Kitchen renovation questions

[Frank Martin]

We are buying a new house which needs a new kitchen. I spoke with couple contractors and don't like what I hear so far. To minimize the pain, I was hoping they could plan everything and even order cabinets in advance before removing the old stuff and then quickly install the new kitchen in a few weeks. This renovation does not involve demolishing any walls, etc. Both contractors said that they would need to demolish the existing kitchen then take measurements for the cabinets and everyhing else, then install the new cabinets and appliances. This whole thing would require about four months. I don't know why they cannot take measurements for the new cabinets while the existing kitchen is still in place. But they insist that need to demo first.

Is this pretty typical or are they trying to do it this way to avoid the risk of a customer changing their minds?

I know at least several people renovated their own kitchens. Did you demo first then start building the cabinets (when all the walls etc, remain as they are) or did you build at least most of the cabinets and then start demolition?

Thanks!!

[Paul Greathouse]

Frank

I'm not sure what their reasoning for demo'ing first would be, but proper measurements can be taken before anything is removed. Then the whole kitchen can be built in their shop and transported to your house after demo has taken place.

Several years back when things were tight for us financially, I did cabinet work part-time. I wasn't a pro but I did quality work and had all the work I wanted and more. The big shops and the full-timers were doing all the new home construction and didn't want to mess with remodels. I can understand that, remodels can be a pain, working in someones home while they are living there isn't always easy.

How is the housing industry in your area? If it is strong then maybe these guys don't want to be bothered with a remodel and are giving you the 4 month horror story because they are not interested in the job.

To give you an idea of how much time it should take:
I used to be able to demo a complete kitchen in a day or less by myself. A few months ago my son and I installed a complete kitchen in his new home and the install only took about four days. The cabinets that we installed were built by us in my shop before-hand. The first two days included hanging and attaching the cabinets and wiring appliances. I spent another day installing the countertop and then probably a little less than a day installing the crown molding around the top of the cabinets. Somewhere in there I installed the sink and my son plumbed it.

Get some more bids and let them know up front that you want the new cabinets ready to install before the demo takes place.

[Lucas Bittick]

You didn't mention the age of your new house. Out of curiosity-- what kind of cabinets do you have right now? And, how much do you plan to change the layout of the kitchen? Will you move plumbing, etc.?

If your cabinets were built for the house, then you probably have more options than if the cabinets are modular pre-fabs. Depending on what you change, you may not have to demolish all the cabinetry. It sounds odd to me also that your contractors want to demolish the kitchen before measuring. :confused:

I have had some enlightening moments remodeling our new house. Based on what you have written already, there are some things to be cautious about. First, keep in mind that any construction project will cost more and take longer than you initially think. Second, as much as you can envision the changes you want, I can make a good case for living in the house a bit before committing to radical changes. You can then design your remodel around how you actually live in the space. Third, there are a lot of things to manage when buying a house and moving in. Managing a construction project around the same time as that event is very stressful and frustrating. Additionally, by adding a sense of urgency to the kitchen project, you might overlook other essential elements involved in assuming ownership of the property, as well as losing leverage with contractors. (If I walk into a car dealership and signal that I need a car right now, I surely will not get a good deal. Same goes for contractors).

Not knowing your exact situation, I can make a good case for being willing to wait. You won't feel under the gun, and can take some time to scout out reputable contractors, plan your design, and price the project, without dealing with moving, etc. A few years from now, you won't care if the project took a while, but you will care if you overpaid for a design that doesn't suit your life.

Sorry for being long-winded!

[Roger Ronas]

I agree that unless your changing the layout or having to move electrical or plumbing, they are pulling your chain. Also possible that they are under the opinion that if you are demoed, then your stuck with them and any news they have for you later on. ie: more costs then you agreed to or settling for something less then originaly quoted.

HTH
Roger

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I renovated kitchens in a former life. I would always design and order cabinets well in advance prior to starting work. Depending on where the cabinets are ordered, they may take anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks.

As Paul stated, the contractor or cabinet designer should take dimensions. Since you are not moving walls, this is a no brainer. If electrical or plumbing mods are required, this is irrelevant as far as upfront ordering of the cabinets.

When I did this work, I would also like to see the new appliances and the sink on-site prior to beginning demo to ensure everything fits the plan. It reduces schedule risk for the installer, and less down time on the kitchen for the homeowner.

A typical kitchen without major wall modifications should take about 3 to 4 weeks including countertop and flooring.

Good luck.

-Jeff :)

[Frank Martin]

Thanks for all the responses. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear.

I like the suggestion of living in the place for a while before committing to this.

