tenon saw

[Joel Goodman]

How big should a tenon saw be? Obviously the size of the tenons is at issue but Chris Schwarz seems to recommend a 16 -20 backsaw as ideal for most casework size tenons -- a lot bigger than is common. How long is your tenon saw? What's the consensus on a good length? Help!

[Johnny Kleso]

12-14" is normal
depends now big tennon and for what I am using the saw for..

[Robert Rozaieski]

What you see on the market today in most retail outlets are not really proper tenon saws for cutting wide tenons (except for the nice long ones Mike W. makes). Mine's 12" and it's way too short for wide tenons. I can cut small tenons fine with it but for wider tenons, like 3"+ wide, it clogs something awful as there just isn't enough stroke length for the teeth to clear the kerf and clear themselves of dust. Once the teeth clog, the saw stops cutting until you remove it from the kerf and clear the dust from the teeth gullets. If you cut tenons wider than 3", you should get a longer tenon saw (a dovetail saw will do in a pinch for small tenons where the long tenon saw is too long). Ideally you should have 2 tenon saws. A smaller one (12-14") for smaller tenons like those for face frames, door frames, drawer runners & kickers, and a longer one (16-19") for wide tenons like those for table aprons or the sides of dressing tables (which can be 12" wide or more). I have a 16-18" tenon saw on my wish list and will be getting one before my next project with wide tenons. An option for a longer saw if you can't swing one of Mike's beauties is to modify (cut down and rehandle) an old miter box saw, which came up to 28" or so long. Tenon saws in the 16-18" range do come up from time to time on ebay, but they are a fairly rare occurence.

[Jim Becker]

I opted for Mike W's smaller tenon saw. It seemed to be a comfortable size for me for all I intend doing with it. While I have not had a chance to personally use it much yet (my 13 year old daughter has been the only one to use it on an actual project so far it seems) I think it's a nice size for cutting tenons in the size range that folks would be working with on the majority of projects.

[Don C Peterson]

I have a pretty good selection of old back saws, the one I use the most is the 12" crosscut. That's just because it's easy to grab and use for lots of small cuts that need to be made. However, I have really come to appreciate the big 28" Disstons I have. They make it easy to cut a straight and true line and the added weight makes sawing easy since there's no need to exert much downforce, I just worry about keeping the saw straight and the saw does the rest.

[mike holden]

I have a Tyzack at 12 inches, but took the "saw" class from Chris Schwarz a couple years ago and had a chance to try the Wenzloff copy of the John Kenyon / Seaton tool chest saw. Loved it! Went home and ordered it. 19 inches of cutting ease.

That is my experience, YMMV.

However, if I had never tried the Wenzloff, I would have remained quite happy with my Tyzack.

Mike

[Mike K Wenzloff]

How big should a tenon saw be? Obviously the size of the tenons is at issue but Chris Schwarz seems to recommend a 16 -20 backsaw as ideal for most casework size tenons -- a lot bigger than is common. How long is your tenon saw? What's the consensus on a good length? Help!
Hi Joel,

The issues are really one of stroke length and lower PPI (fewer points per inch). Both those work in conjunction with each other to make for efficient sawing. However, thickness of the saw plate comes into play as well. Many/most of the later, longer backsaws that are designed really for miter box use (whether a metal or shop-made wood miter box) have plates much thicker than what is ideal.

Size of work also comes into play. I find I use what is/was called a sash saw more for what I make than the longer tenon saws. But I have historically made smaller stuff. When I did do tenons wider than a couple inches, I used a 16" saw. For stuff that was yet larger--table aprons and the like, I used a combination of the longer tenon and if needed for depth, deepening with a shorter panel saw.

In the years since how I was taught, a longer and deeper back saw has come into play. My longest vintage back saw is 21 1/2" and is 8 ppi. They get shorter and higher ppi from there. But the plates on my longer vintage back saws range from 0.025" to 0.028". Thin enough that the kerfs can be thinner and hence sawing swifter.

