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Mitchell Andrus
10-18-2008, 8:35 AM
Last night, I rode in the front seat of a Toyota hybrid crossover SUV for about an hour. I forget the model name. Some city, some highway, then back to city.

We got off of the highway and I noticed that the engine 'stalled' at a light. I didn't know it was running about half of the time on volts until we reached the destination.

The info panel was turned on for me on the way home so I could watch the power flow...

I am impressed.

Lance Norris
10-18-2008, 9:16 AM
My parents bought a Toyota Prius in 2004 when no one knew what they were. I was shocked when my father called and told me, because in my mind, he would have never bought a foreign car, being a loyal Chrysler owner for 50 years. When I went to look at the new car, I knew nothing about what makes a hybrid "special". The new Prius was sitting in his driveway and when he got into the car to move it into the garage, I was shocked because all of a sudden, it was moving and the only sound was from cruching gravel. My wife was startled and jumped back. I have since driven the car on several occasions and yes, the "stalling" of the engine at a stop is a little un-nerving at first. This is probably the only thing that takes a little getting used to, and other than that, if you didnt know what a hybrid was, you'd never know the difference. My parents love this car and tell everyone that fact whenever they get the chance. We now have 2 Priuses(Prei? :rolleyes:) in the family as my oldest brother now has one. My next new vehicle will be a hybrid of some sort, but right now, Im holding out for a conversion kit so I can run my 1987 Dodge Dakota on Ryobi 18 volt Lithium-ion batteries. ;)

Jim Becker
10-18-2008, 9:44 AM
Mitchell, I've been driving a Highlander Hybrid since late 2005. It does take a little bit to get used to that "stalling" feeling, but after awhile, you don't notice it. The electric motor(s) also have significant torque so you never notice any delay if for some reason you have to "stomp on it". I was used to this when I bought the vehicle as Professor Dr. SWMBO already was driving a 2002 Prius at that point. The 2002 was traded in this past March for a 2008 Prius which is even nicer. I get about 27 mpg highway in the highlander (a mile or two lower in cold weather) and I have managed 54 mpg in the Prius (with ME driving... ;) ) on a recent business trip to Springfield MA. Professor Dr. SWMBO doesn't get as good mileage as I do, but she tends to accelerate harder and also only drives very short distances.

Lance, as much as my dad has been a "Caddy guy" since he retired many years ago, he has been pretty impressed with our Prius including the amount of room inside. I think he's been tempted a few times, if you know what I mean...

Al Wasser
10-18-2008, 10:15 AM
OK, I am interested, but how do they do on snowy icy roads??? The lone report I have said they don't do well. Any better info?

Jim Becker
10-18-2008, 4:52 PM
Al, my 2006 Highlander Hybrid is wonderful in bad weather--the electric motor in the rear that only kicks in when needed supplies a lot of extra grip. Our 2002 Prius was not so hot...until we changed to different tires. The OEM tires were terrible in snow, but the replacements (a different tire) made a notifiable difference. I can't comment on the 2008 Prius as we haven't had any snow yet... )

Mike DeHart
10-18-2008, 7:18 PM
Just wondering, how fast do they start blowing hot air in the cold weather?

Jim Becker
10-18-2008, 8:19 PM
Just wondering, how fast do they start blowing hot air in the cold weather?

The same as any other vehicle. The gas engine runs initially, even in warm weather, to top off the batteries and get things going for heat when that is necessary. The current generation of Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive is little affected by running the A/C in summer, unlike the earliest generations. Running the defroster, for example, on the 2002 Prius really did hit the gas mileage and doesn't on the 2008 or my Highlander. I'm not sure about the hybrid systems in the Ford and Nissan in that respect as they are based on an earlier Toyota system, but I don't know what generation.

Karl Brogger
10-19-2008, 9:09 PM
My complaints about hybrid vehicles are as follows.