The closing is at the end of this month. Looks like the better option is to just worry about the move for now then continue looking for a contractor who is willing to work with us to finish it up in several weeks as opposed to four months.

The house is in Southern California. I was built in 1990, actually the existing oak cabinets are in good condition. But there are several things that we don't like about it. We don't like oak, prefer cherry or maple. More importantly the countertops are tile, not granite...

Thanks again!!!

[fRED mCnEILL]

I Agree with Lucas in that, if you can, live in it for a while before you renovate.

I renovated our kitchen about 5 years ago and to this day my wife says there is absolutely nothing she would change. And the reason for this is that when planning the reno we looked at how we lived in our house i.e. kitchen, and made changes that enhanced how we lived rather than changing it. And you won't know this until you have lived in it for a while.

To illustrate this I read a story by a reno contractor who did a reno for a couple, both of whom were doctors. In their old kitchen they were in the habit of keeping a garbage bag on the floor next to the sink. They did an expensive reno which involved putting in a fancy garbage solution. A year later the contractor went back to the home and found-you guessed it-a garbage bag on the floor next to the sink. The moral here, of course, is that you should renovate to improve on the design you have rather than make a big change that may not fit how you live.

And to answer your question on time frame I pre-built my cabinets. The time from demo to completion of the reno, including a new hardwood floor was approx 30 days. This was doing most of the work myself(except the floor)4 months is rediculous.

A friend did a ren odue to water pipes freezing. So the kitchen was already demoed. She ordered Ikea cabinets and the cabinets were installed in a day or two. With Ikea you can order what you want and take it home with you the saem day.

Good luck

Fred

[Chris Weishaar]

Frank,

As others have pointed out, there is no need to take as-builts for the cabinets. If there is an area where the cabinets will be tight and the walls may change the contractor can use a field cut filler piece in that area.

The counter top however is usually templated after the cabinets are installed. It will prbably take a week or two from finished cabinet install for the counters to be templated, cut and installed.

We did our kitchen last year and it was about 6 weeks to demo, re-frame, re plumb, electrical, sheetrock, tile, cabinets and countertop. I only hired out the cabinets, electrical and sheetrocking. Lots of long hours but doable.

The way things are slowing down, move into the house and wait a couple of months. Take your time and find a good contractor who can meet your timeframe and budget.

Chris

[Steve Clardy]

I don't understand the 4 months :confused:

Many times I have measured up a new set of cabinets for replacing existing cabinets that are in place.
Built cabs in shop and ready to install.
Either I or the homeowner demo'ed the old cabs in 1 day, and I was there the next day installing cabinets. I usually had them ready to cook in 2 days or less.

[Eric Larsen]

I second the notion of doing nothing for awhile.

Live in the house awhile. If you're anything like me, the kitchen will be the second most used room in the house.

First, I'd go to www.hardwarehut.com and check out all the ways to trick out your kitchen. See which ones you like, and which ones don't make sense for your lifestyle.

Figure out where you want things to go -- spices, cans, dinnerware, cooking equipment, etc.

I'd also use and abuse that tile counter for awhile before laying down the pricey granite.




Thanks for all the responses. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear.

I like the suggestion of living in the place for a while before committing to this.

The closing is at the end of this month. Looks like the better option is to just worry about the move for now then continue looking for a contractor who is willing to work with us to finish it up in several weeks as opposed to four months.

The house is in Southern California. I was built in 1990, actually the existing oak cabinets are in good condition. But there are several things that we don't like about it. We don't like oak, prefer cherry or maple. More importantly the countertops are tile, not granite...

Thanks again!!!

[Joe Fusco]

Find new contractors. . .:D

[Gene Michael]

After you get used to the house for a while, consider talking with custom cabinet makers yourself. Same if there will be electrical work - talk directly with an electrician or two. Then, check with the local Building Dept regarding permits. Armed with this information, you may want to list yourself as the contractor and sub out the work.

I've done this on three houses and saved tons of $$$, not to mention learning a lot. In our current house, we got quotes from the borgs (high$ and low quality - veneer over particle board), then to a few large custom shops. Finally ended up with an excellent cabinet maker in a rural area. He did everything - measurements, estimates and installation. Because we've had poor experience with laquer finishes in a kitchen environment before, I did the staining and finishing using poly and he reduced his prices accordingly. This is far more flexibility than you'll get with a contractor.

Whatever you decide, best wishes to you and your wife in your new home.

[Joe Vincent]

As others have recommended, wait until you've lived in the house for a bit before deciding exactly what you want to do with your cabinets. Besides, there may be some other stuff that comes to light once you're in the house that you decide are higher priorities.

