In search of a new table saw [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Eric Roberge

10-29-2008, 7:38 PM

glenn bradley

10-29-2008, 7:47 PM

A little info on what you plan to make will help. I wouldn't want to do kitchen cabinets or a china hutch on a 4100 but they are just about the best in their class. The table size, fence size and even the power of a jobsite saw will be restricting; no doubt about it. However, if you are making jewelry boxes, smaller wall cabinets, small to medium tables and so forth you may never feel the limit.

If you are thinking about larger furniture, depending on the style, you can skip the table saw. Buy a decent bandsaw with the intention of picking up a jointer and planer in the future. However, you say you have space limitations but I am not sure if you mean in general or just for the saw. A bandsaw in lieu of a tablesaw may not be to your liking as some tool to flatten your material is pretty much require so it's generally a jointer unless you really like hand planing which, many do.

travis howe

10-29-2008, 7:50 PM

Hey Eric... Well, I'm not a long time woodworker either however... I started out with a bench riobi and I'll tell ya, I didn't use that thing unless I absolutely had two...it was a danger more than anything it seemed.

I've recently aquired a nice new Powermatic 64a for about $500 bucks and let me tell you...it's a dream to use...a totally different experience. With space being a concern, there are still some nice saws out there that aren't too big and you can always add moble outfeed/side tables.

I've seen some nice used delta and ridgid's around that were a nice price. Also, some folks hesitate about Craftsman but they have two higher end ones that are rock solid and have good fences with them.

I found mine on craigslist...it'll be my number one used tool now.

Travis

Eric Roberge

10-29-2008, 7:57 PM

Well, I've been doing woodworking for many years and have always used a Shop Smith, but never really liked the TS feature. The rest of the SS is great, but the TS???? I have a joiner, planer, etc... all separate stations, but have not had to research a TS in a long time. I build small shelves to large entertainment cabinets. I use it to rip sheet stock, run dados, general home remodeling, etc. I'm thinking a full blown cast iron table unit, but just was wondering about other alternatives. If I really try, I can make the larger unit fit.

Neil Bosdet

10-29-2008, 8:13 PM

Hello everyone, I'm new here so bear with me. I have read many other threads talking about TS and I'm still having trouble deciding what table to buy. I know that this is not comparing apples-to-apples, but I have a budget of about $500 or so and have been looking at the Bosch 4100 all the way to a contractor table (Delta w/Bies, Griz, Ridgid,Shop Fox, etc.) Space is an issue but in my mind so is accuracy. Will the compact Bosch hold up and make accurate cuts? Obviously nothing compares to a cast iron table and good miter gauge, but can one really do good woodworking with a portable saw? Again, I know that this subject may have been beat to death already, but any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Hi Eric,

Here's my advice. I've worked with the portable Bosch, Ridgid, Dewalt and Makita table saws. The Bosch and the Ridgid are by the far the best. I own the Ridgid but I use it for construction on job sites. They are very limited IMO. I wouldn't accept this for a shop set up given other choices. I've also owned Delta and General cabinet and contractor saws. The General cabinet saw is awesome. Not very moveable and out of your price range. I'm making my recommendation longer than I need to only because I want you to know I'm coming from a place of knowledge and experience. The solution for a small shop with limited budget is the Ridgid contractor saw. It's about $500 and has a retractable mobile base. Easy to move around the shop. Lots of power, accurate and good fence. It's a no brainer. This will be my 3rd TS. I've got my shop set up and my portable. I will add the Ridgid Contractor for long term house builds I do. Go to the Borg and check it out yourself. It usually goes on sale around Christmas (or just after).

Eric Roberge

10-29-2008, 8:38 PM

Thanks Neil. I have been looking at the Ridgid as well. You're right, It gets solid reviews and looks like the fence is better than average. Other than the fact that the fence clamps in the front and the rear (which raises some concern by some people) it has been accepted as a "decent fence"
I think that I have ruled out the portable and will hold out for a good CL buy here in Charlotte or for an HD sale.
Thanks for the input.

Curt Harms

10-29-2008, 8:50 PM

but if you're near a large population center, Craigs List might be worth keeping an eye on. There have been some nice Delta, Powermatic and Craftsman contractor saw bought for around $200. Even if you had to put an aftermarket fence (Delta T2 $150) and a good miter gauge (Incra V27 is one) you're still only at $450. The other (better IMO) option would be lucking into a Unisaw or G1023 cabinet saw for around $500. You'd need some mechanical savvy to separate the wheat from the chaff but you're giving someone else the pleasure of out-the-door depreciation. You'd also be giving up the warranty but if the machine is working when you buy it it's likely to continue to work IMO.

