Flattening sole #5 tale of Woe...

[Vivian Ecker]

Hello Everyone,

I'm Needing Help...

I'm a beginner woodworker with some advanced training in futility. I successfully flattened the sole of a new/modern Stanley#4 a few years ago while a student in the Fundamentals of Fine Woodworking class at the North Bennett Street School in Boston. But now I'm on my own and having great difficulty with my used Bailey #5. I have a piece of glass that's about 3/8" thick and flat within about .001" along its 20" length and 8 inch width. It sits on a not truly flat but pretty close piece of board (melamine faced shelf board) on a workbench top that is not truly flat. I affixed Norton "3X" 100 grit sandpaper to the glass with spray adhesive (3M #77) and started lapping the sole. The plane was fully assembled and the blade fully retracted.

Things seemed to be getting better - until they started getting worse. At the end of it all I have a slightly convex sole: the toe and heel are out of flat with the area around the mouth by about .0015". Looking at flatness across the sole: out of flat with a wandering midline lengthwise "hump" by .001-.002" or more. I'm guessing the errors are due to my lapping technique - my grip on the plane, stance, etc. - and maybe also the lack of a truly flat lapping surface.

So now I am not sure where to go from here. I would very much like to get this thing done successfully myself but I am 5'6" tall woman with medium sized hands, not especially strong, and now wonder if I am capable of accurately lapping a plane this large. I also have an old used #7 that needs tuning. I am not going to be able to fettle that one by hand... (right?)

Do you all have any advice or technique suggestions?

I have a Grizzly 9x12 granite surface but this #5 plane is 14 inches long so I can't use that plate - is this correct?

If the conclusion is that I should go to a machinist, does anyone know of a machinist in eastern Massachusetts/Boston area that does a good job with flattening handplane soles and getting the sides exactly square to the sole?

Thanks very much for your help!
Vivian

[Johnny Kleso]

First your dont need the sides square unless your shooting and then only one side needs to be..

The longer the plane the MUCH harder you have to work at flatting..

I have to ask what are you using to check the plane sole?

Also I would put the glass and wood on something really flat as well, like my TS or jointer table..
With a long piece of glass like you have it can bend if on an out of square surface..

A small granite block from ENCO is what I use..
If you join their mailing list on their home page ever month they send a free shipping code for orders over $50 and under 100lbs

Here is this month ad
Free UPS Shipping* on your Enco order of $50 or more! Just place your order at use-enco.com (http://specialoffer.use-enco.com/ct/3560765:4042430244:m:1:106950279:3DA266EBDB2FDF7EC 5F922C0399B7D67) and enter promo code WB9TP on the shopping cart page before you click checkout, or mention the code to your friendly sales associate when you call 800-USE-ENCO....you'll get Free UPS Shipping*.


On a No5 if your sole is only off .0015 thats about as good as LN says they make thier planes I think..

If not its plenty good enough for planing wood IMHO

.0015 is a 1/2 of hair or 1/2 a sheet of paper


I just checked and the 12x18 is the biggest you can get 85lbs and its $36 so you need to order somthing less light weight to get to $50 the 18x24 is $51 but weights 180lbs

[Wiley Horne]

Hi Vivian,

Please stop lapping. Lapping works so long as the starting surface is concave. But once it's convex, more lapping will tend to make things even more convex.

The next thing I would suggest is verify the current condition of the sole. Your surface plate is 9" x 12". That means it has a 15" diagonal, which is just fine for testing your No. 5 plane. Put the plane on the diagonal of the plate and find out if it rocks--this is to verify convexity.

If it is truly convex, then you will want to know about how much. Feeler gauges would be good if you have them, but a cheap feeler gauge is a piece of ordinary paper--a sticky note is about 4 thou, which may give you some idea.

If the plane is convex, then to true it by hand will require that you identify the high spot on the sole it is rocking on, and then knock that high spot down by rubbing on it with abrasive paper. There are ways to do this, but first do the diagnostic on the granite plate, and we can go from there.

Wiley

[John Dykes]

Welcome to the Creek! You're in the right place for sure...

Guess my first question is... How well does you plane work?

A slightly convex (toe,end - a bit higher) sole is fine! And Lord, .0015 sounds pretty good to me!

You can get carried away with this flattening business, but I think you're probably best served by calling it perfect and moving on.

Take the time you'd use on the sole, and work on the blade and give it a shot!