For ripping tenon cheeks, a rip patterned tooth is most efficient. The small LV tenon saw is a cross cut. Works, but less efficient.

Take care, Mike

[Brian Ward]

Tenon saws in the 16-18" range do come up from time to time on ebay, but they are a fairly rare occurence.

I found some 16" tenon saws at Sears for $10 the other week (unhardened teeth, reasonable-looking sawplate thickness). A few of them were actually straight, so I got one. I haven't started retoothing it or making a new handle, but I figure that when I'm done, I'll have another companion for the carcase saw I completed earlier this year (image attached), which also started life as a cheap saw with ridiculous teeth and handle.

[John Dykes]

I have both Adria small tenon saws, and have found what you describe to be true. I'd likely trade them both for a single, x-large (edit: read "extra large," meaning Mike's 19") tenon saw.

Struggling with my workbench project, I'm ready to buy... looking at the Seaton 19", but long lead time.

- jbd in Denver

[Alan DuBoff]

It seems that wherever folks have read Chris Schwarz' comments, it has added some confusion to saws, at least some.

I need to make a saw for a gent that gave me a motor for my horizontal mill, he also noted that Chris stated about the x-large tenon saws being so good.

He wants a crosscut saw, as they are so useful and he doesn't have one, and I pointed out to him that most crosscutting can be done with a smaller saw, although large doesn't hurt, I don't see it as being an advantage.

I think the x-large tenon saw Mike made for Chris was filed rip, and that would make sense for cutting tenon cheeks, or even dovetails as rip is the preferred tooth pattern for that. However, for the tenon shoulders, a smaller carcass saw is preferred, IMO, and easier for most to wield.

Personally I feel too many people put too much faith in what someone like Chris or other journalists write, it is not gospel after all. There are many ways to skin a cat, use the saw you feel comfortable with.

There is nothing wrong with a 19" tenon saw with a 4" blade depth, but is that needed for crosscutting? Will it see good use? I think this type saw will see more use when filed rip, or be more useful for more folks.

For crosscutting, a carcass saw or small tenon is more useful, IMO, and can be used with a bench hook, can cut tenon shoulders, and other crosscutting tasks for most joinery.

I don't see the advantage of wielding around a 19" x-large tenon saw for crosscutting. It all depends on the task at hand, what a person likes, how they work. In the perfect world we would have 2 saws for each size, one crosscut and one rip. But in the real world we don't need so many, although one can easily acquire a dozen saws to cover the tasks they have at hand. At minimum one needs a saw, and preferably 2 saws (one crosscut and one rip), and anything more should be for the convenience of the task at hand. My $0.02.

[Robert Rozaieski]

There is nothing wrong with a 19" tenon saw with a 4" blade depth, but is that needed for crosscutting?

Absolutely not. :D

But the 19" saw with a 4" blade depth is not intended for crosscutting. It is filed rip and intended for ripping the cheeks off of wide tenons. Is one of these saws necessary for everyone? No, but if you do a lot of hand cutting of tenons in furniture sized work, you will appreciate it.

I currently have 2 rip backsaws and 2 crosscut backsaws. Most people can make do with 1 crosscut backsaw about 14" long with about 12-14 ppi. It's perfect for just about every fine crosscutting task in the shop. My second crosscut backsaw is filed 19 ppi and is reserved only for very small pieces that need a very fine saw. Most folks will rarely if ever use a small crosscut saw like this so it's not really needed.

Rip backsaws on the other hand are a whole different animal. In most cases you are talking about a deep cut that doesn't clear sawdust easily if you don't use the proper saw. My first rip backsaw is an 8" dovetail saw filed rip 19 ppi. I use this for small dovetails in drawers and such.

My second rip backsaw is 12" long about 14 ppi. I use this as a carcase dovetail saw but it is also my only tenon saw. For me, this is a problem.