-Expensive initial cost.
-What is maintenance going to cost in 5 or 10 years?
-Mileage isn't really that great. 42 mpg for a hybrid Accord? Please, you can buy a diesel Jetta and get over 50mpg pretty easily.
-Batteries don't like cold weather. I'm talking COLD weather. Its not uncommon to see -30*F here in the winter. I've left my pickup running at jobs sites for the entire day because I was worried it wouldn't start again.
-Most of the cars that are dedicated hybrids, like the Prius, look like death traps to me. I'm used to driving a 7400# vehicle, so that may be just a issue of perspective.
-Disposal of the batteries will be an issue. Kinda negates the enviromental protecting thing gained from the mediocre fuel economy.
-Gutless. I like power, and I'm willing to pay for it. Give my a hybrid, 3/4 ton pickup that has as much or more power than I'm accustomed to, and I might be interested.

Jim Becker
10-19-2008, 10:19 PM
Karl, trust me, one word that does not apply to either Toyota hybrid we own is "gutless". My Highlander Hybrid has more HP than the regular version and will squeal all four tires if you floor it. Torque is incredible. The Prius is also a jack rabbit if you need it to be...like getting out of our driveway without getting run over by a stone truck doing sixty in a forty zone. Safty is also top shelf on both vehicles and, proven to me when we had a major accident on the interstate in the HH in May of '06. I posted pictures of that here. The HH was pricy, but the Prius is quite reasonable. I'm not worried about service issues...the systems are proven at this point, at least with Toyota.

You do make a good point about battery disposal, but that's an unknown at this point and likely to be handled by the strong upswing in recycling programs growing in our battery infused society.

I do hope that a "real" hybrid solution comes to trucks like you prefer to drive. So far, the offerings have been lame in my mind.

Mitchell Andrus
10-20-2008, 10:10 AM
All mostly valid, Karl. We've got a long way to go in technology - AND - a longer way to go in mind-set and expectations. The rest of the drivers on the planet doesn't get to 60 in 5 seconds in their little 1.8 liter sedans and seem to be doing just fine.

The REAL joke is the Smart Car. 2 passengers and only 45 mpg???? Holy cow, what a waste of space. A Civic hybrid hauls 4 plus luggage at about 50 mpg.

Frank Hagan
10-20-2008, 6:45 PM
The batteries are nickle-metal hydride, and are recyclable. Here in California, I have a 10 year warranty on them (other areas are 8 years).

I routinely get more than 50 mpg in real world driving here in California with my 2006 Prius. I have two co-workers with SmartForTwo cars and they are not getting 45 mpg ... more like 38. But they paid half what I did for the Prius, so they are happy.

I paid $24,400 for my Prius and received a $3,150 tax credit (the credit is now expired). I also got stickers to allow me to drive in the car pool lanes with a single driver. I quit driving my truck, which was getting 17 mpg, and switched to a vehicle getting over 50, which helps on my 90 mile daily commute. LOML is driving the truck now to her job, 8 miles away. So it works for us.

My BIL tried to tell me my Prius wasn't good because I could have gotten a Corrolla for less than any possible fuel savings. We were standing next to his Viper at the time. Its very rare that people choose a car based on return on investment, but I did actually do a spreadsheet, comparing the mileage, purchase price, resale value, etc. That narrowed the choice down to three vehicles, the Corolla Matrix, the Prius and the small engine Camry. The difference in ride comfort and amenities for the price made the Prius an easy choice.

We're keeping the truck, though! Hard to tow a boat with the Prius, or bring home sheets of MDF.

Karl Brogger
10-20-2008, 8:56 PM
I'm not talking power as in 0-60 times. I'm talking hooking up to a 20,000# trailer and not worrying. I've got a slightly hopped up 6spd diesel pickup, fast isn't a term I'm used to using with that, but I do have probably 300hp, and 700 ft/lbs torque at the ground, and I still get 20mpg!

Why don't they produce a diesel hybrids? Seems an obvious choice to me. Americans are retarded when it comes to diesel. Some sort of fear or stigma is attached to it. After owning a diesel pickup for the last few years I don't think I could go back to a gasser.

