Shop Safety - What Not to Do

[michael gallagher]

This was posted on my local turning club's discussion board today, and certainly defines what not to do - make sure you watch it to the end - and should be used as a demo tutorial for all beginning turner's on how to get seriously injured with a lathe.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuZDaF48oD0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuZDaF48oD0)


sanding with the tool rest, choice of tools, using the sandpaper backwards, terminology and, interestingly, how to part off a mini baseball bat with a hacksaw at 3,250 RPM's. Amazing.

I hope posting to an outside link like this isn't going to get me moderated again, but this is too good to pass up.

[David Walser]

That's painful to watch!

[Bernie Weishapl]

That must be the one that uses a saw, a straighter tool and a rounder tool at 3900 rpm with no safety equipment? I was waiting to for the bat to bonk him a good one when he parted it off with that saw.

[Jon Lanier]

I can't believe he still has the video up. :confused:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

And....should one of those tools break while he's hanging them over the tool rest.......using them in a scraper mode..........He will probably sue them.

[Keith Christopher]

I was waiting for his fingers to get sucked in between the toolrest and the piece. I am speechless. someone should send him Norm's intro to every show. you know "be sure to read and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools...."

[Greg Ketell]

And with all that high quality, super safe turning he produced one of the finest bats I have ever seen! NOT!

Yikes. No wonder I have no good luck, he sucks up 100,000 peoples' good luck just staying alive!!

GK

[Jim Koepke]

I am new at turning.
My basic instruction has been at some night classes at a local High School.
The instructor showed me how to prepare the wood, chuck it in the lathe and set up. After that he said have fun with the tools.

I have spun a few handles for my socket chisels.

But I do not know what not to do.

All the comments make no sense to me.

Have there been tutorial posts in the past that can be looked up so one can learn not to injure them self while enjoying the spinning arts?

I mostly hang with the neanders. The lathe will likely be the only power tool in my shop to get much use. Heck, I have a router but end up cutting most of my dados with a hand saw, chisels and a plane.
Have a ROSander, but do that by hand a lot also.

thanks for any help,

jim

[Jeff Nicol]

Good morning all! That has got to be the scariest bad technique video I have ever seen! It just proves that anyone can buy a tool of there choosing and if you don't read the instructions and learn the basics of the tool, dangerous things can happen! There are many good books, videos on line tutorials and local woodturners clubs that can help anyone who is unfamiliar with the basic use of a lathe. Like we have all been told the dumb questions are the ones that are not asked! So to all the new turners of the world ask all the questions you can, and this forum is a great place to start!

Have a great day and work safe!

Jeff

[Don Eddard]

But I do not know what not to do.

All the comments make no sense to me.




He's turning too fast for most people's comfort. Especially for roughing a square blank.
He's using a skew as a scraper, which in itself isn't really a cardinal sin, but it's not good technique. Especially for roughing out a square blank.
He doesn't adjust his tool rest as the blank gets smaller. As a result he's extending the tool farther off the tool rest than is prudent. The tool is more likely to break or be thrown from your hands in the event of a catch.
He's sanding with the tool rest in a position where if the sandpaper happened to catch, his fingers could be sucked in between the tool rest and spindle. It would not be pretty.
He uses the wrong side of the sandpaper at about 5:20 into the video. That's just a general indication of his lack of understanding of the process.
Sanding at 3950 rpm will not give as good of results as sanding at a much slower speed.
From the sound of his voice, I don't think he's wearing face protection. My guess is that he hasn't been hit in the face. Yet.
He's parting off WAY too fast and with no control.
Using the hacksaw to part off the piece is dangerous in so many ways I lost count. You can see in the video how it shoots off the lathe. It can do that throughout 360 degrees, including right into his head.

I'm sure I missed a few, but I hope that helps.

[Brian Brown]

My first thought was what a moron! My second thought was how unfortunate he has no one to teach him, or is unwilling to let somebody teach him. I read the youtube comments from those that saw the vid, and nobody encouraged him to find a mentor. They just made mean comments. Too bad.

His technique kind of reminds me of the Home Improvement TV show... More speed More power, more, more, more,... grunt, grunt, grunt.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I love the end - "there we go...the piece is off"...yah, no kidding.

[Greg Ketell]

Hi Jim,

Where to start? When you first start rounding something over there is a lot of torque applied to the wood as the corners hit. Usually your first few cuts you want to do lightly to make sure things are fully secure.

And that brings up speed. If you Do have a catch, at nearly 4000 RPM that chunk of flying wood becomes a deadly missile. You usually want to round the stock slower and only kick up the speed once it is round and less likely to catch/shatter.

When you are cutting you want to go from high to low, ie from where you haven't cut to where you have. Going "uphill" can cause a catch that can hurt and/or damage your turning. Admittedly he is using very soft wood and a round nosed scraper so that is less of a risk.