Thoughts?

- jbd in Denver

[John Keeton]

Vivian, go to your nearest granite countertop fabricator and they will have all shapes and sizes of scraps - usually free or very close to it. I stopped by the one here in town, and there were 30 -40 cutoffs of various sizes and various stones. Others may have differing opinions, but I would think these would be flat enough to get the job done.

[Marcus Ward]

How well did the plane work before you started? What was it doing that led you to feel it needed the full treatment?

[Phillip Pattee]

Flat is a relative term. You cannot achieve flatness in excess of your glass and sandpaper. Keep in mind that this is a jack plane, which is generally used for taking off more material before smoothing, and that you are working with wood, which changes shape and dimension with temperature, humidity, etc. It is probably flat enough.:)

[Johnny Kleso]

Oh,
Its more convex than you can stand you want to hold you plane is a woodworks vise close to the sole and not ovely tight so you dont crack the casting..

Then you need a stick 3/4 x 2-3" x 12"+ and wrap it with sand paper and use it like a draw knife to sand some out of the middle and them back to you flat surface for sanding..

And WELCOME missed that the first time :)

[Vivian Ecker]

Thank you all for your responses!

Johnny K,
I'm using a Lee Valley-Veritas 24" steel straight edge to check the flatness.
And thank you for the link to Enco. I would love to have a larger surface plate. 12 x 18 is probably the biggest I could accomodate - my shop is quite small but it just might be important enough to find room for it.
Thanks for your suggestion about clamping it and using sandpaper around a stick as a drawknife - I like that idea - and also thanks for your kind welcome!

Hi Wiley,
No more lapping! Although it is hard to resist the urge.
I just did a careful check of the "airspace" between the perimeter of the sole and my granite surface plate using feeler gauges. The gaps at the toe measure between .0015 and almost .003, at the starboard and port sides .001 to .0015, and at the heel the gap is .002 to about .0025. I also checked the sole lengthwise and crosswise with my straight edge and by rubbing the sole on a piece of blue-side-up carbon paper on the surface plate. The areas of the sole that are convex (picked up some blue) ran down the midline of the sole and were the area from just behind the knob to the mouth, just behind the mouth for about an inch, and just behind the handle for about an inch.
Diagnostics completed - looking forward to further instructions! Thanks!

Hi John Dykes,
Thanks for your reply and your warm welcome! You give sage and reasonable advice. Before I started this tuning business it worked fairly well for rough work. But then I decided to give the David Charlesworth plane treatment a try. And look where it's gotten me now;).
I was hoping to use this plane for reliable flattening of several 5 foot lengths of Southern Yellow Pine to make a flat workbench top. I bought it well-dimensioned. I have stored this wood in my shop at nice 35-45% relative humidity for months but now it's got quite a bit of wind and cupping.

Hi John Keeton,
Thanks for your advice! I actually have a piece of granite that is nice and large and was destined for a kitchen microwave cart. I dragged it home only to see that it is somewhat dished, not flat. I have been going around in circles for a while. If I lug another 70+ pound granite object into my home I think it's gotta have Grade A or B written on it.

Hi Marcus,
The plane worked OK but I thought it was important for me to get it up to A+ shape in order to get things truly flat. I'm interested in your thoughts. Thanks for your reply!

Hi Philip,
Thanks for your reply. What you said makes good sense. I am just trying to find a way to get control of the tools and thereby the wood. I know about that wood movement thing - seems like wood is still alive after it's dead.

Thanks again to you all!
Vivian

[Marcus Ward]

When I first started with this vintage plane business I, like you, felt it was important to get the planes absolutely frickin flat so they'd work properly. As time went on, and as I gathered more planes, laziness set in and I started using them without fiddling with them any more than cleaning off the accumulated years of mung and sharpening the blade as well as I could. I find that pretty much any of them that have made the trip forward in time 100 years are probably okay and likely got whatever treatment was needed to make them work properly before I was even born. Any that were so effed up as to be unusable probably ended up in the trash, sent back to the manufacturer, or are pristine 'never used' examples we find on ebay from time to time. The point of this long-winded dissertation is that if you've got a plane, it probably is fine. Some of them aren't - I'm sure that for every plane I have in my collection there is a person on here who could post his tale of fettling follies and foibles in which the plane was actually banana shaped before the brave soul spent hours sweating over a lump of granite turning his or her plane into a work of art. However, for every one of those I bet there are a thousand or more that you can use directly out of the box, as it were (priority mail box?). As long as you can use it to the degree required for whatever work you're doing then my best advice is don't fiddle or fettle! Just sharpen and go!