Karl Brogger
10-20-2008, 9:19 PM
The REAL joke is the Smart Car. 2 passengers and only 45 mpg???? Holy cow, what a waste of space. A Civic hybrid hauls 4 plus luggage at about 50 mpg.

And a regular civic routinely gets in the mid 40's, and it doesn't need a expensive hybrid option to pull it off.

If it does for you, who am I to argue?

But! (there's always a "but") I've gone off on this tangent before. Enviromentalists make my skin crawl. Granted we don't need to be dumping mercury, arsenic, (insert deadly chemical/compound here), into our rivers. But the folks who are the extremists, or even Al Gore's followers are deranged. Half actually believe the filth they are spewing, the other half are just in it to take advatage of the situation economically. Me?, everytime I hear them I want to start a tire fire. A big one.

Start hording your incandescent bulbs now. The environmentalists want you to buy communist China made compact fluorescent bulbs. China, where they're knocking together a coal fired power plant once a week. Good thinking folks.

Our real problem isn't what we use as individuals. The problem resides in how much we consume as a population. There are way more of us than there should be. Technology in agriculture is the only reason we are able to support the numbers the way we do. The only reason we live as long as we do is a combination of improved medical care, and more importantly proper sanitation. Over population is the biggest problem. In 1850 there was less than a dozen cities with a population over 1,000,000. How many are there now?

Jeff Monson
10-20-2008, 10:42 PM
You guys all have great points pro's and con's

Bottom line the hybirds do have higher initial cost, you have to put some miles on one before it will start to pay off. But I think the hybird technology is just starting to take off and we need people supporting the manufacturers to keep improving the technology. I applaud the people driving hybirds, they are supporting the future of technology.

I'm excitied for hybird and hydrogen based autos I think it will be the future of tomorrows commuter cars. For the guys driving a 4000lb pickup I think it will be awhile before you'll find huge mileage improvements.

I also dont worry about the big battery disposal argument, they already recycle lead acid batteries. You think they will take a 1500 dollar hybird battery put it in the dump??? Not likely.

Mitchell Andrus
10-20-2008, 10:56 PM
Americans are retarded when it comes to diesel.

It isn't at every gas station + it costs more which scares people who don't do the deeper math.

Dave Lehnert
10-20-2008, 10:59 PM
My mom has a 6 cylinder Buick Century (2003 I think) And you would not believe it but she gets 30-31 miles to the gallon. I have taken it on many trips and checks out each time. Ran into one guy with the same car and he also get the same. You would never guess.

Mitchell Andrus
10-20-2008, 11:03 PM
I have a 10 year warranty on them.

What does that mean? Do you get new batteries when they fall below 90% efficiency? 80%? 70%? Based on promised gas mileage? The batteries in my cordless tools rarely perform well after 4 years (but they do still work somewhat) and I don't park them in the driveway in the winter - in North Dakota. Who decides when the warranty kicks in and who says they won't change the 'rules' once we all have no choice but to buy cars with gas/elec systems?

I see greed raising it's ugly head once the govm't makes this a non-choice. I can also imagine the howls once we all start replacing/recycling battery pods every 60,000 miles at $2,500.00 a pop. By 2016 I figure this stuff will be news fodder. Conterfeit batteries on E-bay.

It won't be long before hybrid owners forgo the electric part of the system and just drive hybrids on gasoline like the rest of us. It'll be cheaper than replacing the batteries. Anyone think a hybrid with 150,000 miles and a shot battery worth maybe $6,000.00 will be getting a new $2,500.00 battery?

Car thieves steal cars for airbags..... Just wait.
.

Gary Click
10-20-2008, 11:08 PM
I drive a 2008 Highlander Hybrid and my wife has a 2008 Camry Hybrid. We have found them both to be very comfortable, suit our needs and to perform very well.

As Jim said the Highlander will smoke most cars on the road while still getting 25 to 27 mpg. Not bad for a 4200# SUV.

Gary Click
10-20-2008, 11:15 PM
BTW - I also have a 3/4T Ford Diesel PU.

I also like the truck and it also suits my needs VERY well. It gets about 17 to 19 mpg.