When you use the tools one of the most important things is that your forward hand is pushing the tool down onto the tool rest and rubbing against the tool rest to control the depth of the cut so you get nice even passes which 1) reduce your chance of catches, 2) result in smoother cuts with less gouging. If you notice his turning he doesn't support the tool and his cuts are very random.

You also want the tool supported as close to the work as possible. He starts out well with the tool rest withing about 1/8" but never moves it so ends up with the tools hanging out there over an inch. On anything other than that soft wood he is using that would result in tool chatter and poor quality workmanship.

Add that to his technique with the tools, which is very course. He has no finesse at all. Shove and cut. And that shows up in his turning. For making a "baseball bat" that is very poorly shaped.

When it comes to sanding you want to sand on the bottom of the turning because if the sandpaper snags you want it pulled away from you and your fingers pulled straight. If you sand on top like he does and it snags it will fold your fingers potentially jamming your knuckles. And if you still have the toolrest there it can pull your fingers down between the rest and the spinning piece and OUCH. You should always move the tool rest out of the way before sanding.

You also want to sand at slower speeds so you get less sanding marks.

Where are you located? There are turners all over the country and I'm sure there are people who would be more than willing to mentor you and show you "good" technique in your area.

GK




I am new at turning.
My basic instruction has been at some night classes at a local High School.
The instructor showed me how to prepare the wood, chuck it in the lathe and set up. After that he said have fun with the tools.

I have spun a few handles for my socket chisels.

But I do not know what not to do.

All the comments make no sense to me.

Have there been tutorial posts in the past that can be looked up so one can learn not to injure them self while enjoying the spinning arts?

I mostly hang with the neanders. The lathe will likely be the only power tool in my shop to get much use. Heck, I have a router but end up cutting most of my dados with a hand saw, chisels and a plane.
Have a ROSander, but do that by hand a lot also.

thanks for any help,

jim

[Bill Bolen]

Yes his methods are scary as can be. But, he sure seems to be having fun! Just imagine how much fun he would be having if he were doings things in a correct and safe manner! Wish he lived down the street from me. I think even with my slight experience he could be helped to enjoy this hobby and have his eyes and fingers intact. Might even get something off the lathe that looks like a bat!...Bill...

[Gary Herrmann]

Finally watched it. Yikes. Hopefully he doesn't get hurt before he talks to someone about turning or gets a book or vid.

The hacksaw technique gave me the willies.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

That was pretty much the list I saw. It's something of a nit but he used everything presented as a scraper. Wow.

The "problem" I would add to your list is that he parted off on the live center end rather than on the drive center side. I kept waiting for him to get in real trouble with something/anything that he was doing. My goodness!

Joshua


I'm sure I missed a few, but I hope that helps.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for the response,

I am not sure about the "using a tool as a scraper" remarks, but maybe I can watch the video again and figure that out.

One video shows a person using a parting tool by starting near the top of the turning and lifting the handle to bring it toward the center as opposed to "stabbing" or going straight in. Is this good, bad or so-so technique?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_43nB2zTX8

Thanks again, I want to turn, but I also want to keep all my fingers, toes, teeth and eyes.

jim

[Jim Burr]

Jim, there are some great "How To" video's on the market. IMHO, the lathe is second only to the table saw in scary potential. If possible, find a group or an experienced turner in your part of the country and get some good tips and instruction. A lot of people fail at turning due to the scare factor. Those that succeed have had some good tip and "over-the-shoulder" instruction. Don't be afraid of it...just respect it.

[Greg Ketell]

Jim,

You want to start with the parting tool "too high" on the piece so it is rubbing but not cutting, then pull down and in until it just starts to cut. Once cutting you want to lift the handle and push in to keep it in the same relative spot on the material. ie if it started cutting at 11 o'clock then you need to lift and push to keep it at 11 o'clock as the clock face changes size. If you lift only you will move down the clock face to 10 and to 9 at which point it may catch and scare the stuffing out of you. If you push only then it will move up to 12 o'clock and stop cutting. So a coordinated "lift and push" is the motion you want.

A scraping cut is one that you use the edge of the tool below the midline of the work and the wood is "scraped" off. If the tool is above the center line then the wood is "cut" off. Scraping is safer and easier but produces a far lower quality to the finish-turned piece because of potential for tear-out.

Most scrapers have an "undercut" blade so that when you hold it below center the cutting edge still points up a bit so you get a slight cutting action but you can't have a snag (the work pulling the tool deeper into the wood than the turner intents) and you can't "gouge" the work. But in using the skew as a scraper (his "straightening tool") he has a tool where the cutting edge is pointing down, away from the wood so it truly is just scraping the wood.

Keep asking questions, we are all more than happy to answer so you become as comfortable and happy with your tools as you can be.

GK



Thanks for the response,

I am not sure about the "using a tool as a scraper" remarks, but maybe I can watch the video again and figure that out.