Here's an example for you. When I build a smaller piece or make smaller tenons, up to about 3" wide, the saw works ok. However, when the tenons are wider than 3", that 12" saw is too short. Most tenons on table aprons are over 3" wide. The tenons on the side of a dressing table (lowboy) or the bottom case of a highboy can be over 12" wide. There is no way for me to cut a 12" wide tenon with my 12" long tenon saw. In this case, I need a long tenon saw.

I agree with you Alan that a lot of folks have no need for a backsaw that long, however, for anyone that builds furniture sized pieces and cuts the joinery by hand, you need a long tenon saw. It doesn't need to be the 19" Kenyon that Chris Schwarz has but it needs to be longer than the 12-14" saws typically available if you plan to saw wide tenons.

If you don't plan to saw the real wide tenons like those found on lowboys, I think 16" is probably a good compromise. It will do most furniture sized tenons just fine. I would avoid the real short tenon saws like the 10-12" ones that are sold as tenon saws but aren't really.

[John Dykes]

hmmm - while I am often quick to admit my confusion and lack of experience and knowledge. This isn't one of those times... (though I will happily accept correction from my betters, as it only helps in my own education). But you might not fully understand the saw, or my requirements - or Chris's view for that matter.

I can't speak to your friend, but if you gander at Mike's site, this particular tenon saw comes filed rip. Which is what I want.... The tenons (cheeks) on my bench are quite large, and I would benefit from a much larger saw - and from my research, yes - think it would be handy on many of my tenons. Shoulders aren't my concern - again, my Adria (x-cut (Edit: read "crosscut")) saw works quite well with that.

Regardless of what your friend needed \ wanted. I had no misconception that this was a crosscut saw. In my case, the rip operation of a tenon is much greater (depth, width) than the crosscut.

And no, I don't have any need for a 19" crosscut tenon saw (nor have known of any who might have proposed such??). I guess we're in agreement about that. So, I'm not sure your angst with "journalists" is warranted in this case - perhaps a bit of a misunderstanding on your part.

But to that point (and getting a bit personal here), I want to work wood. I want to be a craftsman, a woodworker, a master of tools. In complete honesty, I woke up this morning, rolled to my wife and said - "Wow! I had a great dream last night! It was amazing, so lifelike!" She rolled her eyes and sarcastically quipped, "Let me guess, you fiiiiiinally met David Charlesworth?" "NO!" says I, "I was apprenticed to Frank Klausz! He was as mean as a blacksnake, and it was GREAT!"

Point being, my path is not that of a craftsman - all I have are dreams and a mortgage. But these "journalists" through the magic of the Internet, their books, and their emails of personal encouragement - help me. Help me advance, help me pretend that I CAN be good. And that I can learn a few techniques of the craftsman. And lest any be confused on that point, this is not a blind devotion to idols I may admire... It's an endorsement of their ability to convey a concept I won't otherwise learn.

David Charlesworth is an example. My first plane was a brand new #4 LN smoother. I couldn't work it for squat - yea, I'm that dumb. But DC 'taught' me to sharpen and use a handplane. Guess what, I can make .001 shavings with the best of them. And for that concept, and many since then, I take his teaching as, in your words, gospel - you betcha.

And particular to Schwarz - I've always wanted to four-square a board completely by hand (simple to many perhaps, but to me a pinnacle of accomplishment!) - but didn't want to spend money on a scrub. In one of his 'journalistic' articles, he taught me that a #6 fore plane is perfect for rough work, and not only so - he showed me exactly, step-by-step, how to make a radically curved blade for that work. He made it simple enough that John Dykes could follow it.... And by damn, it worked! Such was my elation, I was moved to send him an email - one and only. "Thanks Chris! I did it!" I did it, the computer science hack who can only hope to be more.

Learning to saw scared me 1/2 to death - hobbled by past failures. I've learned and had success. My thanks to Chris the journalist. Workbench. ME? Make a workbench?! Are you kidding? I'll post pictures - it's huge, solid.... beautiful...