Don Abele
10-20-2008, 11:35 PM
I'm not talking power as in 0-60 times. I'm talking hooking up to a 20,000# trailer and not worrying. I've got a slightly hopped up 6spd diesel pickup, fast isn't a term I'm used to using with that, but I do have probably 300hp, and 700 ft/lbs torque at the ground, and I still get 20mpg!

Why don't they produce a diesel hybrids? Seems an obvious choice to me. Americans are retarded when it comes to diesel. Some sort of fear or stigma is attached to it. After owning a diesel pickup for the last few years I don't think I could go back to a gasser.

Karl, I have a 2000 Dodge Ram 3500 Dually. It's a beast at nearly 12,000 pounds. I get 13 mpg city and 22 mpg highway (thanks to the onboard computer). In the last year I drove it less than 3,000 miles, in short because of the $4.00 plus price for diesel. At it's worst, diesel here was over $5.00 a gallon. Thankfully I purchased a Kia Spectra for my daily commute into work (68 miles EACH way) which averages 35 mpg.

Overseas, diesel is more popular because it is cheaper to refine than gas. But, they also don't have the same emission standards we have. So we now have low sulfur diesel which is MORE costly to produce than gas. When I bought my truck in 2000, diesel was HALF the price of regular. Now it's more than premium.

When I bought my Kia, I didn't get a hybrid because my research indicated it took about 5 years to hit the tipping point. Since I transfer every 3 years, it wouldn't pay for itself before hand. Also, I do a lot of travel on the highway (about 50 miles each way) where the gas engine would be running and wouldn't see the economy derived from the electric engine. I figured that would have almost doubled my time to hit the tipping point. So I went with the 4 cylinder Spectra and haven't regretted it a day.

Be well,

Doc

Karl Brogger
10-21-2008, 6:00 PM
It isn't at every gas station + it costs more which scares people who don't do the deeper math.

Costing more is a recent thing. Up untill the past 4-5 years diesel has almost always been 5% +- less than gasoline. Why gas today at the local station is $2.499 and diesel is $3.499, I really don't know. Diesel isn't refined nearly as much as gasoline. Although now with the ULSD, (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel), there is more that they have to do, to make it work. Sulphur is a key ingredient for lubricity, and I think they've had a tough time getting it to work well. I dump a quart of 2 cycle oil in every tank just to save my injection pump from being destoyed from the new fuel.

Frank Hagan
10-21-2008, 7:27 PM
I'm not talking power as in 0-60 times. I'm talking hooking up to a 20,000# trailer and not worrying. I've got a slightly hopped up 6spd diesel pickup, fast isn't a term I'm used to using with that, but I do have probably 300hp, and 700 ft/lbs torque at the ground, and I still get 20mpg!

Why don't they produce a diesel hybrids? Seems an obvious choice to me. Americans are retarded when it comes to diesel. Some sort of fear or stigma is attached to it. After owning a diesel pickup for the last few years I don't think I could go back to a gasser.

You still need trucks to tow, and gas-hybrids could do it, but as you say, I think diesel is a better choice. Go biodiesel and you've solved the imported oil and the environmental concerns.

Frank Hagan
10-21-2008, 7:46 PM
What does that mean? Do you get new batteries when they fall below 90% efficiency? 80%? 70%? Based on promised gas mileage? The batteries in my cordless tools rarely perform well after 4 years (but they do still work somewhat) and I don't park them in the driveway in the winter - in North Dakota. Who decides when the warranty kicks in and who says they won't change the 'rules' once we all have no choice but to buy cars with gas/elec systems?

I see greed raising it's ugly head once the govm't makes this a non-choice. I can also imagine the howls once we all start replacing/recycling battery pods every 60,000 miles at $2,500.00 a pop. By 2016 I figure this stuff will be news fodder. Conterfeit batteries on E-bay.

It won't be long before hybrid owners forgo the electric part of the system and just drive hybrids on gasoline like the rest of us. It'll be cheaper than replacing the batteries. Anyone think a hybrid with 150,000 miles and a shot battery worth maybe $6,000.00 will be getting a new $2,500.00 battery?

