My new toy

[Frank Corker]

I know from experience that most people like to view what others are doing with their time, so I thought I'd just show you what I'm up to and also show off my new toy.

It's a Micro Flame Generator or Flame Polisher. It uses electrolyte flake mixed with distilled water in the main filler at the top. Isopropanol/alcohol in the shiny silver reservoir at the front. You then power it up and it creates hydrogen which pressurises the silver reservoir goes through the flame arrestor to the hand piece. It has five different nozzles, the smallest of which is .006 and it comes out so tiny that I can flame polish 2mm acrylic! Believe me when I say it's tiny in comparison to what I used to use which now seems to be the size of a flame thrower. The heat it generates has to be experienced to be believed.

The result of the work just beggars belief, it's amazing. I am now going to post some of the things that I have been doing here for the Welsh Guards Association.

[Frank Corker]

Here are more

[Frank Corker]

Just a few more

[Frank Corker]

Okay that's the last of them

[Joe Pelonio]

I've never tried cutting acrylic that thick, but always thought that 3/8" was the maximum for one pass on my 45 watt. You are doing some beautiful work with that little torch. It sure seems to be better than using my shop propane
unit. I seem to have problems with getting the edge nice without messing up the face. Why not tell the story of how you found that device?

[Steve Clarkson]

Those are awesome! I especially like the sandwiched 5mm/5mm/5mm one.

OK.....for a newbie.....do I need an acrylic polisher? If so, can I get that one that you have here in the States? Can you share the brand name and or cost of it?

[Doug Griffith]

Now that is a cool piece of gear! I'm jealous.

Cheers,
Doug

[Robert Ray]

That is one really nice tool. I have been looking for one on and off ever since I seen Kim Vellore's (another SMC member here) unit demonstrated.

Flame polished acrylic just glistens so crystal clear it's unbelievable!

Congrats on the new toy! :D


-Robert

[Frank Corker]

Thanks guys. A while back I posted about flame polishing. I actually happened across that method by experimenting with a plumbers torch on a scratched piece of acrylic. When I went online I found a piece by someone saying that the best finishes on acrylic were by diamond polisher if the piece were absolutely flat or by using a flame polisher.

Looked and cried at the price of diamond polishers. Then I searched for the other and kept searching until I could find one that I could afford. It wasn't cheap at £440 ($742) but after I discussed it with my wife, she shrugged her shoulders and said, "Tools of the trade, get it". You've got to love a woman like that, so I bought it.

The unit itself is quite heavy, but it's very frugal with the use of distilled water and alcohol, it seems to go on for a VERY long time (still haven't needed to refill yet and I've flamed just about everything I can!!).

It's quick, to flame polish that piece above (20mm with the badge) took under a minute. The flame is extremely localised and almost the second it is switched off, you can touch the tip of the torch, but not the piece you have been working on.

The thing that has got me thinking and quite excited about it is that due to the heat being localised, if you heat a section of 6mm acrylic in a straight line backwards and forwards for 20 seconds on both sides along the same path, the acrylic bends with very little distortion!!

I was concerned about one comment that was made by someone who was using flame polishing on another site using a bunsen/plumbers torch that when completed, if the piece came into contact with alcohol it will crack. Well I flame polished several pieces using this little baby and I went as far as soaking my polished piece in alcohol. Nothing other than giving it a good clean happened.

Joe, did you notice the speed, power and frequency cutting the 20mm? It had been some time since I last did a piece that thick and being a moron I forgot to write it down. I tried lasering through at 2sp 100pwr and 5000frq - it was like the cut from hell. It took three runs and there were dreadful wave lines right the way through with rough edges on the final piece. So I reduced the speed by 1, power down to 70 and frequency to 2500 and a single beautiful smooth cut, wave lines of course but only to be expected after all it is only 45w.

Overall I'm tickled pink! The finish on the pieces are trully amazing and it's true, the sparkle the acrylic leaves is beautiful.

[Frank Corker]

Those are awesome! I especially like the sandwiched 5mm/5mm/5mm one.