Just something to think about.

Curt

Neil Bosdet

10-29-2008, 10:36 PM

I agree. With bigger equipment like a cabinet saw, there are real values to be had in buying used. The value is that this type of equipment will outlive all of us. So if someone wants to sell it for 1/2 price cause it's got some sawdust and maybe a scratch of two on it. Wahoo! But for your purposes, it sounds like you may benefit from something semi-portable (able to move it around the shop without killing yourself). In this case, I'd stick with a new Ridgid. Too good a saw for a great price.

scott spencer

10-29-2008, 10:48 PM

The portable saws will cut well enough, but they offer nearly zero advantages over the larger saws unless you need to schlep it off to a new jobsite on a regular basis. The full size cast iron saws hold most of the advantages, with the exception of floor space. A good used cabinet saw is possible in the $500 range and they actually take up less room than a contractor saw.

glenn bradley

10-29-2008, 11:17 PM

Sounds like we're getting on track here. Since you have your milling machines (jointer and planer) you're pretty set. The larger cabinetry is a pain without proper material support as you know from using your SS. Many folks have had the Ridgid saws and liked them. They do take up more room due to the motor hanging out the back but I would go there before the jobsite path. A nice used cab-saw would, of course, be better yet. Good luck on the hunt and please keep us updated ;-)

James Williams 007

10-29-2008, 11:19 PM

I would search the list and keep and eye on the classifieds. Don't be afraid of the old stuff it was built to last and you can get a great deal. My uncle just moved from CO to GA and when I was helping him move in I found a Rockwell table saw!!! It has a lot of cast iron and runs great. He asked me if I could find a home for it. If your interested it might be worth a trip to GA for a few hundred bucks. I hadn't planned on putting it out there yet because I wanted to really clean it up (I've become addicted to the old iron) but I saw your post and thought you might be interested. I'll post some specs and pics in the classifieds when I get a chance. Drop me a line if anyone's into the Rockwell stuff. I would keep it but I have a big Jet already.

Mark Evansen

10-29-2008, 11:43 PM

Eric,

I was sucked into this hobby three years ago through a shopsmith that was given to me. Since then, I've given the "smith" to my son-in-law and switched to separates. I have the Rigid contractor saw, and am absolutely pleased with it. With the right setups - crosscut sleds, outfeed tables, good quality blade with ZCI, and shop made fence extensions - I've experienced absolutely no problems with cutting full sheets of plywood or an occasional 12/4 oak. Purchased at the local HD, and assembly/setup went w/o any issues. The built in mobile base has proven quite valuable as my shop footprint has become significantly crowded with all of the "must haves" the LOML allows me.

Good luck!

Vic Damone

10-30-2008, 12:25 AM

Ridgid R4511 $600 will soon replace the TS3650/3660.

Eric Roberge

10-30-2008, 12:41 AM

Maybe the 3660 will go on sale then?..... Hmmmmm:cool:

Drew Eckhardt

10-30-2008, 1:32 AM

Will the compact Bosch hold up and make accurate cuts? Obviously nothing compares to a cast iron table and good miter gauge, but can one really do good woodworking with a portable saw?

Yes with limitations. It's plenty accurate. You're free to use a good miter gauge (I have an Incra with the flip stop. It's WONDERFUL - you can calibrate the scale to read inside or outside dimensions on bevel cuts and be 100% repeatable). Size is a bit small, especially for wider cross cuts without a sled; the table will only support about 7". Rips are limited to 25". Bogs down a bit ripping 3/4" hardwood. It's hard to adjust for angles other than 90 and 45 degrees where there are positive stops.

If I didn't want a saw that I could carry up the stairs from my basement (wait... I don't have a basement anymore) I'd put a used contractor's or cabinet saw with a decent fence on a mobile base. Used Unisaws can even be had in your price range.

Larry Rasmussen

10-30-2008, 1:59 AM

I think it's the 4100, I've been using the one that has been out for a while, not Bosch's upgrade of the same saw. I put a mule after market fence on it, built out the table to the right a bit and put it on a heavier base. With an outfeed table it works pretty good. I use a guided circular saw for sheet goods and a sliding miter for cut off so mostly just rip.

The idea was to get a smaller saw so I could push it out of the way and park in the garage once in a while. By the time I got it set up to be acceptable it was just a big as a table or cabinet set up. It is still very weak for crosscutting, doesn't have enough table in front of the blade to give you the start you need. I've been kind of mulling making a change. After this thread I'll look at the Rigid too.