Point being, as long as these journalists continue to teach the ignorant such as myself, those of us who can only hope to be craftsman, then yes, I willingly follow. Schwartz, Klausz, Cosman, Kingshott, and Charlesworth - as well as the further authors they point me to.

Through proof of experience, and results - I consider Chris to be one of the premier handtool experts of our time. In my view, he has earned that position through his integrity and passion to the craft.

Admittedly, this topic has raised a hair with me. I'd be lost without that group... And would happily sweep their floor, oil their tools, and sleep on their woodpile - for the opportunity of further training.

Respectfully,
- jbd in Denver

[Alan DuBoff]

But the 19" saw with a 4" blade depth is not intended for crosscutting.
What you mean is that the 19" saw with a 4" depth, that IS NOT FILED crosscut.

I have to believe that a saw maker who would make a 19" x-large tenon saw with crosscut teeth would intend it's use to be for crosscutting.

But that was my point in regards to Chris' comments.

Chris had made other comments that the most useful saw is a crosscut saw, to be used with a hook or other freehand cuts across the grain.

There is no way for me to cut a 12" wide tenon with my 12" long tenon saw. In this case, I need a long tenon saw.
And for the rest of us it's good that there are few 12" tenons that we put in our projects. ;)

I agree with you Alan that a lot of folks have no need for a backsaw that long, however, for anyone that builds furniture sized pieces and cuts the joinery by hand, you need a long tenon saw. It doesn't need to be the 19" Kenyon that Chris Schwarz has but it needs to be longer than the 12-14" saws typically available if you plan to saw wide tenons.
I think it always gets down to looking at the task at hand. In some cases it can and will make sense.

Build for the style and type/quality of product that reflect the results you like to achieve, and get the saws that you would need for that.

I like long saws, but I like saws that work for the type of stock I'm working with.

I do not work with 12" tenons a lot, and not sure of your use, but I'm thinking of building a log home that would have that size of joinery on the porch, but I am not sure where I would use a 12" tenon in furniture making.

Most things I can feel comfortable working on 8/4 stock. I would probably still mix with 4/4. I used 4.5"x4.5" legs on my workbench, yet used a saw that was only 1 3/4" deep to cut the top tenons.

It all gets down to the task.

I like to think of it as:

1) size - depth, length
2) grain - with or against (pertaining to rip/xcut)
3) species - hardness/softness/attributes

Then I make an educated guess, file it a bit (this is a good habit), and use it. If it doesn't work well, I toss it over to the side and get another one...*lol*

Saws are a funny thing, I know that I have favorites, but it all gets down to the task at hand and using which ones you have which can be applied. If you don't have but a few, well, it's like having a few chisels. If you only had a 1/4" and 1/2" chisel for all your work, well, that would be less than desirable. ;)

[John Dykes]

What you mean is that the 19" saw with a 4" depth, that IS NOT FILED crosscut.

I have to believe that a saw maker who would make a 19" x-large tenon saw with crosscut teeth would intend it's use to be for crosscutting.

But that was my point in regards to Chris' comments.

Chris had made other comments that the most useful saw is a crosscut saw, to be used with a hook or other freehand cuts across the grain.What are you talking about?

What 19" crosscut saw are you stuck on?
Kenyon's isn't.
Chris's isn't.
Mike W.'s advertised one isn't.

Yes, from Chris's blog he says that the crosscut is his most used saw, and that tenon saws are filed rip for cutting tenon cheeks.

A Nest of Saws (http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/CommentView,guid,93d80047-0b89-47af-a54f-d56e6cf9ac7b.aspx)

I'm not sure who's wrong \ confused \ confusing here....

- jbd

[Alan DuBoff]

Through proof of experience, and results - I consider Chris to be one of the premier handtool experts of our time. In my view, he has earned that position through his integrity and passion to the craft.
Absolutely, certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise.

