New cabinet saw - Which to buy?

[Ethan O'Neil]

I am in the market for a new cabinet saw, and wanted to get some opinions of which are the best out there right now. I'd really like to get a Sawstop but don't think I want to drop the $4500 on it. So I guess I'm looking under $3k range. I've been looking at the Grizzly, Delta, and Powermatic, but don't know anyone who has these saws.

[Chris Padilla]

If the SS is too much for your bank account, next in line for me would be the new Powermatic 2000. It should be several $100 less than the SS. I have a Grizzly 1023Z.

But forget a table saw...get a bandsaw instead!! Much safer, I think. :)

[Cary Falk]

Don't rule out Jet, Steel City, and General. They all have models with a riving knife. I have an old Uni so I am not looking. If I were looking today it would probably be between Grizzly, Jet, PM and Steel City.

[Matt Benton]

If you're willing to go up to the $3k range for a table saw, I wouldn't consider any except PM and General.

Don't get me wrong, I really like my Unisaw, but for $1k new, I should...

[Mark Carlson]

Hi Ethan,

This thread on the General occurred a couple of days ago.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=95010

~mark

[Neal Clayton]

only thing my second hand PM66 has gotten in 20 years is new belts and new blades.

i see people complaining about the PM2000's electronics here and there, but don't know if the same issues apply to the new 66s or not.

i do know that if you call powermatic, in about 5 minutes you get a person on the phone who knows the parts off the top of his or her head, and can send anything out same-day that you need.

in this day and age i don't concern myself that much with where something is made, but i do take notice of the service department of a company that makes something i intend to pay alot of money for and use for years.

when you get past 3000-4000 dollars in most tools that's alot of what you're paying for, imo.

[Jeff Monson]

My vote is for the pm2000 !!!!! Mine is about 3 months old and I absolutely love this saw, no problems, very smooth quiet and accurate with very little adjustments. DC is great, very quality product.

[Paul Steiner]

I would get a powermatic. The new powermatics are still very good quality. I have used both a brand new pm66 and unisaw, the pm66 feels more stable and the parts feel more rigid. I am a fan of old cast iron, my next saw for home will be a rebuild. I would put my money into a saw at auction or a second hand saw and rebuilding or refurbishing if needed. You could definitely find a pm66 or 72 and a whole variety of Unisaw's. But you could also get a Tannewitz or northfield for well under 3k. You would probably even save money-more money to buy wood.

[Matt Ocel]

PM -

Setting the gold standard since 1921!

Yes, you really can stand a nickel on edge, inches from the blade, start your saw, cut a piece of wood, shut your saw off, then blow the nickel over.
Would have never believed it until I tried on my PM2000.

[Dave Lehnert]

I think you will be happy with any brand in that price range. I would be more concerned with sales or service.
I own a Jet and think it is very well made tool. . I do like the new model with riving knife.

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/WMHToolGroup/708675PK_main?hei=800&wid=800

[Jim O'Dell]

If I had 3 gs to spend on a TS and wanted only a new one, I'd look long and hard at the General 650R. If used is an option, and a riving knife is not required, I really like the PM66. Now mind you, this is all from reading and looking at the saws. I've never cut wood on any of them. Now if money was no object, I'd settle for nothing less than a European slider. :D Jim.

[John Ricci]

+1 here for the new General 650R. Made in Canada and well worth your consideration. Top quality and within your price range...$2699Cdn....USA $???

http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/0general/650R_350Rt50a.html

J.R.

[Mike Heidrick]

If I had 3K for a tablesaw today I would be on the road to MN pickingup that CU300 Smart that was for sale for $3200! WOW!

I own a sawstop 5hp. It is really nice and probably the last cabinet saw I will ever buy. Only other saw I would consider would be a Euro slider and even that only after I demoed one to see if I liked it. Sure looks nice though.

[Karl Brogger]

Used Powermatic model 66's are for sale all over the place since many shops are dumping them to get the Sawstop models. 3 phase is the most common though. Its still my favorite saw.

[John Hedges]

If you want new it would be between a PM2000 (my saw) and the General 650R. I think the General is a heck of a machine with a slightly smaller table, but the casting process is superior. Tough call, can't go wrong either way. I love my PM, but General makes a heck of a product.