[Daniel Hillmer]

We are buying a new house which needs a new kitchen. I spoke with couple contractors and don't like what I hear so far. To minimize the pain, I was hoping they could plan everything and even order cabinets in advance before removing the old stuff and then quickly install the new kitchen in a few weeks. This renovation does not involve demolishing any walls, etc. Both contractors said that they would need to demolish the existing kitchen then take measurements for the cabinets and everyhing else, then install the new cabinets and appliances. This whole thing would require about four months. I don't know why they cannot take measurements for the new cabinets while the existing kitchen is still in place. But they insist that need to demo first.

Is this pretty typical or are they trying to do it this way to avoid the risk of a customer changing their minds?

I know at least several people renovated their own kitchens. Did you demo first then start building the cabinets (when all the walls etc, remain as they are) or did you build at least most of the cabinets and then start demolition?

Thanks!!

Do you have a garage to work in?

This is exactly how I got into woodworking last year - we needed to remodel our disgusting kitchen, we got quotes and for the entire job it would have cost about ten grand just for cabinets and install, not including any demolition, electrical, plumbing, etc. I decided to do it myself, the materials including wood and hardware are costing about three grand, and the tools to do it, including a table saw, festool equipment, router and some other stuff cost all together about five grand (although I am now buying some more tools for the job that are not required, I just want them because they make the job easier – but you could get most everything you need for I think less than five grand tool wise). So doing it yourself is really about the same price as hiring it out if you get fancy with the tools - the big advantage, is that you get the exact kitchen you want, exact design you want with no wasted space, no fillers, and much better quality because I am using at least b grade cabinet grade plywood and top of the line hardware, select grade hardwood, unlike the cheap hardware and particle board that the vast majority of kitchen cabinet builders use.

And no, I have never done woodworking before building the kitchen, other than a couple of years in middle school and one year in high school wood shop.

And when you are done, you have all the tools you need for any project around the house, build that coffee table your wife always wanted, or if you need the money, sell all the tools on eBay and end up with a better kitchen, the exact kitchen you want, at less than half the price!

The best part about doing it yourself, is that as you build your cabinets, when you start building the next one, as you learn, you can constantly modify and update your design if the wife changes her mind and wants’ something different. You can keep changing your design right up until the time you start cutting wood! It’s great.

And I do agree, it’s better to live there for a while first, that way you really know what you want in your kitchen.

I just finished building eight base cabinets and five wall cabinets. I’m now starting on building the drawers and doors – prior to this I completely demolished the kitchen because we had to re route some plumbing and wiring, tore out three small walls built three new ones, I did that myself too and saved a bundle, added recessed lighting to the ceiling last year, a lot of work but great savings in the end. I had never done plumbing prior to this either, I just got all the education I needed from the master plumber gal at Lowes. Can now make great copper tubing weld joints. Just about everything you need to know you can learn from the folks at home depot or lowes and your local electrical supplier. For the cabinets you can get great info just by reading the threads here, you don't even have to post - just do searches for your topic of interest. Also wired up my garage for 240 volt service for my heavy tools, cost me about about 300 bucks for the service panel, wire, conduit and outlets from my local electric supplier - electrical contractor wanted 1,500 bucks to do this job.

[Matt Ocel]

Frank,

Nothing much can be added to these responses.

With proper scheduling and planning, and assuming new cabinets, couter tops and flooring, I'd say 7 to 10 working days.

[Don Bullock]

Frank,
Congratulations on your new home. As someone who just went through what you did in purchasing a new home here in Southern California, I can say that the advice you have to wait on the remodel is good advice. While kitchens seem to be the "rage" in home decorating, there are other things for your new home that must be taken care of first. It's amazing what kinds of things we find in our house that need to be changed before we tackle the kitchen. If your home is actually new construction, you'll even have more things to purchase.

When you do finally find the money for the kitchen renovation get as many contractors as you can to "bid" on the project. Check out their work and talk to homeowners where they have renovated a kitchen. Set a firm timeline with rewards for quality and timeliness and consequences for problems and delays caused by the contractor. Far too many contractors here in Southern California spread themselves over several jobs and tend to draw work out for much longer than necessary. That is something that must be taught in local contractor schools.:rolleyes: Find someone that you can work with and who will work with you. If you aren't comfortable with your choice of contractors, you won't be happy no matter what the results are. Right now, and perhaps for the next few years, even the good contractors in Southern California are hurting. They want the work, so your choice is bigger than ever for those who will do quality work at a reasonable price in a timely manner.:D Good luck.

[Marlin Williams]

Where have you been looking for people? Have you tried craigslist? That is where I have found the best people IMO. The phone book for me has been a crap shoot but most people from craigslist seem to be a little more blunt/honest. I had a couple duds but I always get 3 estimates. Example being I have had 3+ estimates for my glass shower. they came in at...