Here's a tip though for your now boat-bottomed plane: Use a mill file and push it across the sole to fix the high spots. Use your straightedge often, you can even try to flex the file slightly into the plane so that you're sure you're taking material out of the middle. If you've never seen a machinist use a file that way, don't think of it as filing long-stroke. Lay the file perpendicular across the sole of the plane and push it fore and aft on the sole with your thumbs on the file over the center. It'll remove very small amounts of material very precisely. Draw filing with finesse, as it were. Once you've got it flat, lightly sand to remove file marks and never fettle unless absolutely necessary!

[Wiley Horne]

Hello Vivian,

Wow, those are great diagnostics! Are you sure you haven't been at this for some time? Very impressive.

What to do.....read what John Kleso and Marcus Ward said. You want to cut down (draw file) the portions of the center line that are showing carbon blue. Then repeat the diagnostic, then cut some more. You can do this with either a file or with sand paper.

The question will then arise--when to quit? If it were my plane, I wouldn't want to take 3 thou of metal off the entire sole, in order to get it dead flat from toe to heel. That is machine work. I think I would concentrate on the more interior portions, say from the knob to the tote. You want to work from the inside out anyway, given the diagnostics that you have.

You will need to cut the centerline down to at least flat before resuming lapping, because otherwise the sole will reconvex, and you will wind up right back where you are now. I suggest you not think about lapping as your final flattening step. Instead think about the draw-filing (with file or sandpaper) as the final flattening step, and any additional lapping you do will just be cosmetic--indeed, you could skip it.

As I say, I would concentrate on taking the left-right rocking out of the sole, and getting it flat from knob to tote, then see how you like using the plane. The left-right rocking will give an erratic shaving, so it really does need to come out.

Are you sure you haven't done this before??

Wiley

[George Beck]

Many years ago, I ran across a Record 08 jointer plane in a hardware store. Knowing this plane had been discontinued at the time and the fact that it was $30 prompted me to buy it. I noticed when I got home that the sole was convex. After Lapping it on a piece of glass for hours I was about to decide in using it as a new door stop. Here is the unconventional method I used; First make sure your lapping surface is really, really flat. I went to a local granite top dealer and bought a "cut off" piece of granite, about 40 in X 4 in. x 3/4" I mounted this on a piece of mdf and clamped the beast to the work bench. I marked with a sharpie the front and back of the mouth, the toe, the heel and a thin line down the sides(these are the critical areas. I lapped the plane with 80 grit sandpaper attached with 3M 77. I noticed the ink remained on the front and heel of the plane. I then came up with this unconventional method. I used an extra corse DMT diamond stone (also great for flatting corse water stones) and "scrubbed" diagonally across the center and mouth of the plane using water as a lubricant. I then returned to the lapping table and noticed the ink still remained on the front and rear but I was moving closer. I used files and a green stone (extra corse about 60 grit) to Scub away high areas and returned to the lapping table. BTW the plane sole looked terrible and I was convinced I had ruined it. I change the sandpaper to fresh sanding belt and noticed I was starting to remove the sharpie lines. Much like sharping, once the corse terrible looking lines are even I proceeded through 360 grit and achieved a very flat, very large plane. The whole process took days and many sanding belts and I doubt I would ever repeat the process but in summary.1) Get a truly flat reference surface (plate glass, old jointer table, granite) for lapping. 2)Knock off the high spots any way you can. 3)Mark the important parts of the plane for matching. 4) Save your money and buy a truly flat plane.
Welcome to the creek. You are now doomed.
George

[Ron Petley]

It might be a moot point to mention that when lapping you should move the plane in a figure eight motion.
Cheers Ron.

[Zahid Naqvi]

have you ever entertained the thought of a wooden jointer. They are much easier to flatten, and if you are not comfortable with the adjustment mechanism of a wooden plane you can get a transitional plane which has the usual Stanley mechanism for depth adjustment. There are several listed on eBay.
Welcome to the creek:D

[michael osadchuk]

....thanks for the discussion, particularly on how to use a file to reduce the high spots on a convex sole and and the caution not to lap (to remove the file scratches) until the sole is flat.....