[Neal Clayton]

Used Powermatic model 66's are for sale all over the place since many shops are dumping them to get the Sawstop models. 3 phase is the most common though. Its still my favorite saw.

and i agree with this too. even if you get a 3 phase model, a phase converter fixes that, or if you prefer, sell the 3 phase motor for a couple hundred bucks and put it toward a new 5hp 220 motor, you're still way ahead.

[Denny Rice]

I am in the market for a new cabinet saw, and wanted to get some opinions of which are the best out there right now. I'd really like to get a Sawstop but don't think I want to drop the $4500 on it. So I guess I'm looking under $3k range. I've been looking at the Grizzly, Delta, and Powermatic, but don't know anyone who has these saws.

I think if I had 3 G's to spend on a quality table saw I would spend no more than 1500-2000 on a quality saw and tahe the other 1500 and buy something else I wanted.....JMHO

[Ethan O'Neil]

Let me clarify this point, I'd be WILLING to spend up to 3k, but is it that big of a difference going up to a PM or General as opposed to spending less on a Grizzly or Delta? I have a Grizzly bandsaw and jointer, and think their tools and CS are great.

[Chris Padilla]

If you have a bandsaw, why do you need a table saw? What size is your bandsaw?

[Tim Malyszko]

If the SS is too much for your bank account, next in line for me would be the new Powermatic 2000. It should be several $100 less than the SS. I have a Grizzly 1023Z.

But forget a table saw...get a bandsaw instead!! Much safer, I think

I can back the bandsaw being much safer from personal experience on Wednesday night. I was cutting a circular bowl blank on my bandsaw and the blank slipped as I made the final cut and I ran my finger right into the blade. Fortunately, I pulled my hand back immediately and sustained a small cut about 1/32" deep. If a similar thing happened on a Table Saw, I would say bye-bye to my fingers. Of course, I wouldn't be cutting turning blanks on the table saw - kind of hard to make a cylindrical bowl blank on a table saw.

[Peter Quadarella]

I use a bandsaw and don't have a tablesaw, but if I did want to buy a nice cabinet saw I would be looking most closely at the Steel City one.

[Neal Clayton]

Let me clarify this point, I'd be WILLING to spend up to 3k, but is it that big of a difference going up to a PM or General as opposed to spending less on a Grizzly or Delta? I have a Grizzly bandsaw and jointer, and think their tools and CS are great.


here's a pic of the guts of a PM66 that i'm guessing is 15-20 years old...

http://www.dreamshopwoodworks.com/images/powermatic/pm%20assem%203.jpg

here's a pic of the guts of a new craftsman/steel city saw...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/22124trunnion.jpg



notice how the powermatic parts look thicker, heavier, stronger? they look that way because they are. that's why people like old saws, and the new PMs and Generals haven't changed that much over the years, that's why they cost more.

will there be a difference out of the box? probably not. will there be a difference in 10 years? maybe, 5 years if you use it heavily? is paying more for something that will work like new 10, 15, 20 years later worth it? those aren't redundant questions, for some people yes, for some people no. that's what the difference is and the decision you have to make is.

[Jeremy Parkins]

I don't know what kind of a hurry your in but if you have some time and are patient you might be able to find a used Sawstop. I just picked up a mint used 5hp Sawstop with 52" fence for $1900...

[Ethan O'Neil]

I have a 14" bandsaw w/ riser, G0555. It is safer, but I've cut my finger on my bandsaw, I am a lot more wary when using my table saw. But honestly, how many people out there use a bandsaw instead of a table saw?

[Mark Roderick]

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that "What Table Saw Should I Buy?" is the most frequently asked question on woodworking forums, by a mile.

You could spend the rest of your life reading all the answers to this question. Then you'd get 10,000 personal opinions, never do any woodworking, and probably end up with a cozy retirement in a psychiatric hospital having driven yourself crazy with indecison.

Or. . . .

You might look at a couple woodworking magazines for reviews. They'll point out featuers like dust collection and riving knives, which you might not have thought of before.