Car thieves steal cars for airbags..... Just wait.
.

In California, the battery in the Prius is part of the emission system, and must be repaired or replaced at no charge if it fails within the 10 years or 150,000 miles. Replacement cost from the dealer for the entire battery pack for my Prius is now $2,588. So far, Toyota claims to have never had to replace one under warranty, and there are very few reports of people having battery packs fail in their Generation 1 models (made since 1997), much less the current model. There is a good supply of used and reconditioned battery packs since far more cars crash than have battery failures. Reconditioned packs are about $1,200.

I think part of the reason the batteries last so long is the energy management system prevents them from ever discharging past 50%. On my boat, they tell me to not discharge past 80% to keep the lead-acid battery healthy, so not fully discharging them seems like it would help.

I've driven my Prius 75,000 and have only changed the oil and filters. Small cars are usually more reliable than heavy workhorses, but the brakes on my Prius look brand new (the electric motors do the braking unless its a panic stop). There is no transmission fluid to worry about, so I have only things like front end parts (CV boots, struts, etc.) to consider.

Would I pay $1,200 to $2,500 for a new battery pack should mine fail after the warranty? If I still have it, I would. Its about the same as replacing a transmission.

Frank Hagan
10-21-2008, 7:54 PM
When I bought my Kia, I didn't get a hybrid because my research indicated it took about 5 years to hit the tipping point. Since I transfer every 3 years, it wouldn't pay for itself before hand. Also, I do a lot of travel on the highway (about 50 miles each way) where the gas engine would be running and wouldn't see the economy derived from the electric engine. I figured that would have almost doubled my time to hit the tipping point. So I went with the 4 cylinder Spectra and haven't regretted it a day.

Be well,

Doc

From a cost standpoint, you made the right decision. The price difference between the Kia and a Prius probably wouldn't work out even with 50 mpg in the Prius (what I get on my commute, mostly freeway). There is a misconception that the electric motors are engaged only at slow speed; the gas engine shuts off whenever it can, including any downgrade on the road. On my commute, I can see the mpg meter shoot up to the top whenever I'm traveling down a grade (my commute is 45 miles on Hwy 101 in California).

But you get less out of a battery when its cold, so your mileage in winter in MN would be less than mine. My Prius is worth almost what I paid for it, even with 75,000 miles, so I could sell it. But I hate to give up my car pool lane stickers (very valuable in southern California!)

Peter Quadarella
10-21-2008, 8:36 PM
I read a National Geographic article about a year ago that claimed that many in the auto industry felt hybrid technology was a dead end, and that diesel was where all the R&D money was going to. So you are not alone in your thoughts Karl.

Edit: Just editted to add - I also read an interesting book about various food choices. There was a part on biofuels which claimed that because so much artificial fertilizer is used to grow the corn to make the biofuel, and the artifical fertilizer requires a good amount of energy to produce, there is no net gain to using the biofuel in terms of conservation.

Looked it up, the book was called The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals.

Ross Ellis
10-21-2008, 9:45 PM
I drive a 2008 Highlander Hybrid and my wife has a 2008 Camry Hybrid. We have found them both to be very comfortable, suit our needs and to perform very well.

As Jim said the Highlander will smoke most cars on the road while still getting 25 to 27 mpg. Not bad for a 4200# SUV.

Can you clarify smoke?

I have been considering a hybrid as I have an 850 mile commute. I usually fly but occasionally drive. As of now I drive a Jeep and it gets about 20 mpg. I'm still waiting for the hybrids to get a little more advanced. It also seems that everytime I see a Prius they can't keep a steady speed. Like one minute they are going 70 and then slow down to 55 then speed up again. It gets annoying when they are in the left lane in front of you.

For the life of me I can't understand why the smaller non-hybrid cars are only getting 30-35 mpg. My second car is a tank and gets 25 average. My wife has an Outback that gets 27-28 mpg and is AWD. I don't get it....

