guide-rail-42-1080-mm-491621.html

Check out the articles on this page.

A nice feature of Festool is the "system" perspective for the tools and rails, and the ways they all work together.

I really like the festool system, but not sure I have the budget for it. The 32mm router drill system is slick. Doesn't EZ have anything like that? It isn't the guidrail system from festoon that I don't like, it is the fact that I'd have to replace my other tools that aren't compatible.

[Brett Nelson]

Anyone who builds custom homes for a living should use his industry contacts to build the cabinets for him. Now if you just want a fun learning experience after the day is done...


Yes I know. I actually have a cabinet maker in the family, but I wanted the experience. I can't afford his setup as he runs a large shop, so I was hoping to get some advice here with regard to necessary tools.

I realize that doing eurostyle cabinets is going to make it harder, but I'm willing to give it a shot. I suppose I can always call for help once I've failed miserably.

[frank shic]

brett, melamine is more than strong enough to hold hinges as long as you use the proper hardware. i use the inserta clip on hinges and hinge plates which just require FIRM manual pressure to fix them to the system holes on the cabniet and the bored hinge holes in the doors. melamine is a great finish that is virtually bomb-proof and holds up to sustained use and makes seeing things within the cabinets easier not to mention that it's... cheaper BUT NOT inferior to plywood!

if you're planning on outsourcing the cutting then by all means have the edgebanding done as well since industrial edgebanders do a much better job than a hand iron or even fastcap's fastedge which is what i use predominantly at not only attaching the edgebanding to the melamine stock but also at trimming and polishing the edges although i've yet to find a company that makes the side panels in the height that i work with (774 mm) and bores the hole pattern the way i like so that the panels are reversible.

the festool system guide is similar to the lee valley system jig except that it uses a router instead of a drill. both of them are much slower than their cheaper cousins like the one rockler or eagle america sells since you don't have to fool around with adjusting a metal collar or saddle.

[Peter Quinn]

You can outsource the boxes to a place like Hall's Edge (you can google them for the web site) where your plywood will be cut on a vacuum clamp cnc, and can be dadoed or even blind dadoed, confirmat screw holes can be added, you name it. They edge band too. You could get e-cabinet systems on your computer, outsource the boxes to any number of CNC companies, any one of them will beat the pants off of any skill saw on skates or cabinet saw. They will send your boxes cut, labeled and ready to assemble when you are, which is important when trying to organize the construction of an entire house as I'm sure you are aware.

Lets be frank. If you really want the experience of having built some boxes, getting them square, designing the whole thing, build a vanity or mud room, then imagine doing it 25 more times the same way. The boxes are IMO the most boring, laborious and mundane part of a cabinet job. Once you have cut your second sheet of plywood for me the thrill is gone. Monkey work mostly. The real joy is in the show faces, doors, frames, end panels etc. And if you want to build period furniture, I'd say the solid wood components have more lessons to offer than devising some low budget scheme of cutting plywood parts in perfect squares or rectangles.

I'd get the tools you need to make doors and get real good at that. If you can cut and attach sheathing to the gable end of a house you already have most of the skills it takes to cut cabinet grade plywood or melamine and form it into boxes.

Perhaps a combo panel saw/shaper is right for you if the budget allows? A decent panel saw makes every method of cutting sheet goods short of cnc seem like a joke, and it works great for sizing solid wood parts too.

[Brett Nelson]

thanks guys.

I already have the e-cabinet system on my computer. Hadnt thought about ordering the box parts. So is the consensus with a dadoed joint for the boxes and pocket screw joinery?

[fRED mCnEILL]

When I did my kitchen cabinets I used a modified euro setup. By that I mean I made the carcasses and didn't use face frames. The carcases are edge banded with 1 in solid wood. I did not use the 32 mm boring system instead drilling holes where I needed them . So instead of hundreds of holes for adjustable shelves I drilled the holes needed when we decided where to place the shelves. The carcases were also built using biscuits.

As we used mostly drawers on the bottom the lack of face frames gave us more room and made it easier to use european hinges for the doors.

As far as tools is concerned I used a cabinet saw, a SCMS, a biscuit jointer,planer and jointer (I used undressed lumber). I also have a router table that I used. For finishing I sprayed laquer.

I tried to stay away from any metal fasteners.

By building carcases it allowed me to build them all before hand so when it came time to demo the kitchen and install cabinets I was all ready to go.

For breaking down sheets of plywood, I used the tailgate of my truck(as I pulled the sheets out) and also used my handsaw with sheets on foam.

Good luck

Fred M.

[Dave Falkenstein]

...So is the consensus with a dadoed joint for the boxes and pocket screw joinery?

The answer to that question depends on the material you choose for the carcasses. There has been discussion about plywood and melamine. Pocket screw joints would not be a good choice for melamine.

[frank shic]

although pocket screws can work for plywood, stapled and screwed butt joints are a lot easier. you can dado the back and staple in 1/4" melamine to save on weight and material. you may also want to consider reading either danny proulx's book on frameless cabinetry or the true32 guide. the woodweb archives can also provide a wealth of information to you.

btw, fred has a GREAT POINT: build the cabinets BEFORE you demolish the kitchen! i learned the hard way a few years ago that it really puts the squeeze on when you're trying to simultaneously build the kitchen cabinets, demo and tile >.<

[Burt Waddell]

Was considering getting setup with the EZ Guide System and Smart Router Kit. I was hoping that a few of you could direct me toward the more valuable and useful EZ tools/parts in accomplishing my objective. Thanks

Brett,

I run a small 2 man cabinet shop. When I first heard of the EZ Smart System, I had 3 unisaws. Sunday, I sold the last of the unisaws and now rely compeltely on the EZ system. For me it is as quick, safer, and the quality of work completed is better.