Then, decide approximately how much money you want to spend, paste pictures of half a dozen choices on a wall, put on a blindfold, turn around a few times, and throw a dart. Wherever it lands, buy that machine.

I guaranty you will be happy with your choice. You will think it is the best choice, ever. EVERYBODY is happy with the tablesaw they buy. The reasons is that the saws are indistinguishable for practical purposes. A given saw might have this feature or that feature, but they call cut wood accurately in the same way.

Good luck. For insurance purposes, make sure no one is around when you throw the dart.

[John Thompson]

As mentioned earlier Ethan... you cannot compare trunnion size on a Craftsman hybrid for $699 or the actual Steel City hybrid at around $1100 to a PM at around $3000 or the General at around $3100 plus. If you pay that much more you should get that much more shouldn't you. The pictures posted earlier showed the difference between a PM 66 and the new Craftsman/Steel City. That is like comparing apples to oranges but it does not tell the whole story IMO.

I just purchased a Steel City Industrial 5 HP 1 phase wtih 50" fence for around $1800 which is less than the $3000 (give or take) of the PM and General. That should relate to the fact that I am not getting as much saw with smaller trunnions.. more run-out.. casting on components.. top polish etc., right. In this case...WRONG!

What I got was slightly thicker trunnions that are spaced wider.. cast just as well and attached just as well.. run-out at .004 at the arbor which is less than my neighbor's PM 66 which I love.. extremely well cast components and cast iron top polished to second to none. Compare them side by side.

Perhaps my fence is of less a grade than the PM or General. Nope... it is designed as the original Biesemeyer was with a bolt on the rear that has a nylon tab on the bottom that rides the back rail. That means the fence itself will not touch the table and drag. Four teflon adjuster screws on the front give you micro adjustment and the two standard steel and teflon adjusters as most fences patterned after the Biesemeyer. Narrower table maybe? Nope.. 28" deep.

So... you get what you pay for most of the time. I paid $1800 and got every penny of my money's worth and more compared to S3000. A deal on a used PM or General would be good. A Griz or Steel City standard 3 HP are solid saws. Very solid. There are just lots of options out there but... you have to compare to find that out. Then decide if you are going to get your monies worth with each asking price after a comparison.

Sarge..

[Mark Grotenhuis]

I don't know what kind of a hurry your in but if you have some time and are patient you might be able to find a used Sawstop. I just picked up a mint used 5hp Sawstop with 52" fence for $1900...

How in the world did you find a used Sawstop? I hope you're lying about that price too. I just bought mine new a month ago, I would have killed for that deal.

[Chris Padilla]

As mentioned earlier Ethan... you cannot compare trunnion size on a Craftsman hybrid for $699 or the actual Steel City hybrid at around $1100 to a PM at around $3000 or the General at around $3100 plus.

John,

I don't have any personal experience with the PM2k or the SS, but they look to have decent dust collection if for no other reason than the shroud they have installed. Does the SC have such a shroud? How is the DC on it?

[Chris Padilla]

I have a 14" bandsaw w/ riser, G0555. It is safer, but I've cut my finger on my bandsaw, I am a lot more wary when using my table saw. But honestly, how many people out there use a bandsaw instead of a table saw?

In Europe, the bandsaw is the center of most workshops. You will get NO kickback on a bandsaw. Ripping thick hardwood on a table saw always scares the bejesus out of me. That TS blade is spinning right at you.

I dunno...I grew up with a TS like every other kid who grew up here with their dad's ww'ing tools. I've lately found significant comfort in using a bandsaw. I've found the dust collection is easier/better. I even bent up an expensive blade on my bandsaw but other than a loud noise and soiled undies, nothing much else happend.

With some of the carbide tipped bandsaw blades out there, you can get high-quality cuts on a bandsaw. Now you might need a higher-end bandsaw for such things but I've only ever had a 20" bandsaw and maybe my bandsaw is the schlitz...I don't know.

As we all know, there are lottsa ways to skin a cat in a workshop and I'm finding myself using my TS less and less and my BS more and more....