1. $3000
2. $2200
3. $2000

We talked with the $2000 guy and did a Uchannel instead of clamps, due to some level issues, and the price is now down to $1700.

Same type of story with the plumbing work we had done to our bath room.

Forst thing is to be honest and blunt yourself. Tell them what you want. Be ready to hear other options but if you don;t like it tell them you want it this way and can you do it?

[Frank Martin]

Thanks to everyone again for exellent suggestions...

I think I will just wait a little before we tackle this project. As usual a great kitchen was a top priority for my wife, but we are ok waiting too.

So far, the two contractors that we spoke with were referrals from our real estate agent. We will definitely need to look for more. I will check craigslist as well.

As for building it myself, I have all the tools necessary and a two car garage that will be a dedicated shop, but don't really have the time to build the cabinets. I know I will save a lot of money if I did all myself, but prefer to spend the time with my family instead.

[Rob Diz]

When we bought our house, ten years ago, we thought we would redo our kitchen quickly. Then we had two kids, my dad got sick, etc etc. I finally just did it. I made the boxes out of some nice quality ply, and ordered the doors and drawers from Walzcraft.

I fortunately had the boxes built before I pulled the cabinets out, mostly for timing. Turns out there wasn't any drywall underneath the random width pin on the walls. I hadn't figured on needing a drywaller, but I did. I ended up chaning the plan a bit, pulling down a soffit here, adding some to the soffit there, adding lights there, adding built in speakers. All done on the side with my "extra" time.

I waited until the boxes were hung to order the doors and drawers as I wanted a tight fit and Walzcraft will go down to the mm on measurments.

I sprayed on the paint, applied the glaze, and seal coated in a long weekend.

I was pretty well organized and took a total of about a week off of work to do the demo, oversee some of my subs, etc. I also had a few breaks in the timeline due to other obligations.

All told, once I started the demo until the point that the countertops were on the appliances were installed was a little under three months.

And yes, I have a full time job that periodically makes me travel.

I'm not done yet - the drawer handles have yet to arrive, so we are just using the boxes on the slides. i have yet to build the custom island. But all told, even with the granite and the fancy smansy faucet fixtures and pot fillers wife wanted, my total spend is still less than the cost of some decent custom made cabinets. Any my kitchen is pretty much average size.

The key to the project is staying organized IMHO. Get Lang's book and use his layout pages/cut pages in a three ring binder. He gives some great protocols for labeling your parts as well.

I wish I had not waited 10 years, but life got in the way of this project. Wife won't let me wait 10 more years before I make the island though.

[Peter Quinn]

Find new contractors. . .:D

Bingo and ditto. Four months? To rebuild a kitchen in the existing foot print? If you are not making any major plumbing changes or serious structural work, than that is crazy. Two months start to finish for a complicated project is not unreasonable, from start of demo to end of punch list. Demo then order the cabinets? More crazy talk. Sheet rock is 1/2" from the rough framing where i live. You leave a few scribes, you might need a filler strip for stock cabinets, but four months? I've seen entire homes built in not much more time.

[Dan Karachio]

I'm going to pitch in on the wait and live with it point of view. In our house we did some work right away and some a few years after living here. The latter is by far the most well thought out and best value every single time. Take a few months and figure out what you need in that kitchen. You can imagine different layouts as you discover what you like and do not like about the current layout. As long as your kitchen isn't rotting you can make it! Moving is stressful enough alone and a kitchen rehab is up there too. Why do both at the same time and add all that stress?

And the demo before measure thing is ridiculous. Find someone else to work with!

One more thought on planning. Though I am not saying to go with Ikea, they do have a kitchen planning program you can download. You can experiment with various layouts that way as well.

[Pat Fitzsimmons]

my vote for using semi custom which we did for our kitchen update. I could have built them (they're just boxes) but the time!! There must be dozens of good semi products. We used Wellborne cabinets and are happy with product. Other suggestion...for bottoms, select as many drawers instead of doors as possible.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I just did a kitchen with fancy schmancy new everything.
The cabs were "Wood Mode" and they were ordered well before the tear out.

There is no reason to do the tear out and re-cover the walls and THEN measure for the cabinets unless there is some really dramatic weirdness in the walls that the dimension may change by some ungodly amount.

Good Cabinets come with a little extra fascia on the side edges which you can saw off as needed to get 'em to fit "just-so." Others come with extra trim pieces which you can add on where you need to get 'em to fit.

Either way, any competent tradesman, cabinet shop rep, or designer can accurately measure your kitchen ahead of the tear out and order the cabinets.