Marking knife or pencil??

[Brian Hale]

How do you make your mark? I just ordered a knife from Lee Valley to try out.

Just curious....

Brian :)

[David Klug]

Brian I use both. When I want the dimention to be very accurate I use a utility knife otherwise I juse a pencil.

[Jim Becker]

Generally, one of a bunch of pencils I keep around the shop...'have sharpener on one of the miter station supports. But I also have the Lee Valley marking knife and have used it when I was pretending to make nice hand-cut through dovetails awhile back...great experience, but not as good as I would have liked!

[John Miliunas]

Pencils all over the shop and usually one behind my ear, as well as a pencil sharpener at either end of the shop. For real critical marking, I use a beautifully made marking knife, which I purchased from our own, Dave Anderson. If the mark has to be dead-on, that's what I'll use. Only then will I lop it off with the ax. :D :cool:

[David Rose]

I'm like John up to the ax part. I score deeper, prop the board on a brick then drive close to the brick. With gas prices up, I just stick the board and brick closer to the tire. For no "break out" score both sides. Now if we can keep Dale out of this discussion. :o And I really suspect that John rammed the marking knife in just above the ear once or twice thinking it was his pencil. :D

Oh, one other difference is both my marking knife and pencils came from Lee Valley. The sharpener came from Office Depot. The bricks came with the house and the boards I periodically buy from various sources.

I don't know if all the knife points are as fragile as the Lee Valley but mine has a broken tip as do many others to whom I've spoken. At the time I broke mine I thought it might have been my fault in some way. I didn't think I caused it but was a total newbie when I broke it. If it breaks send it right back.

David



Pencils all over the shop and usually one behind my ear, as well as a pencil sharpener at either end of the shop. For real critical marking, I use a beautifully made marking knife, which I purchased from our own, Dave Anderson. If the mark has to be dead-on, that's what I'll use. Only then will I lop it off with the ax. :D :cool:

[Walt Pater]

I like a marking knife or awl if I'm going to chisel out something. Scoring the profile gives you a nice resting place to set your chisel for the first few taps.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Marking or striking knives have the advantage of not only producing a narrow thin line of consistent width, but they also score the wood and help prevent fuzzy cuts when a hand saw or pwoer tool are used. A properly scored line gives you a place to put the tip of a chisel to start a mortise or to begin chopping out the waste from dovetails. The difficulty with pencils is that the longer the line is, and the softer the pencil lead is, the wider the variance of the line width becomes from the beginning to the end. The question becomes where on the line you begin your cut-- indide or outside edge, or in the center. Little variances all add up and become cumulative error. A knife is less likely to cause this problem.

David Rose- If you are breaking the tips off of your knives you are using too much pressure and should bear down less. The Lee Valley knife uses good steel and shouldn't have any problems. The left and right set from Crown is another story, but we won't go there. If you are afraid of not being able to see your knife line because of dim light or aging eyes (like mine) there's an old diemakers trick you can use. Take a pencil and a piece of fine (220, 320 grit) sandpaper and sharpen the pencil point to a flat sharp point. Then run the point down the length of the knife cut to darken it. The lead stays in the cut this way and highlights the line.

[Gary Whitt]

Brian, it depends on how good your eyesight is!!!! :eek:
Pencils make wider marks which are easier to see.
Knives make very narrow marks that are sometimes hard to see.
I wear glasses to read and see up close so I use a couple of approaches:
Mechanical lead pencil - .5mm. As it gets dull, you just push more lead out. Unlike regular pencils though.... as it dulls, the mark never gets wider than .5mm! ;) They also make .7mm mechanical pencils.
I will also use a knife and go over the line with chalk so I can see it! :)

[Bob Hovde]

You mean you're not supposed to snap a chalk line for furniture parts? Maybe that's why I have to do so much adjusting after cutting out the pieces! :confused:

Bob

[Gary Whitt]

Bob, it sounds like you're just leaving room for expansion/contraction! :rolleyes: :cool:

[Hal Flynt]

It depends upon the amount of accuracy I need.

Chris Black at Highland Hardware showed me how he does it. He sharpens a pencil with a chisel to a knife edge. A long flat side on a standard #2 might be 2 or more inches long and the bevel side might be half that. Touch it up with 600 grit wet or dry, on the bevel as needed between sharpenings. Use it only for marking.