[Ethan O'Neil]

Looks like the PM2000 and the General 650 are the favorites. I also read the fine woodworking review of 10" TS and the PM was a fav. I saw that you can get a PM2000 5HP single phase w/ table, legs, and 50" fence on ebay for $2798, then take $200 off for the MS Live discount, free shipping and another $50 rebate from PM. Best quote I've gotten for the General (which is hard to find in Louisiana) was closer to $3000.

[Nancy Laird]

You will get NO kickback on a bandsaw.
Chris, you are generalizing. My husband was cutting some curly maple on a bandsaw (the big Hitachi with a 3"-wide resaw blade), and the darned stuff kicked right back into his mouth and loosened a couple of front teeth.

Don't say you "will get NO kickback" with a bandsaw. I saw it happen!!! So you are creating a false sense of security.

[Jeremy Parkins]

How in the world did you find a used Sawstop? I hope you're lying about that price too. I just bought mine new a month ago, I would have killed for that deal.


Nope.. not lying. I found it on govdeals.com. A HS woodworking shop was closing. I won the auction for $1960 but when it didn't have the blades with it they said it should have they knocked the $60 off. It came with a extra dado and regular break as well.... Nedeless to say I was quite happy.

[Alan DuBoff]

In Europe, the bandsaw is the center of most workshops. You will get NO kickback on a bandsaw. Ripping thick hardwood on a table saw always scares the bejesus out of me. That TS blade is spinning right at you.
I don't know about Europe, and while I pretty much agree with you that a band saw is much safer, there is a glaring difference between a band saw and a table saw, that being the ability to produce truly square/parallel results.

A band saw will never produce the results that the table saw does, without additional work, since the blade has a tendency to wander some and it leaves an edge that needs to be cleaned up.

If I was to pick only one between the two, I would pick the band saw as well...but I really like having a table saw and I like the ripping capability of a table saw.

And while it is safer, there have been plenty of fingers cut off on a band saw, so it is best not to create too much comfort with it, so that it doesn't bite you one day. As with all tools, working responsibly is the best that any of us can do. That is no different on a table saw or band saw, just applied to the operation.

[Scott Myers]

I actually wrote this once before and this is probably very little help, but I too have been going through the torments of a new cabinet saw purchase. Being an engineer and old codger, I WAY over think and over analyse everything from design, manufacturing quality and about every other aspect you can think of on just about anything I buy.

In reality, when you get to a certain level of equipment, they are all pretty good. You certainly would get a quality piece with a General. North American made and Baldor motors are good. But don't think for a moment that components aren't sourced from overseas. Where do you think Baldor's castings come from in their small motors? IMO any of the top names be it General, Delta, Jet, Powermatic, Sawstop, etc. are going to be pretty good, else they wouldn't be "top names". They all have their niches, plusses and minuses.

I recently went through a buying fiasco where I had to return a saw for refund for various reasons. This sent me on a time eating mission to really crawl around a lot of cabinet saws and inspect their construction, design and quality. Based on that, I can tell you what I wouldn't recommend, but I won't do so publically, because in reality the "lesser" machines are designed for a certain demographic and price point. With that, come trade-offs. Suffice it to say, if it is in the group I named above, its a pretty good bet at top quality. The list is far from all inclusive, as I didn't look into the Euro machines. Nor did I really look closely at the Grizzly G0651 which has been reviewed positively (but so are some that I qould give the thumbs down to) or any other Grizzly model, as finding one to inspect is a bit of a difficulty. I just don't have the time to take a trip to look at one. I just looked at those that I know you can find on about every street corner, as servicability is an issue if there is a problem. I still like to do business face to face when possible as this makes someone I know accountable if there is an issue. That is worth something in my book.

There are some saws out there that seem a bargain. Remember the old adage, "You get what you pay for". This is still and will continue to be true. There is also the adage "Buy cheap, buy twice". Clearly, you understand these realities as you are looking at a General and are not shying away from the price tag. Good for you!

Then there is customer service. How easy are they to get hold of? How knoweldgeable are they? What is their committment level to fixing something? How fast will they do it if a service call is required? I spent some time calling the tech support lines and asking hard questions about complex alignment problems and give them a few scenarios to answer. Two different manufacturer's tech support guys tried to blow smoke. So you certainly would want to explore the service/tech support side of things too, as this is important. If you are going to plop down $3,000, you certainly expect them to step up to the plate and not treat you like a second class citizen because you didn't buy a 10 HP 3PH machine. So I would explore this carefully if I were you.

