Help with DC - Griz or Oneida

[Ron Taylor]

I have a couple of grand burning my pocket and planning to spend every last dime on new stuff for my shop. I've setttled on the Grizzly 1023Z TS and the Grizzly G1035 shaper (at least I think I have), but in a quandry about a DC system.

Everyone here seems to lean toward the cyclone kits like perhaps the Oneida, but it seems to me like the Grizzly systems have better specs at considerably less price.

The lowend Oneida, 1 1/2 hp cyclone system is $741 while the Griz G1030, 3hp, 2300 CFM, dual bagger is only $504 including shipping.

Why is the cyclone better for the money?

I intend to install the system centrally with ducting to each work station, but perhaps initially could use the Griz on individual machines since it is "portable". This plus price makes me lean heavily toward to Griz. Am I going down a path that has a fork in it?

Does anyone know if Grizzly will cut some slack on shipping charges for multiple machines?

[Dale Sherman]

Ron,
Here's my view on the dust collectors:

The 2300 cfm quoted by Grizzly is pure fiction, expect about 1200 cfm at best, less if you're pulling through a long duct. Oneida gives realistic numbers. I have the Oneida 2 hp cyclone unit and have verified the numbers with a Magnehelic gauge and pitot tube.

The cyclone pre-separates most of the dust which reduces filter wear and clogging. It makes dust collection more convenient and extends the life of your filters.

Filter quality is another important factor. The Grizzly has 30 micron filters. This lets nearly all the small micron particles through, the stuff that is most damaging to the lungs. The Oneida has much better filters. If get the Grizzly, you'll definitely have to upgrade the filters.

I'd look at the 2 hp or 3 hp Oneida if you're going with a centrally located DC system. I recommend the external cartridge filter for easy service and excellent filtering.

If you go with the Grizzly, the real world performance will be much less than they quote. Upgrading the filters is a must. You'll want to add a cyclone or drop box in the future.

If you look at other brands, ask about the impeller diameter. The impeller diameter is more telling of cfm performance than hp or fictional cfm and SP (static pressure) numbers.

Ductwork is going to be expensive, too. Start looking for metal ductwork (used or new) or soil drain PVC pipes.

Oh yeah, Oneida will design your shop duct system for you, too. The service is free if you buy their system.

Dale Sherman

[Ron Taylor]

GOOD STUFF DALE!!!

These are the kinds of answers I was looking for. Methinks I'd better add a couple hundred and get the Oneida. As for ducts, I have a (soon to be favorite:D ) nephew in the metal duct business.

Since health is a primary reason for the system (couple heart attacks already), the filtration factor is very important to me.

Thanks for the excellent tips.

[Scott Coffelt]

I really like the Grizzly tools I have purchased. I have the 1023S and some other smaller stuff. That being said, I agree with above comments. I would not buy the Grizzly Cyclone. My reasoning:

1. This is what Onieda does for a living. I would think they are pretty good at it.
2. I am actually building mine based on a kit that Terry Hatfield has available. It is a design that has been modified my Bill Pentz which costs less and is extremely efficient.
3. I don't trust the ratings Grizzly has listed.

If I was to buy a system I would lean towards the Onieda.

Ducting, this is were the real money is spent. Depending on the setup this can be more than the DC itself. I was planning on using 6" PVC but it is extremely expensive for my budget. I wil be uses 26 gauge HVAC instead. If I had the funds I would put in the Onieda or some other brand of piping. The estimated cost for my system would be about $1500-$2000 just for ducting. I will spend about $400 with using HVAC. If you use the cheaper stuff, make sure never to close all of the gates or you could suck the pipe flat.

If you decide to buy the Onieda, take advantage of them designing your piping since it is free. You don't have to buy it from them.

[Jim Shockey]

I had the Grizzly 1029 dc for five or six years going thru six inch main and four inch drops and it worked great. I had fine dust in the shop all the time from the bags,5 micron. I looked at onieda and woodsucker for a long time and finely got the woodsucker.I work alone in my shop but I always leave two or three blast gates 0pen all the time . It has all the air movement that you would ever need .
Jim Shockey

[Dale Sherman]

Ron,
Just to give a little background info on where I'm coming from, Oneida Air Systems is 15 minutes away from my work. I used to work for them back in the early days. Peter Fedrigon started the business and was the man companies would call when their ten million dollar DC system wasn't working right. He'd get called to places all over the world.

Peter engineered a system for his small wood shop after seeing how lousy the imports were. He handed Oneida Air off to his daughter and son-in-law after thoroughly training them and their staff over several years.

Now Peter is mostly retired. I see him every month, though, at our turning club meetings. He uses a 1-1/2 hp Oneida DC in his small shop.

Dale

[Rob Russell]

Scott C. in KC - you're planning to use 26 gauge piping? From what I've read that's to thin for a DC system. I see you're comment about leaving an extra gate open, but I'd think you're better off just buying a heavier gauge pipe. With all the work you're going through to build a cyclone, why chintz out on piping?

Rob

[Jack Diemer]

I too am building the Bill Pentz unit, but if I wasn't building it, I would look at the woodsucker unit. Here is why, for about the same price, you get a high quality filter, hanging brackets, good 2 HP motor, bigger impeller, and better performance.

Also, if you check shipping, you will find the Oneida unit is much more expensive to ship. Also, you have to pay extra if you want clean air in your shop.

The advantage of the Oneida, is that it uses very thick steel, and I have heard it is quieter than the woodsucker. If stats are what are important to you, I would look hard at the woodsucker.