OK.....for a newbie.....do I need an acrylic polisher? If so, can I get that one that you have here in the States? Can you share the brand name and or cost of it?

Learn to run first Steve, you have a lot of learning to do. It's nice but it only does one main job and you won't have time for that with all your studying.

[Skip Weiser]

Beautiful work Frank! That flame polisher is a nice addition to your shop too.

Skip

[Steve Clarkson]

Baby steps.....Baby steps........

Actually, I'm just working on preparing my 2009 budget and didn't know if I needed to include an acrylic polisher/flame thrower......

[Jack Harper]

Very nice Frank. What model of unit did you buy?

[Doug Griffith]

Here's a fairy poor Youtube video of the polisher in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG0N_Fweg4o


Looked and cried at the price of diamond polishers.

I've looked at diamond edge polishers as well. This is the most affordable (and smallest) I could find. The cost is app. $9500 US.
http://edgefinisher.com/EF200.html

Also, if someone is looking to get a flame polishing system, remember to look into a hydrogen/oxygen system. It gives the best results.

Cheers,
Doug

[Frank Corker]

The Radecal group is the one I bought mine from it is the hydrogen/oxygen version. I did it via Ebay, but they were asking £799 for the same one. So I guess I got a good deal.


This demo is a bit better - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oDNkMMaDnM&feature=related

This one shows a similar machine but gives you a better look at the size of the flame - mine is ready much faster than this one though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NaqbsC6A3A&feature=related

[Chris Hanson]

Frank,

Impressive results!

I'm curious what makes this work so much better than a plain torch. Is it the size of the flame? (allowing more focused heat on the edge instead of the larger flame produced by "plumber's torch"....but not Joe the Plumber..ha ha) Temperature produced? Whether it is an oxidizing,neutral or reducing flame?

You have me curious. I have a propane/oxy "Little Torch" that is capable of a very small hot flame that I use for jewelry work that I'll have to give a try.

You thoughts?

Thanks for sharing.

Chris

[Jack Harper]

Frank - Do you have a website for them? Thanks.

[Eric Allen]

Ah, Frank, you went out and rustled up one of my heart's desires before I could finish building mine:) I got deeply, darkly involved in understanding the technology when what I'd really like to do is be playing with it. As always, cranking out beautiful work too:)

[Scott Challoner]

Acrylic is already a great material to work with but that brings it to a new level.
Nice work Frank.

[Tim Bateson]

Very impressive. That is the polisher and your wife's approval to invest.

[Dave Johnson29]

I am now going to post some of the things that I have been doing here for the Welsh Guards Association.


WOW Frank, WOW! That is some pretty nice stuff you are making there.

Many years back I had a friend who owned a point of sale display company and they made a lot of stuff out of plexiglas. He had a hydrogen tank and a small silversmith's torch. When things got busy he would ask me to come in and do some of the easy stuff. That torch setup had a burst panel and if you touched the tip to the plexiglas the flame should shoot back up the hose and that panel would explode like you had been shot at. Damn I hated that thing. :D

[Frank Corker]

Dave that's why it has the flame arrestor on it! Stops that flame going back to base, because the flame is so tiny at times it is difficult to see where it is. So when it touches the acrylic you hear a little noise, but it's more like a sizzling than a pop.

Jack I can give you the Ebay website for this company but it is in the UK remember, there has to be quite a few suppliers in the States, but come back to me if you can't find one.

Chris the hydrogen/oxygen mix seems to be extremely clean, absolutely no smell whatsoever from the flame, it is intense heat just past the nozzle but the flame thickness is less than an eigth of an inch. Obviously the more you open the valve the longer the flame gets..... I think by that time you are close to being on fire. These machines are also used by jewellers because of the ability to put the heat exactly where you want it and the flame can be reduced to a couple of millimeters in length.