I hope you have more fun buying than I have had! Best wishes!



I am in the market for a new cabinet saw, and wanted to get some opinions of which are the best out there right now. I'd really like to get a Sawstop but don't think I want to drop the $4500 on it. So I guess I'm looking under $3k range. I've been looking at the Grizzly, Delta, and Powermatic, but don't know anyone who has these saws.

[John Thompson]

John,

I don't have any personal experience with the PM2k or the SS, but they look to have decent dust collection if for no other reason than the shroud they have installed. Does the SC have such a shroud? How is the DC on it?

Sorry to reply so late Chris, but I have been in the shop since around 2 PM and I missed your post when checking on coffee breaks....

The Steel City does not have a shroud and.. I can tell you from having a saw with one it does help especially if you only run a 4" DC line to the standard port. But... some saws just spit saw-dust from every nook and cranny. I had a Uni-saw that was a night-mare to plug holes on to avoid that. It would cover you with saw-dust out the front opening for the tilt shaft mechanism.

The Steel City has a standard port but the dust goes down to an angled sheet metal funnel as most cabinets without shrouds. All saws.. repeat all saws will leave saw-dust on top especially when running a zero clearance insert. Without over-head dust collection there is just going to be saw-dust left on the table top period.

So do I have a saw-dust problem with my Steel City 5 HP. No.. I opened the standard 4" port to 6" and use a 6" cyclone pipe direct to the saw on that end. And if you look at the picture I posted I added a home-made over-head arm and large dust shield. A 2 1/2" vacuum line from a Shop Vac 6.5 HP that sits under the right extention goes direct to that over-head collector. So... I get about 95% of the saw-dust which is much better than the TS I had with just a shroud and a 4" standard port.

IMO.. over-head is the big factor that trims down the excess as a shroud won't get it all.

Sarge..

[Mike Heidrick]

Nope.. not lying. I found it on govdeals.com. A HS woodworking shop was closing. I won the auction for $1960 but when it didn't have the blades with it they said it should have they knocked the $60 off. It came with a extra dado and regular break as well.... Nedeless to say I was quite happy.


That is about as rare a sawstop deal as there has ever been and I would like to smack the promoter of that auction on behalf of the school board. That school just lost MAJOR money! You get a smack too for accepting the saw for less $$ because of no blades. Great BUY and YOU SUCK! mine cost me more than double that!

He is dead serious too! http://www.govdeals.com/eas/closedItems_sold.cfm?itemID=83&acctID=1651&CFID=891382&CFTOKEN=13158699

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=944088

[Alan DuBoff]

That is about as rare a sawstop deal as there has ever been and I would like to smack the promoter of that auction on behalf of the school board. That school just lost MAJOR money!
Why? Seems like it went for a fair chunk of change.

It's only a table saw, and the guy paid about $2k for it.

I would think the auctioneer should get an attaboy!

[jack duren]

If I couldnt have a sawstop I'd just get a unisaw. Other than a griz based on price the rest dont offer anything of value....

[Nick Mastropietro]

I have just finished setting up a PM2000 and can tell you that this is one well made piece of equipment. You will spend a few hours setting up any TS, installing wings and squaring this up, many measurements were dead on right out of the crate. The Accufence system is pretty darn nice, you may want to upgrade your miter jig, the Incra systems are sweet, I opted for a Kreg. Oh ya, the built in mobile base is a nice feature, however your floor better be relitively flat or it will drag some. This is not a serious issue though.

[fRED mCnEILL]

Other than a King contractor saw, that I had to adjust monthly, I never had any experience with other table saws.

But my 75 year old neighbor, a prolific woodworker and former shop teacher, has had a General for over 30 years. In that time he has moved it 3 times and NEVER needed adjustment.

That was enough for me so I bought a "well used" General at an auction about 10 years ago. I brought it home and set it up AND NEVER EVEN HAD TO ADJUST IT . Other than buying a phase converter(it has a 5HP 3Phase motor) I didn't have to do anything to it.


Good Luck.

Fred Mc.