No angst on my part, not as you suggest.

I advocate to use the saw for the task at hand, not because someone said to use it. Considering Chris' opinion in regards to hand tools is a good thing, I've done it quite a bit myself. Still, I apply it to my own tools/work at hand.

John, I see we keep crossing posts, and we are so off base from each other, let's leave it at that. A saw is a saw, in length at type of tooth it is filed, if you think you need a 19" crosscut saw, get it. What I am saying is I recommend a smaller saw. for a crosscut before getting one that large.

[John Dykes]

if you think you need a 19" crosscut saw, get it.

[Deleted]

But Agreed Alan. I think we'd do better communicating w/ smoke signals. Not only are our postings crossing, so are our wires.

Take care and with respect,
- jbd in Denver

[Mike K Wenzloff]

I think, like John Dykes wrote, there is some confusion a goin' on.

No where has Chris Schwarz recommended a 19" (or even a 16") cross cut back saw. He does recommend long rip-filed tenon saws should one be hand cutting tenons.

And he does believe a cross cut carcass should be one of the first saws a user of saws buys. I would add (lucky I'm not an editor) a 14" cross cut sash saw for cutting stuff in conjunction with a bench hook is truly useful. More efficient than a carcass.

None of this is Chris' pure opinion nor speculation. These lengths, ppi ranges, etc., have been written about and recommended for a very long time. At least in print from the early 1800s.

Saws--or any tool--should be added to ones kit based upon repeated need. One can make due for the occasional need with what one has. If there is repeated need, then worry about additions if any.

If someone is only doing small joinery by hand, a short rip-filed back saw and a cross cut carcass saw would be the extent of need. Cutting tenons by hand, a rip-filed sash is darn handy to have. Increase the width of the tenon to 3" and a longer rip-filed tenon saw is efficient. The list goes on and on. But should be based upon need.

Unless one has a saw problem. Like me...

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Mike,

I think where this gets all crossed is in my reference to xcut or rip, to me all saws are filed one or the other. Just because a saw is called a tenon saw doesn't mean it will be filed rip, so I take some exception to someone like John Dykes saying that Chris states a tenon saw should be filed rip.

When I go to your site I see tenon saws, or all saws for that matter, available in xcut or rip, and to me a saw is a saw.

To me a carcass saw is 12" - 14" with a thinner plate than a small tenon saw, but names are just that, names. A carcass saw could have the same plate, it's all relative.

Going and reading a blog, book, or magazine, and buying tools on that recommendation will work fine if you build the same pieces that person does. I advocate looking at the actual work one needs to do, deciding what type of saw they need for that task.

I will continue making my own saws for my own needs. I will cut the teeth on them how I want, add the amount of set I feel will be good, and file them myself. I will do that for the work I need to do.

The original poster is wondering about size after reading or hearing about something Chris stated. Well, he should have known that a tenon saw is filed rip, John Dykes knows that after all...and silly me I thought that saws were filed both xcut and rip...:confused:

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Alan,

I think the OP had it straight--at least how I read the original inquiry. A saw for cutting tenons.

Chris uses his large tenon saw for smaller tenons than I do. It's just my personal history with saws. The large tenon is fine for smaller tenons like Chris will use it on. In fact, it's really good. I prefer the shorter 14" rip-filed sash at the smaller size of tenon he might use it on. Personal preference.

While words are words are words, the naming of saws, which has some overlap, has been around a while. Tis good to use established terms for communication sake.

For instance, I prefer the older term of sash saw to describe the commonly termed "small tenon" saw. To me it lessens confusion--which I perpetuate by using the "small tenon" moniker. Not really by choice, but there it is.

I don't think John Dykes had confusion as to the saw(s) he was referring to. In part I think it was using an abbreviation ("x") for "cross cut". Dunno. But from further posts I took it to be a rip-filed "extra large" tenon saw filed rip for the purpose of the bench tenons. He would be the person ultimately who knows what was meant. Just the way I read the posts.