I have been doing loads of runs on stuff and bending acrylic which is very difficult without a strip bender, with this it is relatively easy, certainly supplying the heat along a line is no hardship, but it is quick when it reaches that melting point. Because the acrylic has a tendency to want to return to the original shape it needs to be held in a set position as it cools. After that it doesn't appear to weaken the acrylic which is a good thing.

[David Darnell]

Frank-
One thing I noticed with Radecal was a Twin Head 80 watt engraver- have you heard anything about it- looked rather impressive for the price

[Frank Corker]

Have to be honest David, I didn't even consider looking at anything else. I've got a laser and the chances of me getting another is miniscule so I wear blinkers.

[Bruce Larson]

We went to our Acetylene gas supplier and bought a tank of Hydrogen and a different set of gauges. Now we just switch from the acetylene setup to the Hydrogen setup, and use the smaller flame nozzles as the job requires. One tip: always turn off the Hydrogen bottle very firmly as you can leak out a full botle in just a few days.

[Bill Cunningham]

Still have a old Oxy/Hyd/Air cutting torch around someplace.. It was replaced years ago by the Electric Arc underwater cutting torch.. When the oxy/hyd torch snapped out under water, it was like a gunshot beside your head.. LOUD ..

[Jack Harper]

OK, does anyone know where to find this new toy here in the US?

[Scott Shepherd]

OK, does anyone know where to find this new toy here in the US?


C R CLARKE & CO (US) INC (C) http://www.crclarke.co.uk/Sales/img/us.gif
Tel1:+1 800 676 7133
Tel2:+1 407 566 0755
Fax: +1 407 566 0756
Eail: martin.roberts@celebration.fl.us

[Dan Hintz]

Very neat little toy, I don't know how I missed this thread...

Here's a smaller one I just ran across (£560.00 ex VAT), but it's also in the UK... finding one in the US is surprisingly difficult, but I'll keep looking.
http://www.hswalsh.com/Micro_Flame_Pioneer_Hobby_.aspx?i=TS7010&c=374

EDIT: I just found a couple of less expensive ones on eBay (still in the UK, but obviously willing to ship to the US) by Radecal.
Item# 370101531512 is an example for £400 starting bid (though their Buy-It-Now price of £799 puts it a bit over the top for me). £80 shipped to the US...

[Rudy Ress]

For those that are interested I found a US company that sells the product:
http://www.sra-solder.com/ww.htm

Kind of pricey at ~$1500 US. Not in this budget year:(

Can also search using "Brown's gas welder"

[Scott Challoner]

They seem to be called all kinds of things. Water torch, HHO torch oxy/Hydrogen... Jewelry supply stores seem to carry them. SRA also carries a Microflame torch that I think is Oxygen/Butane and it claims it will hit 5000F. Same as the water torches and it's only $85. Might be worth a try.
http://www.sra-solder.com/microfl.htm

[Frank Corker]

Here is something else that you can do with it. This is 9mm thick acrylic, it took less than two minutes to bend this into a 90 degree angle. Yes it did fold right at the bend mark, but I wasn't trying to be super neat, I just wanted to see if it would bend it.

As you can see from the pictures and probably know from experience, cast acrylic when it is bent snaps and shatters, it is also extremely difficult to do that! This bend is just over 2" from the end, I didn't even use pliers or a vice, I just heated it along an imaginary line, both sides for about 7 or 8 goes and bent it. Held it in place using bare hands, heat was not an issue where I was holding it.

My mind is boggling as to it's capabilities. I also poured alcohol on it and no cracking!

[Frank Corker]

SRA also carries a Microflame torch that I think is Oxygen/Butane and it claims it will hit 5000F. Same as the water torches and it's only $85. Might be worth a try.



Scott, you might want to have a look here at that one, personally I found it kind of scary!:eek:
http://www.thebestcasescenario.com/modwiki/index.php/Flame-polishing_acrylic

[Bob Cole]

Frank,

I am glad you have found that device. You have always done amazing things with acrylic. I am looking forward to more of your posts with the stuff you come up with.