...I've read several cautions against lapping plane soles to a remove a convex shape but this the first time I've read on how to safely remove it (not that I'm tempted to do the work to achieve a perfect plane sole, btw)


thanks

michael

[Vivian Ecker]

Your advice and wisdom are greatly appreciated!

Hi Marcus,
Thanks for your advice and detailed description. I look forward to using the technique you describe. Hopefully it will lead me to a fettle-free finale.

Hi Wiley,
Thanks for your generous compliment and your additional instructions. I haven't done this before but I have learned about the importance of a thou or two, multiple measurements, and chalk fitting through my student-level efforts at guitar building and restoration.

Hi George,
Thanks for your reply! That's a great description, including the summary at the end. I think working on this #5 will be a warm up for the "Big Guy" #7 that's on the shelf. Unless I come to my senses and just follow your final instruction "4)"... But that would be too logical. Yes, you're right, I am doomed.

Hi Ron,
Thanks for your advice! What grip do you suggest on the plane during lapping?

Hi Zahid,
I actually had the same thought last night. But I think at this point I'm not quite ready to move to another style of plane. I'm just getting used to the metal bodied planes that I have. I've already invested time and $ in them so I think I'll stick it out with them for a while longer. Thanks for your reply!

Thanks again to you all! I will post a progress report once I've made some. Or even if I haven't.
Best regards,
Vivian

[Zahid Naqvi]

Ok, since you are sticking with the metal bodied planes I'll share my experience with flattening a #7 and a #5. Since most of us favor one hand (right or left), repetitive motions -such as the back and forth of a plane body over sandpaper- will tend to amplify this difference. To neutralize the possibility that you might be pushing down more strongly by your right hand compared to the left, keep changing the orientation of the plane. That is, hold the tote with the right hand and the knob with left, after 10-15 strokes switch the plane around. Also alternate pushing and pulling. In short the more you vary the direction of planing and the grip the less chance there is that you will exagerate any difference in pressure between the two hands.

Also keep in mind that the three critical areas that must be in the same plane (as in level) are the front end and back end of the sole, and the area just in front of the mouth. Everything else doesn't matter. Look at the Japanese planes as an example, which are purposely built like that. Although the plane should not rock from side to side.

[Greg Cole]

Vivian,
I just got my hands on my first vintage plane this week, a "big guy #7". I spend a few hours cleaning off the years of neglect, filed a couple boogers off the frog and got the iron nastily sharp. Made a few nice long curlies with it tonight and I'm calling it done.
Sole is pretty flat, with in @ a slip of paper front to back..... I will have some pics etc tomorrow. I like it already... setting the iron's a tad more fiddley than a new plane but still just setting an iron just the same.
Greg

[Vivian Ecker]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your post - can't wait to see your photos!

Vivian

[Tom Henderson2]

It might be a moot point to mention that when lapping you should move the plane in a figure eight motion.
Cheers Ron.

Hi Ron-

I know that is true when lapping round flanges, etc. But I'm not so sure it is a good idea when lapping very long and narrow objects like a plane.

Seems like it is likely to lead to convexity...

Wondering what others think.

-TH

[Johnny Kleso]

It might be a moot point to mention that when lapping you should move the plane in a figure eight motion.
Cheers Ron.

Hi Ron,
At one time I was refinishing planes to eran some extra money and what I found back and forth was the best method..

What happens is you wear the edges and your high in the center and you plane will almost rock front to back and side to side..

That is the correct method for a lot of lapping but it did not work well for me..

[Vivian Ecker]

Dear SMC Friends,

I am delighted to report that I have succeeded! I implemented your suggestions, first sanding out the peak of the convexity on the plane sole, very carefully, frequently checking with my straight edge, never touching the perimeter of the sole. When I had excavated it to my satisfaction I lapped it on a very carefully prepared 3/8 inch thick glass plate supported on the flattest thing in my shop - a piece of mdf, no less. I used completely different ergonomics and plane grip and Voila! The sole meets LN flatness tolerances! Long, Beautiful Shavings! Did you ever notice the shimmery silking of a Home Depot 2x4 in the moonlight after taking a 2 thou pass? Makes me want to sing and dahnce a-gain!

