Smoothing African Mahogany: Smoother, Cabinet Scraper, or Scraper Plane?

[Danny Thompson]

Need some advice about a tool for a project in the works.

I've constructed a chunky, rustic dining table made from 12/4 mahogany. I am not obsessed with a perfectly flat surface, but I do want it relatively smooth to the touch (seams are okay, as are dips and gouges, splinters aren't).

So far I've been going at it with an LV Bevel Up Jack and an LN102 Low Angle Block plane. The Jack works great up to a point, but then I have to whip out the block plane to get into the lower parts. This seems to be working out okay, but the ribbon grain isn't as smooth as it could be.

I'm going to use this as an excuse to pick up a new tool. The question is which tool? Is it:

A) the LV Bevel Up Smoother (possibly with a secondary bevel set to York Pitch)
B) the LN Cabinet Scraper (or some other brand)
C) the LN Large Scraper Plane (how different is this from B?)
D) something else

Which would you use for ribbony African Mahogany (Sipo)?

Thanks.

[Robert Rozaieski]

In my experience with African mahogany, there is a lot of grain reversal, which makes planing difficult with any plane. If your BU jack is having problems, the BU smoother won't work any better. You need to change your angle and direction of attack to make sure you are working with the grain. You really need to be able to focus your efforts on a particular spot in a particular direction. I would scrape the entire surface, paying special attention to the grain direction as it reverses fast and often. Not the easiest stuff to smooth. A cabinet scraper or scraper plane probably won't help you as, similar to a plane, it will not allow you to focus in a single spot. So when you hit a seam of grain reversal under the plane or scraper body, you'll tear out half and smooth half. African mahogany can try your patience to say the least. A hand held card scraper will likely be your best friend here. If you have to, a light sanding wouldn't be frowned upon either ;).

[Greg Cole]

In my experience with African mahogany, there is a lot of grain reversal, which makes planing difficult with any plane. A hand held card scraper will likely be your best friend here. If you have to, a light sanding wouldn't be frowned upon either ;).

+1. I've had some recent experience with exactly the above. Regardless of angle of attack I had some issues with the rapid reversal, cruising along just great and :eek: instant not great.
The same project includes curly maple panels which needed to be sanded & I HATE SANDING. HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT. I'd rather paint the ceiling in my house again before I spend a few more hours with ROS in hand.:mad:
But, that said some sanding is required.. but still makes me frown.

[Doug Shepard]

...

I'm going to use this as an excuse to pick up a new tool. The question is which tool? Is it:

A) the LV Bevel Up Smoother (possibly with a secondary bevel set to York Pitch)
B) the LN Cabinet Scraper (or some other brand)
C) the LN Large Scraper Plane (how different is this from B?)
D) A Ron Brese Infill Smoother:D

Which would you use for ribbony African Mahogany (Sipo)?

Thanks.

Option D for sure. That plane scoffs at grain reversal.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/search.php?searchid=2463727

[Prashun Patel]

I am not obsessed with a perfectly flat surface, but I do want it relatively smooth to the touch (seams are okay, as are dips and gouges, splinters aren't). I'm going to use this as an excuse to pick up a new tool. The question is which tool?


I understand yr desire to pick up a new tool. However, I sanded my top up to 220 unfinished, and then through 320 with oil, and it was perfectly smooth.

[Ron Brese]

Danny,

Ribbon Striped mahogany can have a coarse texture and for that reason it is harder to plane, however this a situation where you need to make every effort to hold the fibers as tight as possible when shearing them with the plane iron. You will need to adjust the mouth of the planes you are using to be reasonably tight, say .004 to .006, and keep the iron regularly touched up due to the fact that mahogany usually contains a lot of silica which tends to degrade the edge on the iron faster than most woods.

In lieu of trying to clean up the low areas with a block plane you may want to concentrate on working down the adjacent high areas that are creating the slight depression. You noted that you did not require a perfectly flat surface, however if you resolve the issue of the low areas by working the surface to near flat then everything afterwards becomes easier.

Ron Brese

[Brent Smith]

Hi Danny,

Ron has the right idea. Working low areas with a block plane is just going to end up causing you more grief. The last table top I did in AM I flattened it with a #8, followed that with an S&S panel plane and finished with a scraper plane and a card for a few areas. A lite sanding with 220 and it was ready for finishing. So in answer to your question...if it were me I'd pick up a scraper plane and a card scraper to go with your Jack (and a #8 would be nice too).

[Danny Thompson]

In case it makes a difference . . .

There isn't a lot of switching back and forth as I plane along the length of these boards (although there is some) . It is more that the dark stripes plane smoothly but the lighter colored stripes are coarse.

. . .
Interesting you mention a card scraper. I tried this with a freshly burnished card scraper, but found I could only make dust. Is that typical on African Mahogany, or do I need to revisit my burnishing technique?

I'll try to post a pic this evening.

[Brent Smith]

Hi DAnny,

If you're only making dust, yes you have to bone up on your card scraper skills ;).

[Michael Faurot]

Something you may want to try is to go at the difficult grain with the Veritas Low Angle Jack coupled with the 50° blade (62° combined angle). I use this combination when working with difficult grained woods and 90% of the time this works. For that other 10% of the time, I'll hit the really difficult grained woods with the Veritas Scraper plane.