As for the 26 awg steel issue, that is actually an upgrade from the 30 awg HVAC stuff. It should work fine. Besides, How many of us have $250 per tool to do the ducting the Oneida way.

[Dave Hammelef]

Originally posted by Jack Diemer
...........

The advantage of the Oneida, is that it uses very thick steel, and I have heard it is quieter than the woodsucker. If stats are what are important to you, I would look hard at the woodsucker.

As for the 26 awg steel issue, that is actually an upgrade from the 30 awg HVAC stuff. It should work fine. Besides, How many of us have $250 per tool to do the ducting the Oneida way.

Um actually the Woodsucker uses Heavier gage steel or at least they did a few years ago. The Oneida is quieter if you buy there silencer. Make one and put it on the woodsucker and it will be quieter most of the noise is the air in the pipes and the air out the exhaust which is why the silencer works. Use S&D piping not schedule 40 pvc and the cost is very reasonable.

Dave

[Dennis Peacock]

Dale hit the "nail on the head" with bagged DC systems. I have a two bag 2 hp unit that states that it is rated for 1100 cfm of air movement. I can normally get around 400 cfm with a max of around 600 cfm. This is with ZERO ducting and a single section of flex pipe directly attached to the machine in use.

I am upgrading to Terry's Dust Eliminator Cyclone kit with a Leeson motor and I will then install fixed ducting to the cyclone. After all my reading and studying.....the cyclone is the best overall way for DC'ing and fine particle control.

JMO......

[JayStPeter]

I just plain hate bags. They are extremely messy when you change them, and the fuller they get, the worse the system performs. Yes, I could put an oversized bag on the top and avoid the second issue, but I have a cyclone body ... just have to get roundtuit.
On the other hand, cyclones aren't really portable. So, you pretty much have to install duct work to use one (thus the roundtuit part)

[David Arcoleo]

I don't know if your heart is set on the Z model, but be aware that because of the fence, you will not be able to put an outfeed table flush to the saw. I would *really* recommend the the non-z version. I have a bridgewood which has a fence the same as the non-z grizzly and it is fantastic for me. The bridgewood in fact appears to be the same in every way except that it comes standard w/ the long rails and dust hood.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention that.

[Terry Hatfield]

Ron,

Here's my take on these subjects...for what it's worth.....

Get the 1023 S or SL if you like left tilt or SLX if you need the bigger rip capacity. I was not impressed at all with the Z fence. This is one time that the Z series is not a good deal.

The Grizzly cyclone does not impress me either. Dale is right on with his comments on it. Totally trumped up cfm numbers and you will HAVE to do something about the final filtration. Cyclones should remove all but the finest particles left for the filter which are going to pass right through the 30 micron bags on the Grizzly cyclone. DUH... on Grizzly's part!!! Bad design...bad marketing...bad idea.

If you are going to get a complete system ducts and all get the Oneida. That's what they are really marketing......good total systems.

If you are just going to buy the cyclone and design your own ducts get the Woodsucker. That is what Larry is really marketing......good cyclones for those who want to design their own duct system.

Can't really go wrong with either cyclone. Budget is the biggest consideration here. If you have the funds , get the Oneida. If you want a good system and are willing to do some duct design work and spend less , get the Woodsucker.

My .02,

Terry Hatfield

[Jamey Moss]

I have a Woodsucker, and while the suction is excellent, it is louder than I wanted. I even bought the Oneida silencer, which easily connected to my Woodsucker 8" output. That made it a little quieter, but not enough to be able to listen to the radio or to keep me from needing ear muffs for extended use. The noise is not in the wall, ductwork or the exhaust, but it seems to come from the cyclone/impeller or maybe the bag/filter area. I'm considering putting a baffle over the plastic bag which is over the filter, or maybe building a box over the whole cyclone to reduce the noise.

I really like the performance of the Woodsucker, and maybe I'm just pickier on noise than most, but my system is not close to being as quiet as others mention ("you can barely tell when it's on...").

I'm not trying to scare anyone away from the Woodsucker, I'm just passing on my personal experience. Mine is located in the center of the wall near most of my work area, so those with more isolated DC locations would probably have better luck with the noise.

BTW, I designed my own 6" ductwork system, but bought the metal pipe and flex hose from Oneida. I bought the blast gates and wyes from Kencraft to save some money.

[Steve Roxberg]

Scott in KC,

I have a source of Metal pipe that is cheaper that PVC, I also live in KC and am going through the same process.

prices

6” = $1.37
5” = $1.14
4” = $.91

This is for 24 gauge spiral pipe, per foot. I can't find PVC that cheap in KC.

[Jack Diemer]

Where is the cheap pipe, and do they have cheap fittings too?

[Scott Coffelt]

I had the two models switched around. I have the 1023S not 1023Z. Must have been a brain fart or loss of hear again.

"I have to disagree on the comment about the Z series. I can put my outfeed table all the way to the back of the TS. The Z series uses a Beis. Clone and does not attach to the back of the TS. The S model attaches to the front and back. Since your outfeed table should not be taller than the TS, the fence rides above the outfeed table.

If that comment was correct, than it would be the same problem for the PM66, Unisaw, Jet, General, etc.

You will have to notch for the safety guard bracket, but you can put the outfeed all the way up to the back of the saw."

[Ron Taylor]

I'm glad I asked those questions. The information I'm getting is exactly what I need to make these decisions.

Notwithstanding the fence situation mentioned earlier, it seems that the "deluxe" features of the Z model are well worth the 30 bucks extra. The only disadvantage I see on the Z is that the SL has 3" wider table. Is this significant???

Anyone know of a Shop Fox dealer near Atlanta?