[Scott Challoner]

Scott, you might want to have a look here at that one, personally I found it kind of scary!:eek:
http://www.thebestcasescenario.com/modwiki/index.php/Flame-polishing_acrylic

Frank

For some reason, I still can't access that site. If you mean scary because it's a self contained unit with both bottles nestled in the palm of your hand... I agree. That looks a little scary.
On one hand, you saved $1,000. On the other hand. Wait. What other hand!:eek:

[Frank Corker]

He was just showing what can be done. See below.

[Mark Winlund]

In a former life, I used to own a welding and fab shop. Micro torches were available from any welding supplier for about$100, and came with 3 or 4 torch tips. We bought a cylinder of compressed hydrogen and used it with our standard oxygen tanks. I still have the hydrogen tank with it's initial fill! (It lasts a long time.) The cost of the whole setup even if purchased new, including tanks, is still very much less than some of the numbers I am hearing here. I think that any product that has the word "jewelry" in front of it gets an automatic price increase of 1000%.

Mark

[Dan Hintz]

In a former life, I used to own a welding and fab shop. Micro torches were available from any welding supplier for about$100, and came with 3 or 4 torch tips. We bought a cylinder of compressed hydrogen and used it with our standard oxygen tanks. I still have the hydrogen tank with it's initial fill! (It lasts a long time.) The cost of the whole setup even if purchased new, including tanks, is still very much less than some of the numbers I am hearing here. I think that any product that has the word "jewelry" in front of it gets an automatic price increase of 1000%.
Mark,

While your last statement is most likely quite true, I think your comparison is apples to oranges. In your case, you were combining gas from tanks... this required ordering, storage, rental fees, refills, etc. The units mentioned here, while having a higher initial price, are all-inclusive and self-contained. They can sit on your desktop or under the desk, no refill is necessary other than water, etc. just plug in and go. I can't speak for others, but I would certainly rather have a small self-contained unit that plugs in than have to deal with large tanks... of course, if your shop was already set up to deal with tanks on a daily basis (welding shop), this argument probably doesn't hold much HHO.

[Tom Cole]

Frank, I got a unit from SRA. Do you use boric acid powder in the methyl alcohol? I haven't done any polishing yet, have to wait for the weekend, but managed to melt a penny into a lump of copper in about 15 seconds for a test. the penny lump lost it's copper color and turned almost the same color as nickel. May be the boric acid reduction flame?

[Frank Corker]

Tom, not sure about the stuff that I put in, it's only described as being eltrolyte flake. It really does get very hot though.

[Dan Hintz]

...but managed to melt a penny into a lump of copper in about 15 seconds for a test. the penny lump lost it's copper color and turned almost the same color as nickel. May be the boric acid reduction flame?
These days, pennies are zinc that has been copper plated... <1% copper means a molten mass is going to look like the underlying zinc.

[Tom Cole]

Thanks Dan, that explains that. by the way, I "welded" some screws together using stainless steel safety wire as a welding rod. worked pretty good.

[Tom Cole]

Frank, the SRA brand welder uses liquid caustic potash (Potassium Hydroxide) as an electrolyte in the water tank, and methanol (methyl alcohol) with boric acid desolved in it to change the characteristics of the flame. It appears to me that the generated gas bubbles through the alcohol tank. I suspect the unit was made outside the english speaking world because there were no operating instructions other than how to load the solutions into the tanks and what flow setting to use with the different size tips. The tips for this unit are standard hypodemic syringe needles with the tips ground flat.

[Frank Corker]

This is from the instructions on my machine. The mixed crystals are mixed 150g with 500ml of distilled water. They recommend that it be mixed in a pyrex jug as it can be corrosive at this point. No given time as to how long this will last but by all accounts it's 'ages'

The alcohol that goes into the tube at the side needs to be cleaned every 15 days with warm water and the gaskets should be cleaned with a damp cloth to remove residue. The pressure is 0.15mpa before ready to activate.

It uses pure Methyl-Alcohol in the chamber which should be marked on the outside with a red line or mark.