I agree with Ken about the SGS 114, the square (add a repeater and make it a cabinetmaker), and the repeaters. I'd also order an additional 64" rail to use with the cabinetmaker.

If you approach your sheet stock by ripping first, you will want the repeaters. If you are going to start by cross cutting first, the cabinet maker will be most useful. SInce you are new to woodworking, the cabinetmaker will work great for you.

Burt

[Vinny Miseo]

I just got finished building two sets of frameless cabs using a festool TS55, OF1400, tracks and a contracors saw. A nice rabbeting bit was helpful also. A router table is very helpful if you dont have a router with a track system.

I prefer using rabbets + glue and screw to using biscuits. I would edgeband before you rabbet and make sure to block the end to eliminate blowout. Making your own edge banding will give the boxes a much higher end feel if you decide to go with wood. Mill down some solid stock to 1/8", glue it up and flush cut it with a trim router. Personally I like this method a lot more than tape.

I will also second what Peter said, after the first box, it just 'aint that fun.

[Neal Clayton]

You can outsource the boxes to a place like Hall's Edge (you can google them for the web site) where your plywood will be cut on a vacuum clamp cnc, and can be dadoed or even blind dadoed, confirmat screw holes can be added, you name it. They edge band too. You could get e-cabinet systems on your computer, outsource the boxes to any number of CNC companies, any one of them will beat the pants off of any skill saw on skates or cabinet saw. They will send your boxes cut, labeled and ready to assemble when you are, which is important when trying to organize the construction of an entire house as I'm sure you are aware.

Lets be frank. If you really want the experience of having built some boxes, getting them square, designing the whole thing, build a vanity or mud room, then imagine doing it 25 more times the same way. The boxes are IMO the most boring, laborious and mundane part of a cabinet job. Once you have cut your second sheet of plywood for me the thrill is gone. Monkey work mostly. The real joy is in the show faces, doors, frames, end panels etc. And if you want to build period furniture, I'd say the solid wood components have more lessons to offer than devising some low budget scheme of cutting plywood parts in perfect squares or rectangles.

I'd get the tools you need to make doors and get real good at that. If you can cut and attach sheathing to the gable end of a house you already have most of the skills it takes to cut cabinet grade plywood or melamine and form it into boxes.

Perhaps a combo panel saw/shaper is right for you if the budget allows? A decent panel saw makes every method of cutting sheet goods short of cnc seem like a joke, and it works great for sizing solid wood parts too.

i agree with peter. unless you want the experience of building boxes for some reason, the doors and drawers are the work that you can spend time on and get a noticable return in the form of appearance from.

as a builder i'm sure you're aware that for every nice looking feature of a house, there's 10 things around it that are pretty much grunt work. not that there's anything wrong with said work, but once the skills are learned it's just stuff you churn out to get it done and over with.

i'm doing the same thing you're doing on a historic house, and am in the same boat really. making molding and cabinet boxes and such is tedium, any one of us can square boards and feed them into a machine. it's just not interesting day to day, so i've got hired help doing most of it.

doors and windows on the other hand are enjoyable because they take a higher degree of skill and have alot more room for creativity.

my .02.

[Brett Nelson]

Is Ecabinet systems still producing precut box parts and such? I heard that their store has closed?

[Rob Diz]

I am just about done with my kitchen redo, except for the island which will be a solid wood project and more like a piece of furniture. I did the kitchen primarily to get high quality products at half the cost of a crappy job.

The math for me worked as follows:

1) I have a unisaw, but purchased the EZ system - and really liked it. I had cut sheets for all of my sheets of ply, and cut and labeled each piece once cut. I would have been lost without it. Money well spent, My only complaint was that I could not get a cut through two sheets of ply at once. If you don't have a CS, take a look at the depth of cut including the set offs for the rail and the base plate.
2) I made my own carcasses.
3) I ordered the doors/drawers from Walzcraft - great folks and great products. I will be using them again for paying projects.
4) I ordered the drawers.
5) I did all of my own finishing, assembly and installation.

The boxes were made with rabbet and dados. Clamps and a few brads to keep the 1/2 back tight while the glue dried. I put a few hidden screws in a large hanging piece, but largely stayed away from the screws as overkill.

To me, this job was not about the artistry of ww, but getting a nice kitchen done to wife's specs in a reasonable amount of time (once I had started the demo). Although the trim is not all in yet, and the very custom island has not yet been built, kitchen was function in under three months - and yes I had a full time job that required travel.

I doubt that the difference in cost for me to purchase the rough lumber and special router bits to make my doors/drawers, and my ordering them and getting delivery w/in two weeks, was more than three or four hundred dollars. Money well spent IMO. with CNC made doors, I could order them to the mm, all square, no worries, and I could make a very nice tight fit with Euro. the doors almost look inset.

Wife is very happy, and everything works well.

It is a very satisfying project to do yourself, but as in life, pick your battles and time commitments.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

thanks guys.

So is the consensus with a dadoed joint for the boxes and pocket screw joinery?

Brett, Opinions are like rear ends....everyone's got one. Here goes my .02: Skip the dados, biscuits reinforced with pocket screws are plenty strong. I've built 3 kitchens now. I started out buying a large stack of how-to books. I threw them all out after I read a fellow creeker, Jim Tolpin's book: "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" (http://www.amazon.com/Building-Traditional-Kitchen-Cabinets-Completely/dp/1561587974/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225910114&sr=8-3)
It's filled with great tips and jigs that simplify construction. If you are serious about building kitchen cabinets, plunk down $20 and get this book before you go out on a tool shopping spree. It'll save you a ton of dough plus it makes the daunting task of building cabinets seem easy.