One video shows a person using a parting tool by starting near the top of the turning and lifting the handle to bring it toward the center as opposed to "stabbing" or going straight in. Is this good, bad or so-so technique?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_43nB2zTX8

Thanks again, I want to turn, but I also want to keep all my fingers, toes, teeth and eyes.

jim

[John Sheets]

I second all the above comments regarding poor technique, etc. What really bothers me is that he apparently thinks he is some sort of expert, and he's going to display his skill on the internet and impress everyone. It wouldn't have been so bad if he had said "I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm putting this out on the internet anyway".
Had to chuckle when he said "this may be a little rough" and need some sanding. Yeah, my chainsaw cuts are probably as smooth as this.
I also liked the part when he couldn't get the dull skew to scrape any more, so he just turned it over, pushed harder, and apparently hoped the second side was not as dull.
This is a good visual lesson that all the expert opinions you read online _may not be quite what they seem_.
JS

[Bob Hamilton]

Hi, Jim:
If you can picture taking your nice, sharp bench chisel, standing it up vertically on a board clamped to your bench, and then pushing it across the grain of the board, that is basically what he is doing with his tools. Sure, there are some rare instances when you would want to do that, but normally you would lay the chisel down and pare the wood. The equivalent of paring on a lathe is to hold the tool with the handle well down so the bevel of the tool is rubbing on the wood and then pivot the handle up until the sharp edge starts to cut a shaving while the bevel controls the depth of cut.

In the video of the parting tool you posted, the arcing technique is the best way to use it. Pushing straight in causes the edge to scrape instead of cut so leaves a much rougher surface and more torn end grain. I did not have the sound on when I watched it so I don't know if he was explaining what he was doing or not, but he seemed to know what he was doing.

Take care
Bob

[Rasmus Petersen]

Peter galbert master chair maker. Maker of the Glabert Calipers.. a measuring toll i would love to own...

He knows what he´s doing... the 120% opposite of the other dude

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim,

About using a parting tool...there are two modes of use....using it in a cutting mode or paring mode as you describe and using it in a scraping mode. The cutting or paring mode produces a cleaner, smoother finish on the area where you are cutting ...but....it often leaves a lot of splinters, if you will, on the shoulder you are creating in the process. When used in the scraping mode, it will leave the shoulder cleaner but mess up the surface you are creating. So....I will sometimes, start the cutting operation using a very gentle, almost subtle scraping mode so the outer shoulder has a a clean cut, then withdraw and reposition the parting tool and finish the parting cut using the paring or cutting mode.

[Denny Rice]

OMG!! I had to watch the video twice. (the first time I watched it with my hands over my eyes with two fingers just barely split apart from each other to see just a little) When he started out with a piece of square stock at 3,900 RPM's I thought he was going to lose a finger or the tool was going to come out of his hand. Whats even more frightening is this guy thinks he knows what he is doing, he never stopped the lathe once and adjusted the tool rest as the stock became smaller. He has put this video on youtube as a teaching tool for others, if he continues to do this he will lose a finger its just a matter of time. This video should be pulled.

[Rasmus Petersen]

Why are all of you that scared that we are talking fast square stock ?? i easily run square stock at 3000 for roughing to round....easy up to 3x3 4x4...
But then again im not using the straighteningstool... and have a just a bit bigger lathe (3520B and a BIG roughing gouge). . .

When you do this right then this non essential part og the job dosent take long :-):cool:

[Andy Hoyt]

Sure would add to the guy's credibility if he knew the proper names for his tools.

[Bob Hallowell]

Sure would add to the guy's credibility if he knew the proper names for his tools.

You mean rounder and Straightener aren't right? Man that Bernie guy has been given me wrong info:D Next thing your going to tell me is the tool I use thats round with a flute to hollow out bowls and till the catch isn't called a flipp'en stick. cause it flips em right off the lathe.

Bob

[Bruce Smith]

I feel sorry for the poor fellow. Fact of the matter is that some other green horn turner will see this video and copy his technique.

[GLENN THOMAS]

I read all the comments on youtube and most of the post on SMC and no one has noticed the scariest thing of all. I you look at his shirt you can see a Maltese Cross on it. He is either a fireman or a volunteer. Hope he doesn't have to pull me out of a burning building some day. But then again he should know how to provide first aid for himself.

GT

[ernie riley]

I am self taught...but that doesn't mean dangerous or stupid. Most of us would rough that piece round from one end to the other so we could advance the tool rest in close to the work for more support for our tools (notice how far the rest ends up from the work surface at the end of the video.) We would run it at 1200 to 2000 to rough it and would present the tools to the work in a much better angle. There are many more major things he is doing wrong....probably better to forget you ever saw it. I know it made me nervous!

ernie

[michael gallagher]

I will admit I am surprised at the number of views of this thread - when I first posted it, I thought it would onyl get a few comments. I've looked at it again at least 7-8 times in the past few days and still scratch my head. He also has auto post on viewer comments!

So, let me ask you a quick question - how many of you, like me, over the past few days as you pulled out your skew mentally thought "straightener" or the bowl gouge thought "rounder?"

I'm with the Bernie and Ken camp, and like my straightener more and more each day.