One solid brass tip which is the largest and then 4 other hypodermic type syringe with the ends ground off.

Hope this will help you.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Wondering Frank, have you tried polishing in the areas that were rastered?

[Lonny Meeks]

Frank,

What are the dimensions of your desk nameplates? Particular the triangles for the "legs"?

[Frank Corker]

Frank,

What are the dimensions of your desk nameplates? Particular the triangles for the "legs"?

Lonny, 1.69 wide x 1.09 tall and longest part, the height of the piece ws 2.59. why? because they looked right to me!





Wondering Frank, have you tried polishing in the areas that were rastered?

Thank goodness someone asked! I was hoping that you would do that. I have polished the edges where there have been cuts, those that I have shown you, I have also carried out a few tests on edges cut with a saw. The greatest polished edge is still with the smoothing using wet and dry. On a rough edge created with a saw a very favourable result with the polish but bumpy smooth and shiny.

I decided to test a piece to see just how far I could go without using anything other than a raster on acrylic at 600dpi. As you know this leaves quite a rough edge when the power is increased and speed reduced, that was the finish I wanted to work on.

A good friend of mine, someone who is on the SMC, gave me a 3D image of a flower. I engraved 6 times at high power low speed and got a very nice 3D shape. I then flame polished it all (lightning and banging drum with an horrific laugh from the belly as I raised my eyes and hands to the sky) and actually got a suprising result. As can be seen from the photographs attached, the raised edges of the flower were softened and the flat areas (not rubbed with any abrasive) developed a wavy lapping edge as the acrylic flowed with the heat. The result is that it looks like 17th century glass. How weird?

The hardest job was due to the heat, I had to only do quick runs over the whole piece or there was a tendency for the acrylic piece to start to sag in my hand. That said it was all done whilst I was holding it and turning in my bare hand, the heat was not uncomfortable either. I did stop every now and then to lay the piece on a flat surface to stop any curling, but I think that the result was very aesthetically pleasing to the eye and touch.

The pictures show the result. They will enlarge if you click on them.
If you look closely at the first picture you will see alongside the petals the wavy 17th century glass effect. Picture 2 is just tilted up so you can see how deep the engraving went, this is 9mm thick acrylic. Picture 3 unfortunately being hard to photograph does show the shine. Picture 4 is a photograph through the part mentioned above.

[Lonny Meeks]

Unfortunately, I am not at the point that Frank is in the laser business yet. I was watching a You Tube video and saw a portable alternative to polishing acrylic. It is called Mapp Gas, similar to a propane torch. For those who have a Lowes close by here is a link.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=98400-717-MG9&detail=&lpage=none

Also you might try a Google search on Mapp Gas - available at most hardware stores?

[Frank Corker]

Lonny that is what I used to use before. The hydrogen one that I have now is as far from that as a motel is to a 7 star hotel. It will do the job and I would recommend that you do try it before investing in one like mine. It will give you a good result, but be under no illusion, it is the alternative. I do most of my work with acrylic so for me it really is just tools of the trade.

[Lonny Meeks]

Thanks Frank. I like acrylic but as of yet, haven't done much with it. I would love to find a niche in the market here for acrylic if you happen to have any ideas. I visited a trophy place and the owner does not like working with acrylic so hopefully I will get some business from her.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Next Frank....

How about rastering away what ISN'T flower, then flaming that??? The flower in proud relief than polished will have to look as though it was cast rather than lasered.

GO!
.

[Frank Corker]

Next Frank....

How about rastering away what ISN'T flower, then flaming that??? The flower in proud relief than polished will have to look as though it was cast rather than lasered.

GO!
.


Helloooo it is! That flower is nearly 4mm high as is the lip around the circle. Sometimes Mitchell you can be so two dimensional.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Helloooo it is! That flower is nearly 4mm high as is the lip around the circle. Sometimes Mitchell you can be so two dimensional.

Tough to see in clear acrylic.

Just wondering if the end laser/flame product could then be used to produce rubber molds for casting....

Hmmmm...... Rapid prototyping.