I know I am pretty much not confused by the saws we've made--whether cross cut or rip. ;-)

Anyway, need to go home. At only a 12 hour day today, I feel like a slacker.

Take care, Mike

[John Dykes]

Unfortunately, out of respect of the group, I've pared my lengthy comments down to the following:

To the OP: As I tried to express in my first post, I have a small tenon saw from Adria. From the work that I've done (and as Robert expressed perfectly so long ago to your point), I really wish I had bought a Mike W. 19" tenon saw (filed rip, obviously). Please, regardless of what has been written here - please don't get a saw filed crosscut to cut tenons. That would be very bad practice. I'm not sure where all that came from...

Admittedly, I'm a hack, but I read, study, and try. Don't listen to me so much as others here. Additionally, Chris Schwartz is a handtool expert I respect highly; you would do well to listen to his advice. A 19" tenon saw that isn't filed crosscut would be a very valuable tool indeed.

Lastly to Alan DuBoff:


so I take some exception to someone like John Dykes saying that Chris states a tenon saw should be filed rip

I offer Chris's blog entry "Nest of Saws" dated 3/11/08 from www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog (http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog):


3. Tenon saw: I have a few tenon saws. I prefer a saw that is about 10 points, though saws that are as fine as 13 points are OK by me (as long as the rake isn't significantly relaxed). Tenon saws start at 12" long, though I recommend the longer ones. Shoot for 14" at least; they make them as long as 19", which are surprisingly easy to wield. All tenon saws should be filed with rip teeth. They are designed to rip tenon cheeks.

For tenons - long IS good. Rip IS good.

And please, call me John, or jbd, or dumbass, or knucklehead. Reading "John Dykes" repeatedly made me feel.... creepy.

- jbd (who did very well keeping his emotions in check :o )

[Pedro Reyes]

So, I don't want to get into this, not the back and forth part.

As a note, cutting tenons usually involves between 4 or 8 cuts, half rip, half crosscut. So a tenon saw is??? ;). Altho, I must say that usually when you say tenon saw, I hear rip, and I use a carcass saw (x-cut) to cut the shoulders.

Anyway, the reason I am writing is because someone mentioned that if you had to cut a 12" tenon then a 12" saw would not be any good (BTW as a comment, a 48" saw would be needed for this 12" tenon if we consider the comment that a 12" saw is small for a 3" tenon).

My real question is would anyone use a saw to cut anything more than 8"? Or for like a breadboard end, that is similar to a tenon right? I would plane it, with a rabbet plane, not saw it.

Is that unusual?

peace

/p

[Alan DuBoff]

As a note, cutting tenons usually involves between 4 or 8 cuts, half rip, half crosscut. So a tenon saw is??? ;). Altho, I must say that usually when you say tenon saw, I hear rip, and I use a carcass saw (x-cut) to cut the shoulders.
Me and you are on the same page, I don't know how the others cut tenon shoulders to be honest, I use a crosscut saw, rip for the cheeks as I had stated all along in this thread. So, I can say that I am certainly on the same page with you.

My real question is would anyone use a saw to cut anything more than 8"? Or for like a breadboard end, that is similar to a tenon right? I would plane it, with a rabbet plane, not saw it.

Is that unusual?No, it's not unusual, and that is what I would do myself. I might cut the shuolder with a crosscut saw before I planed it, but that depends on how the grain is facing for the piece I'm working. If the breadboard was with the grain (I don't think that's a good design), I would use a rip. I always select my saw based on the grain for the most part, whether xcut or rip, and that is what I suggest the OP does.

[Joel Goodman]

Thank you to all for a very lively and informative discussion! What I'm getting is that for a first tenon (or sash) saw a 14" (filed rip) is not a bad choice. In the future I may want to add a 16" - 20" if the need arises.