I also use a marking knife and a marking gauge, but I use the pencil above to high light it so I can see it

[Frank Pellow]

Because of my poor eyesite, I mostly have to resort to the use of a red ball point pen.

[Chris Padilla]

You mean you're not supposed to snap a chalk line for furniture parts? Maybe that's why I have to do so much adjusting after cutting out the pieces! :confused:

Bob
Bob,

Open the little door on the chalk holder and dip your finger in there and fill in a line made with a marking knife or Xacto knife. Works nicely and the excess rubs off easily.

[Tim Sproul]

Bob,

Open the little door on the chalk holder and dip your finger in there and fill in a line made with a marking knife or Xacto knife. Works nicely and the excess rubs off easily.

have some blackboard chalk....colored if you work really light woods such as Canadian grown hard maple..

run the chalk over the knife line....follow with a dry rag or paper towel. Less mess.

And to the poster RE using chalk lines....I use chalk lines when making fine furniture (ummmm...."fine" being an entirely subjective term :D ):

http://www.woodworkersweb.com/modules/gallery/albums/albur43/chalked.jpg

[Lee Schierer]

I confess I use a mechanical pencil with a .7 mm lead. Makes a fine line. I use HB drafting lead as the line is darker than #2 pencil.

Only one question for all you knife weilders out there. How do you erase the knife mark when you change your mind or discover the first measurement was off. Yes I sometimes measure twice before I cut. ;)

[Chris Padilla]

A knife line can usually be sanded out easily! :)

[Alan Turner]

I use both pencil, and knife (made by me, from the Dave Anderson instructions posted on the "other" side). But, I also will use other impelments as well. For example, a silver gel pen is great for marking a coarse line on a dark wood, if precision is not needed, as in marking a rosewood handle from a pattern to bandsaw, and then finish by hand. Also, balckboard chalk for the initial cutting from rough stock. A .3mm pencil if a knife line is not needed. A sharpie for makring on metal. A silver felt tip, for marking notes on a machine for settings (i.e., a perfect 90 deg. on the TS). Etc.
Alan

[Tim Sproul]

Only one question for all you knife weilders out there. How do you erase the knife mark when you change your mind or discover the first measurement was off. Yes I sometimes measure twice before I cut. ;)

I'm normally use a knife when marking off of a known part....such as marking tails after cutting pins. I use a pencil to mark the pins first, then cut. Pencil is fine because if I'm off 5 or 10 mils....it doesn't affect anything. If, when I go to cut the mate for that joint and I'm off 5 or 10 mils....it can make for either a joint that won't go together or is too sloppy.

[Dean Baumgartner]

Mechanical pencils are the thing for me. I used to use my good .3 or .5 draftsmans pencil but found that shop pencils are one of those things that if you only have 1 you can never find it, if you have 20 you can find them all. Or at least if you can't it doesn't matter. So what I've gone to are either the .5 or .7mm disposable mechanical pencils. Usually around $2 for a dozen, have them scattered all over the shop.

Dean

[Gary Whitt]

"How do you erase the knife mark when you change your mind or discover the first measurement was off. Yes I sometimes measure twice before I cut."

:eek: :D :rolleyes: :) :o

[Chris Padilla]

...have them scattered all over the shop.

Dean

Dean, mine have scattered so far that I can't find 'em any more! :( Did they grow legs or what? :confused:

;)

[Dan Stuewe]

Mechanical lead pencil - .5mm. As it gets dull, you just push more lead out. Unlike regular pencils though.... as it dulls, the mark never gets wider than .5mm! ;)

I've heard this before and I don't know if I'm missing something or what. I'm pretty sure the .5mm diameter is the perpendicular diameter. Maybe others are more careful, but when I use a pencil it is at an angle. So when the lead gets dull, the leading edge surface of the lead can get much wider than .5 mm (think of an oval with the narrow diameter.5 mm and the wide diameter up to 1mm wide - assuming pencil at 30 deg). I still try to use the technique I learned in High School drafting (where we sharpened those pencils needle sharp), and that is to roll the pencil as you draw your line to even out the wear.

Sorry for the soap box, this is something that has festered in my craw for 15 years ever since a college roommate made this claim.

BTW, I use .5mm mechanical pencils, but I'd like to use a beautiful well built knife when I get a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw - someday!