Thank you all so much for your kindness and advice!
This is just the beginning...:D

Vivian

[Marcus Ward]

That's pretty awesome, Viv. Congrats.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Dear SMC Friends,

This is just the beginning...:D

Vivian

Yup! this is the begining of the slippery slope;) you have been warned, once you have seen and touched thin curlies you can't turn back.

[Vivian Ecker]

That's pretty awesome, Viv. Congrats.
Thanks, Marcus! I appreciate your sage advice and Congrats.
Best wishes,
Viv

[Vivian Ecker]

Yup! this is the begining of the slippery slope;) you have been warned, once you have seen and touched thin curlies you can't turn back.
I can see that, Zahid. Look at where it's led you: Moderator!
Thanks again and best wishes,
Viv

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Yup! this is the begining of the slippery slope;) you have been warned, once you have seen and touched thin curlies you can't turn back.
I do like the shavings from a plane--any plane--set to take fine shavings. I really do. But darn near any plane with a sharp iron can do that. Nothing much special about it.

What we as hand tool users should get excited about is hogging off thick, heavy pieces and proclaim "look how quickly this plane brought me to 4-square and thickness."

Think about it. In the scheme of things, how long does one use a smoother on a surface compared to the planes preceding it? As a comparison of time and effort, the smoother is a little used plane versus a jack, fore and try plane.

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I think the focus on wispy shavings is a lopsided one.*

Take care, Mike

*Unless one only is mainly using a smoother versus the other bench planes, of course.

[Robert Rozaieski]

What we as hand tool users should get excited about is hogging off thick, heavy pieces and proclaim "look how quickly this plane brought me to 4-square and thickness."

Think about it. In the scheme of things, how long does one use a smoother on a surface compared to the planes preceding it? As a comparison of time and effort, the smoother is a little used plane versus a jack, fore and try plane.

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I think the focus on wispy shavings is a lopsided one.*


I'll drink to that! Couldn't agree more. My smoother, while set up to take cotton soft shavings that basically turn to dust when you touch them, is the least used bench plane in my shop. Fore, try and jointer get way more playing time, but then I don't use machines for preparing lumber. By the way Mike, my best time is 8 minutes for a 12" x 36" board, however, this is for one face, not 4 square as I don't 4 square that often right from the get go. I'll usually 2 square, match plane, glue and then finish plane the panel after the glue dries. Four squaring of a board is usually saved for drawer sides, which are typically pretty small and don't usually take too long. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

No Hijack at all. Tis a discussion--and the OP's issues has been overcome!

I've used this picture before at least on WN. But here it is again. This pane my mother-in-law bought at a garage sale. Gave it to my wife.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/handyman/slides/handy_0004.jpg

And the sole:

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/handyman/slides/handy_0005.jpg

My wife sharpened the blade with a 2k grit stone I had in the house, threw it back onto that lovely painted frog and...

http://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/handyman/slides/handy_0003.jpg

Made some shavings. It would only avoid chatter as is to about a 10 thou shaving. But the thinner ones worked fine for such a plane.

I was being a little pointed above. I don't dimension all my stuff by hand as some do. More now that I am not building things for others again. Well, when I can find shop time...

I do resaw with a BS. Probably always will. While resawing divides a board, it opens it to movement stresses. Those I still beat up on with planes. I do pick my lumber well. And if I need to resaw in the direction of grain run-out I will--closest thing to riving that I will get. This makes for an easier time dealing with most released stresses. But they still need beat into some degree of submission.

It is that process that requires the heavier shavings. Depending on the woods one uses, and for the amount of wood a typical free-standing or wall hung piece uses, it isn't onerous nor does it take a significantly greater amount of time than all machines.

My mind does still operate in machine mode as regards dimensions. Still haven't brought myself to go all Cherubini on a piece. So I do square things up. Old habits die hard.

Well, time to hit the books again.

Take care, Mike

[Michael Schwartz]

The entire sole does not need to be flat. You only need a flat reference point at the toe, in front of the mouth, and at the heel. Those three reference points should be flat in relation to each other. It is ok if you have hollows in between them and it will not affect the performance.

Keep in mind that woodworking is not rocket science and the wood will probably decide to move more than a few thousandths of an inch a few days after you plane it anyway.

I spent 5-6 hours lapping the sole on a 5 once so it can take a bit of time.

Don't bother with the sides unless they are pretty much dead on from the start. If you want a plane for shooting its easier just to pick up a new one designed for it from LV or LN such as the low angle jack.