Good luck,
Larry Rasmussen,
Seattle

Steve Rozmiarek

10-30-2008, 9:40 AM

Bill White

10-30-2008, 10:46 AM

Got the Griz 0444Z from a fellow Creeker. It has been super 'cause he had set it up CORRECTLY. Added a Incra gauge (the SE), a good Freud blade, the dust collector with Highland Woodworking bags (the felted ones). I've been a happy Creeker for over a year.
Saw, collector, misc. other stuff-----$500.00.
Bill

Neil Bosdet

10-30-2008, 10:50 AM

Ridgid R4511 $600 will soon replace the TS3650/3660.

Do you have a link that shows the new saw? What are the changes?

Ken Lustgarten

10-30-2008, 11:09 AM

I am going to recommend a little different route that may work nicely for you. First a little background. I am a Shopsmith owner to. I bought my 1950's SS used and gradually over time when they had good sales upgraded it to a 520, selling the original parts on ebay. It ended up costing me about 300 for the upgrade and 180 for the original machine, all the standard attachments, and a very nice joiner. Before this I had a Craftsman contractor saw for 20 years and have had a lot of experience with 5hp cabinet saws when I worked in the industry (Viking Yachts).

The key word you mentioned is space. No matter what saw you end up with (the Ridgid is a good choice) you need in/out feed support. This makes any table saw no matter how space saving it may be a very large beast. I hate roller stands for use with a table saw (flip stands are better) as they will tip on you at the worst time when cutting large stock or ply.

I recommend holding off on a new saw. Go with a guided saw system. I have owned both Festool and EZ Smart. I recommend the EZ as it is much more flexible and versatile. This will remove the need to do large work on the table saw, which may also remove your need for a larger table saw. With the addition of the EZ Smart my Shopsmith has proved to suffice. Guided systems also let you cut sheet goods safely by yourself. I recommend making a fold up cutting table for proper material support. You can also use a router on the guided systems and this is my preferred way of making dados, much safer then a table saw.

You may already have a good circular saw and router that will work great with the EZ system. Check out the Eurekazone forum on this site. I think this is the cheapest and the best way to do the work that you listed in your post. That is a rare combination. Also add to that the safest way!

Tom Burger

10-30-2008, 11:17 AM

Do you have a link that shows the new saw? What are the changes?

Not sure how to do links, but if you do a Google search, you'll
get your info.
It's appearance is in the mold of the SteelCity/Craftsman Hybrids.
The unique feature is a granite table top. It has a t-style fence;enclosed motor, etc...
Ripping capacity to the right has been reduced, however.
If it's anywhere near the quality of the TS3650, I'd look into it
for $600.

Vic Damone

10-30-2008, 11:35 AM

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3920291&page=9&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=

I've got the TS3650 and aside from it being a contractor style saw it's been serving me well. On the other hand I did own a Walker Turner cabinet saw and there is simply no substitute for weight, power and dust control, which is why I can't recommend any contractor style saw.

It seems Ridgid has done their homework with this new (hybrid?). Smaller footprint, Herc-U-Lift, riving knife (?), make for a good mobil garage saw.

scott spencer

10-30-2008, 11:56 AM

Not sure how to do links, but if you do a Google search, you'll
get your info.
It's appearance is in the mold of the SteelCity/Craftsman Hybrids.
The unique feature is a granite table top. It has a t-style fence;enclosed motor, etc...
Ripping capacity to the right has been reduced, however.
If it's anywhere near the quality of the TS3650, I'd look into it
for $600.

You should be able to slide the rails to the right a ways to get more capacity if needed....I've been able to get at least 10" with my last two saws, which gave me 40" and 36" rip respectively.

Sean Rainaldi

10-31-2008, 1:12 PM

Eric, I say that the fence makes the saw. You need a good fence for accurate, consistant cuts. I wouldn't worry about power so much, or practically anything else. The Biesmeyer fence is as good as it gets on a tablesaw, so I strongly recommend my first saw, a Delta/Biesmeyer contracter style saw.

That being said, buying used with your budget would probably get you a bigger heavier saw.

I agree with what you say about the fence, it's most important, yet the Incra fence I believe is the best on the market. They are accurate to .001 inch accuracy.

I think it's better to get a good quality but cheaper cabinet saw like a Grizzly 1023, which can be had for 750 bucks brand new with MS cashback, add on an incra fence for an extra 400 bucks and a bolt on riving knife for an extra hundred, and for around 1,250 bucks you will end up with a much better saw overall than a two or three thousand dollar saw that comes with a Biesmeyer. JMHO.

Tom Burger

10-31-2008, 3:24 PM

It seems Ridgid has done their homework with this new (hybrid?). Smaller footprint, Herc-U-Lift, riving knife (?), make for a good mobil garage saw.