[Jerry Olexa]

Pencils 90% of time, needlepoint (knife) when accuracy essential (8% of time)and when I'm upset or mad (2%), I use a hatchet!! Jerry

[Gary Whitt]

If you held the pencil at a 30 degree angle, then the line size might be .55 or .6 mm with a .5 mm mechanical pencil. (One key is to only have about .3 to .5mm of lead sticking out to begin with.) This will still be much narrower than a lead pencil that has lead 1/8" or more thick; as it wears down and gets dull, at a 30 degree angle, well you can imagine how wide a mark will be left.

[Dean Baumgartner]

Dean, mine have scattered so far that I can't find 'em any more! :( Did they grow legs or what? :confused:

;)

Chris,
You just don't have enough of them scattered around the shop. If you have 5 you'll never find any of them but if you start with 20 or so you should be able to lay hands on at least 30 at any given time. Once you hit a critical mass they multiply on their own.

Dean

[David Rose]

Dave, I think I could use a little instruction. I didn't return the knife because I suspected that it might have been my fault. I know Lee Valley does primarily good "stuff".

I was trying to cut deep enough to help avoid some tearout on a router cut when I broke the tip. In other words I was cutting a little firmer than I would to just make a fine, light mark. But I wasn't trying to make the cut with the knife. If I remember I was marking out the edges for hinges. Should I have used several strokes to make this cut? Or will a light cut do the same thing? I don't think that "pencil pressure" would do more than just mark the cut.

Thanks for the tip on the follow up with a pencil. I've done that too, but don't normally need to as I usually follow that with a chisel. I just didn't in marking this router cut.

Give me an idea on what "reasonable" pressure would be. Maybe 3 times normal pencil pressure?

David



David Rose- If you are breaking the tips off of your knives you are using too much pressure and should bear down less. The Lee Valley knife uses good steel and shouldn't have any problems. The left and right set from Crown is another story, but we won't go there. If you are afraid of not being able to see your knife line because of dim light or aging eyes (like mine) there's an old diemakers trick you can use. Take a pencil and a piece of fine (220, 320 grit) sandpaper and sharpen the pencil point to a flat sharp point. Then run the point down the length of the knife cut to darken it. The lead stays in the cut this way and highlights the line.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Part of the answer is using a lighter pressure, and part is cutting with the blade somewhat off perpendicular. With the blade perpendicular to the work you are relying almost entirely on the tip of the knive, its weakest point. This also makes it harder to register well against the straightedge you are using and can cause the knife to wander. I usually start off with one very light pass and then go over the line carefully a couple of times deepening the mark each time. Unfortunately there isn't any "formula" for the correct amount of pressure, it's strictly a trial and error process and varies depending on both the hardness of the wood species and whether you are going with or across the grain. Experience is both the best and meanest teacher.

[David Rose]

Thanks Dave. That is kind of what I was after. The rest will have to be experienced. Angling the blade more and multiple passes with lighter pressure will probably prevent the problem from reocurring (that word doesn't look right). I have not reground the tip other than to sharpen the broken point. Do you cut your knives to a very fine point?

David


Part of the answer is using a lighter pressure, and part is cutting with the blade somewhat off perpendicular. With the blade perpendicular to the work you are relying almost entirely on the tip of the knive, its weakest point. This also makes it harder to register well against the straightedge you are using and can cause the knife to wander. I usually start off with one very light pass and then go over the line carefully a couple of times deepening the mark each time. Unfortunately there isn't any "formula" for the correct amount of pressure, it's strictly a trial and error process and varies depending on both the hardness of the wood species and whether you are going with or across the grain. Experience is both the best and meanest teacher.

[Dale Thompson]

Brian,
You have already heard from the experts. I'd like to throw out one more option. I found a pencil-sized tool at one of the "Box" stores. It is labeled only, "General USA". The "business" end is a very sharp carbide tip. I have used it to scribe wood, cast iron and even steel. The other end is a magnet. I use that to make sure that the steel plates in my head and other strategic areas of my carcass have not shifted - AGAIN! :) :eek:

Just a thought.

Dale T.