[Greg Cole]

[quote=Michael Faurot;954458]Something you may want to try is to go at the difficult grain with the Veritas Low Angle Jack coupled with the 50° blade (62° combined angle)[quote]
I'll be able to chime on on this by Wendesday. UPS has mine as I type...:rolleyes:
My issues with the mahogany tear out are smack in the middle of a rail on a headboard... dead center.

+1 for the scraper sharpening if you've only got dust to show for it.

[Charles Shenk]

In this situation I've used my LN bevel up jack with a toothed blade in it first and then cleaned up the little ridges (which give it up easier) with a #4 smoother. Works well. Or make a sanding plane as recently shown in Fine Woodworking and call it a day. Isn't sandpaper a legitimate hand tool for our era? ;)

[Johnny Kleso]

I would just plane it flat and then as others said sharpen my blade and close down mouth and use my jack for finishing...

If unhappy with what I have you can try the 102 in the bad spots

If that doesnt work a card scraper or cabinet scraper..

And if still not happy I would break out my sander :)

I love my planes but will not think twice about sanding when needed

[Greg Cole]

And if still not happy I would break out my sander :)
I love my planes but will not think twice about sanding when needed
Think twice and complain 3 times? Maybe it's just me and my disdain for sanding???:confused:

[Danny Thompson]

I have an extra blade for the LAJ, so I'll grind it for 50º and see what happens. As promised, here are a couple of pics (although I suppose they just look like you'd expect. One without flash:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99577&d=1225158128

One with:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99578&d=1225158138

[Greg Cole]

Danny,
Seriously, looks 100% indentical to the stock I referred to above for the bed project...... seems like ya can make one pass one way and another pass the other and neither one did the stock any favors. I'm about 36 hours from getting my hands on my LA jack... and hoping for it so do as promised.
Cheers.
Greg

[Robert Rozaieski]

Ahh, typical African mahogany. Let me guess, you are trying to plane "up" in that picture with the flash. What it looks like to me, and maybe I'm wrong as it is difficult to tell from a picture, is that this piece has the typical reversing grain of African mahogany. Looking at the picture, what it looks like to me is that you should be planing the stripes in opposing directions like this.

99605

Hence my recommendation to scrape. With this type of lumber, it's real hard to plane in the proper direction and since it's so soft and stringy (for a hardwood) it tears out easily. The lighter stripe at about the middle of the picture (the down arrow in my picture) looks like micro tearout, which is what is making that stripe rough or fuzzy. Try a well sharpened scraper in the direction of the arrow. You could also try your block plane only on the lighter stripe, but again, it may be tough to plane in exactly the spot you want to. Another thing you could try is wetting the wood before you plane it. Just wipe it with a damp cloth to soften the fibers some and go at it with a very finely set smoother with a tight mouth and a freshly honed hair splitting sharp iron. It may help.

[Greg Cole]

Roberts picture shows exactly what I was trying to say about passes on direction and then the next....
Thanks Robert.

[John Downey]

I use a plain old #4 for final smoothing on African mahogany. The interlocking grain is always a pain, but a sharp blade makes a world of difference. I'll hollow grind the bevel, sharpen it on a soft arkansas stone, then polish the edge with a handcrank buffer (running backwards) and a hard felt wheel. The purists will cringe at that, but it takes me only a minute or so to touch up the blade that way, so I can keep it sharp all day with little bother.

[Mark Singer]

The reality is that some woods are not well suited to planning . If a better finish can be achieved by sanding that should be used. The best plane would be a bevel up smoother set fine with the mouth fairly small. Often when boards are laid up as in a table top, the grain from board to board reverses and the same issue occurs. A hand scraper can be very effective .

[Danny Thompson]

Success!!

Michael Farout's advice worked!

At first I tried a 52º effective angle (Rob Lee suggested starting there and working up) still using the Low Angle Jack. It was better. Once I found the right planing direction, the dark grain went well, but notice the light grain on the left of this sample piece--Tearout!

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99968&d=1225575398

Now, if I switched direction and planed the other way on the light grain, it came out smooth. So I could plane the whole table going back and forth.

Being a lazy man, however, I thought I'd try again. I rehoned the microbevel to 50º (62º effective angle) and tried again--Voila:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99969&d=1225575409

Returning to the scene of the crime--check out that spot where the tearout had been:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99970&d=1225575428

Smooth.

Here are the shavings:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99975&d=1225577519


Thanks all for your advice.

And Mark Singer . . . thanks for the inspiration. Your Wenge table convinced me I could shift my table legs inward without incorporating a foot. Thanks.

Greg Cole, How's your project coming?

[Michael Faurot]

Success!!

Michael Farout's advice worked!


Sweet! Glad I could help.



Being a lazy man, however, I thought I'd try again. I rehoned the microbevel to 50º (62º effective angle) and tried again--Voila:


That Veritas bevel-up jack with a high angle blade in it really does work great. I'm looking forward to when I have a bit of extra cash and I can get the bevel-up smoother in that series of planes.