Nah, from looking at the pictures, it looks like they
missed the boat on the riving knife. Shame, too.

Vic Damone

11-01-2008, 3:41 AM

Nah, from looking at the pictures, it looks like they
missed the boat on the riving knife. Shame, too.

As one of the people posting in that thread points out, the relationship between the blade guard bracket and the blade suggests the bracket, and/or riving knife, moves up and down with the blade.

Ridgid has been responsive to upgrades in the past. It would seem odd that with the UL qualification so close that they would do such a massive redesign and not include a riving knife.

What an inept description by Wood.

Jason White

11-01-2008, 1:50 PM

I'd suggest keeping an eye out at Home Depot in case they put the TS3650/3660 saws on clearance. They just came out with a replacement for that saw -- basically the same saw Sears used to sell (a "hybrid") but with a granite top.

The TS3650 was already a bargain to begin with. I imagine some people will be getting away with murder pretty soon!

JW

Hello everyone, I'm new here so bear with me. I have read many other threads talking about TS and I'm still having trouble deciding what table to buy. I know that this is not comparing apples-to-apples, but I have a budget of about $500 or so and have been looking at the Bosch 4100 all the way to a contractor table (Delta w/Bies, Griz, Ridgid,Shop Fox, etc.) Space is an issue but in my mind so is accuracy. Will the compact Bosch hold up and make accurate cuts? Obviously nothing compares to a cast iron table and good miter gauge, but can one really do good woodworking with a portable saw? Again, I know that this subject may have been beat to death already, but any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Steve Rozmiarek

11-01-2008, 3:26 PM

I agree with what you say about the fence, it's most important, yet the Incra fence I believe is the best on the market. They are accurate to .001 inch accuracy.

I think it's better to get a good quality but cheaper cabinet saw like a Grizzly 1023, which can be had for 750 bucks brand new with MS cashback, add on an incra fence for an extra 400 bucks and a bolt on riving knife for an extra hundred, and for around 1,250 bucks you will end up with a much better saw overall than a two or three thousand dollar saw that comes with a Biesmeyer. JMHO.

Sean, glad we have both options to choose from, but I stand by the Biesmeyer over the Incra. I like the simplicity for one, the t-square design also gives the Bies tremendous strength, and the accuracy pass to pass is perfect.

Incra markets .001 accuracy, but who uses their saws that way? I think most of us set the fence, and cut all of the pieces associated with that measurment at one time. For instance ripping door stock. All the ripping is done with one setting of the fence. If being human comes into play, and a piece is goofed up, do you whip out the dial caliper to see the setting? I just set the fence for the planned measurment, usually a division of measure no finer than an 1/8th, and go. Who plans in .001"?

Do you use the Incra? I do think they make good products, just overly complicated and unessecary in this instance.

Tom Burger

11-01-2008, 7:05 PM

As one of the people posting in that thread points out, the relationship between the blade guard bracket and the blade suggests the bracket, and/or riving knife, moves up and down with the blade.

Ridgid has been responsive to upgrades in the past. It would seem odd that with the UL qualification so close that they would do such a massive redesign and not include a riving knife.

What an inept description by Wood.

I'm surprised, too, if it's not a riving knife. I see it becoming standard
equipment on table saws in the near future and figured Ridgid
would be ahead of the curve to use it as a selling point. Maybe cost
considerations kept it off the saw?

Then again, maybe it's their own pseudo-riving system. Dunno.
But, it seems par for the course for Ridgid to leak the existence
of a new tool without more specific details. It seems to drive
their die-hard users a little crazy.

Jerry Henderson

12-01-2008, 12:59 PM

Home Depot has them listed, not in stock but listed now. I want to know more. I may be interested, Oh it looks like it has a riving knife. :D

Joe Chritz

12-01-2008, 1:57 PM

I have the Ridgid contractor saw and for the money it is hard to beat. It does everything I ever need it to do without complaining. A dedicated rip blade would help with the thick stock but I get by with a 40T combo since I am generally to lazy to switch out blades.

Keep an eye out for a HD deal and you can score some good deals on the saw.

ETA: Also the fence is light but locks solid and straight. The tape works perfect and I have stopped re-checking fence settings and just go off the fence. The dust collection on mine is OK but I ended up enclosing the underside with hardboard and attached a 5" line to it. I have pics in an old post somewhere.

Joe

Matthew Hills

12-01-2008, 2:42 PM

I've currently got a JET Proshop hybrid saw, and was borrowing a friend's Bosch 4000 before that.