[nic obie]

I just bought a tape measure that has a pencil sharpner built in. Tre Kewl

Don't think I'm ready to use a knife yet... :D

[Dave Anderson NH]

Yes, I do sharpen my knives to a point, otherwise you can't get into the corners when marking dovetails. One other trick you can use. After sharpening and honing, take 2-4 strokes on the back side of the blade at a very slight angle. This adds a very small (small is key) back bevel to the cutting edge. This back bevel ends up being only .002" to .003" so it isn't enough to affect accuracy much. What is does do is help prevent shaving the straightedge you are using and also helps minimize nicks in the blade. I don't ship my knives with this back bevel since not everyone likes this idea, but I use it myself.

[Mark Singer]

I use both pencils and a knife or awl for marking depending on if it is rough sizing or fine joinery. Another option I use often is to draw the furniture part or joint detail in Turbo Cad....print it out full size and spray mount it to the piece. Then you can cut just outside the line. This is works well for pieces that are bandsawed. If the parts are repeated, you can make a plywood template from the drawing and use it to scribe the piece on the board to be cut. If it is a chair part you can chose a board to make all the parts for a given chair so the grain will all match. By using the templates you can maximize the use of the board by laying the templates on the board before cutting. It also helps to compare the grain pattern on 2 matching legs for example. These can be marked with a pencil following the plywood template since a great deal of both machine and hand work is to follow.
You can even use the cad program to draw dovetails to full scale and arrange the spacing. Make xerox's and spray mount them. Cut the pins first right thru the paper and scribe the tails from the pins in the normal maner using an awl or knife. The cad layout will make each drawer the same and give you a chance to arrange the spacing in the computer. A line is then scribed using a marking gauge for the material thickness plus a 32nd and the spray mounted drawing is set exactly on that line.
These ideas are taken from the way I have built architectural models for years using a scaled drawing as a base sheet and elevations as wall templates.

[Alan Turner]

Bob,

Open the little door on the chalk holder and dip your finger in there and fill in a line made with a marking knife or Xacto knife. Works nicely and the excess rubs off easily.
Chris,
Can't thank you enough for the tip on the marking line chalk dust. Just did some dovetails in a drawer for a shaker end table, in a dark rosewood, and the chalk dust is a lot easier than the way I used to do it, which was to make a mark with a knife, and then fill it in with a piece of chalk or white charcoal. I now keep a small tin of white chalk dust on the bench for this purpose. My old eyes really appreciate the help.
Alan

[Chris Padilla]

Yes, I do sharpen my knives to a point, otherwise you can't get into the corners when marking dovetails. One other trick you can use. After sharpening and honing, take 2-4 strokes on the back side of the blade at a very slight angle. This adds a very small (small is key) back bevel to the cutting edge. This back bevel ends up being only .002" to .003" so it isn't enough to affect accuracy much. What is does do is help prevent shaving the straightedge you are using and also helps minimize nicks in the blade. I don't ship my knives with this back bevel since not everyone likes this idea, but I use it myself.Dave,

Strange, I was trying to use your niftly little marking knife and had the problem of cutting into the wood I was marking against! I thought I wasn't using the knife correctly and it ended up back in the drawer as I cursed your name loudly! :eek: I guess I'll put a slight back bevel on the knife! ;)

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,
Can't thank you enough for the tip on the marking line chalk dust. Just did some dovetails in a drawer for a shaker end table, in a dark rosewood, and the chalk dust is a lot easier than the way I used to do it, which was to make a mark with a knife, and then fill it in with a piece of chalk or white charcoal. I now keep a small tin of white chalk dust on the bench for this purpose. My old eyes really appreciate the help.
Alan
Wow! That is great to hear, Alan! I use this idea all the time. It also works well for marking where bolts might need a relief hole if a board is applied over them. Just dab some on the screw head, press the board on it, and the chalk leaves a good enough mark as to where the bolt head is. I only have red and blue but I think I'll look for some white next time I remember.... :)

[Dave Anderson NH]

Not only is chalk great for filling in lines on dark wood, but is is an easily removed mrker fo identifying orientation of parts in a project. I keep sticks of chalk which I buy in the school supply section of the supermarket on the bench all the time. I mark the usual arrows, marks for identifying squared edges and corners, and anything else needed in chalk . The marks, unlike pencil, can be removed with a cloth wetted with mineral spirits after the parts have been assembled. No erasing, sanding, or rubbing like with the pencil, just a quick once over.

Another use of the chalk is for your files and rasps. Chalk up the teeth before using and you'll find that only a very quick swipe with the file card is needed to clean out the teeth. The chalk acts as a lubricant and prevents most of the clogging and sticking.