Cut quality:
Both were fine. Neither are 5hp monsters, and a home-brew ZCI and good blade were useful on both. I didn't test on 8/4 australian exotics or anything.

Fences:
Both fences are stable once locked down. The Proshop's fence glides nicely and is easier to make fine adjustments on, while the Bosch's grabs a bit. Also, the Proshop fence is longer and taller, so a bit easier to work with.

Dust collection:
Bosch was better, with the dust shroud. Proshop should be okay if your DC system moves enough air (mine is a bit anemic).

Noise:
The Proshop is a lot better here.

Extras:
The Bosch splitter and guard are better than the Proshop design. Miter slots on the Proshop were nicer than what was on the Bosch 4000. Haven't used the new design of the 4100. Not sure what to expect there--textured aluminum doesn't seem as ideal, but it might turn out okay. I never got around to building a sled for the Bosch--that might be a good idea.

Table size:
The Bosch table felt very small to me. I didn't feel that I had enough room in front of the blade to get the wood stable and registered against the fence. This is the main reason I got the Proshop. Both will require extra outfeed support for long rips.

Storage:
I got the Proshop because of the under-table motor, but it still takes up more space. A bit more depth, and a lot more width. The collapsible table extension on the Bosch is a big help in keeping storage compact. I'd say the normal folding stand is more compact than the wheel unit, but the saw is a bit to lug around, and the wheeled stand is probably the more practical choice if you expect to be pulling the saw out fairly regularly.

Matt

Dan Bussiere

12-01-2008, 3:06 PM

I can't speak for other saws, but last year for Christmas I bought a Delta contractors saw with the Bies fence and it is more than I will even need. If you set it up properly it is accurate and strong and just right for my small shop.

Rod Sheridan

12-01-2008, 3:23 PM

HI Eric, if I understand correctly, you're not going to be moving this saw from site to site, so I would eliminate the portable saws from the start, since you don't need what they do, which is be light enough to carry.

That then leaves you with three choices for a tablesaw which are in order of capability

- a European slider, which your budget excludes

- a cabinet saw such as the General 650R which is also excluded by your budget

- a contractor saw.

The contractor saws typically have a cast iron table (don't purchase any other table surface type), which is large enough to handle sheet goods.

A folding outfeed table should be your first project to help with the use of, and to allow you to safely cut sheet goods without over reaching and having accidents.

You should pick one with a good fence, and put the saw on a mobile base so you can tuck it out of the way.

Since you're new, let me mention two safety items

1) Always use a guard. If you can't use the guard for what you're doing, either upgrade to an overarm guard, or don't do what you were planning to do. For obvious reasons, if you can't use the guard, the machine isn't designed to perform the operation you're attempting.

2) Same for the splitter or riving knife, if you're ripping you need a splitter or riving knife to help prevent kickback.

The third item is good dust collection, which is connected to the saw to keep your lungs clear of sawdust. The sub micron sized dust is the most dangerous, since it's hard to see, and bypasses all our built in bilogical filters.

Wellcome to the Creek, and good luck and best wishes on your new purchase.

Regards, Rod.

Todd Crawford

12-02-2008, 5:34 PM

It's in stock online right now. I haven't seen it in the store yet, but can't wait to get a look at it!

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100656424&N=10000003+90401+500744

Joe Von Kaenel

12-02-2008, 6:13 PM

Eric,

I agree with Neil and other's for the money the Ridgid Contractors saw is a great saw. I have had a Ridgid TS 3650 for over a year and have had very experienced carpenters and woodworkers comment how nice the saw cuts and how they also like the fence. Hope this helps

Joe

Andy Sowers

12-02-2008, 6:36 PM

I've had a Bosch jobsite saw for a couple of years now. It has served me well. I've had my eye on the Steel City/Zipcode saws for sometime, so I'm definitely interested in the new Ridgid R4511.

The website shows the saw as available online... but the cost of shipping is $452!!! I think I'll wait until the saw shows up in the local stores...

Gene Michael

12-02-2008, 7:49 PM

As you consider a TS purchase, beware of the Delta contractor saw series. I've had serious alignment problems with my 36-650 and have read of others having a similar experience.

Greg Cuetara

12-02-2008, 7:59 PM

Eric,
Make sure you keep an eye on CL. I have a friend who works in the Charlotte area and he boasts about all the CL buys. He just picked up a laguna 18" bandsaw for $650...he also picked up his whole workshop for pretty cheap. If you are in a hurry you may be out of luck but if you can watch it for a little while you may get a great deal.

I am still trying to figure out when ridgid is going to come out with their hybrid because I think that is going to be a great saw for the money...if it is truly $600.

Greg