Gary Click
10-21-2008, 10:19 PM
There is a commom misconception that a hybrid by design lacks in performance. The Highlander has a 3.3L V6 engine, a front electric motor and a rear electric motor. If you floor the accelerator all three engine/motors come on line using both the gas and battery reserves. This makes the Hybrid Highlander much quicker to accellerate than the standard model and quicker than most other cars on the market. The hardest thing for me to get used to is the lack of a transmission and any gear shifts.

Honestly for a long commute you may not see a huge difference between the Hybrid and non-Hybrid models and it may not make sense for you. For me it is maybe 5 mpg better on long road trips verses a standard Highlander, for the Camry it is quite a bit more. On mixed city and highway driving the difference is more apparent and more like 10 to 12 mpg for the Highlander. Tonight in stop and go (mostly stop) the HH was running in the 29-30 range over about 15 miles. My wifes Camry gets 35 mpg highway or city. As to fast /slow driving, I think this is likely the driver. both the HH and the Camry have more than enough power to hold steady speed on the road.

I think that the real difference in mileage is in the vehicle weight. A light car will get better mileage than a heavy given similar technology. The extra weight comes from things like sound deadening, size, accessories, etc.

Jim Becker
10-21-2008, 10:32 PM
It also seems that everytime I see a Prius they can't keep a steady speed. Like one minute they are going 70 and then slow down to 55 then speed up again. It gets annoying when they are in the left lane in front of you.

Blame the driver, not the car...I have zero problem keeping a steady speed with either of our hybrids. Without using cruise control, I might add. Unfortunately, there are many drivers who cannot innately sense something like steady speed. On the highway, especially, they should be using their cruise controls, both for safety and fuel economy. These same people would be driving you nuts no matter what car they are driving in front of you. IMHO, of course! There are also some folks who consider themselves "hyper-mileagers" and mistakenly let their vehicles slow down too much when coasting...something that's not necessary. The real finesse comes from easing on and off the peddle to both leverage fuel saving and steady speed. It's somewhat of an art...:o

Oh, and the comment about "smoke"...means smoke the tires. My Highlander Hybrid Limited rates at close to 270hp (combined gas/electric) and stomping on the gas peddle can have rocket-ship acceleration for such a heavy vehicle. Yea, it's not like a 1970's Camaro, but when you need to pull out into traffic "really quick", it gets the job done. Our Prius isn't bad in that respect, either. Tesla has been working on an all electric sports car (there are some funding concerns right now) and that thing practically IS a "rocket ship" based on what I've read!

Gary Click
10-21-2008, 10:48 PM
What he said!

Eric Larsen
10-21-2008, 10:50 PM
I'm waiting until they get the bugs worked out of the Aptera. (I'm not saying there are any bugs now, but I'll wait and see as our car gets 30mpg.)

100-200 mpg and up depending on how it is driven:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:46zBOpsPpH4c5M:http://streetknowledge.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/aptera_6.jpg (http://www.aptera.com)

PS -- No need to call people "retarded" for not using diesel engines. Diesel is not always the right tool for the job and in some towns it's difficult to find fuel.

Mitchell Andrus
10-21-2008, 11:07 PM
Diesel isn't refined nearly as much as gasoline.

Diesel is refined much more than gas and home heating fuel (same thing almost). They remove the sulfur from it for road use.

Mitchell Andrus
10-21-2008, 11:09 PM
My Prius is worth almost what I paid for it, even with 75,000 miles, so I could sell it.

Not likely to hold true when the market matures and used hybrids are everywhere.

Ken Fitzgerald
10-21-2008, 11:38 PM
Mitchell,


That market won't mature for awhile, I"ll bet!

Jim Becker
10-22-2008, 9:27 AM
I was very surprised at how much trade-in we got for our 2002 Prius in March with 85K miles on it...more than the then current "Fair Trade" value, even with a dent in the fender. We could, of course, sold it privately for more, but it was just easier to trade and get the sale tax advantage which pretty much made it a wash without the hassle of selling privately.

Ross Ellis
10-22-2008, 1:23 PM
Thanks for the info. I'll definatly look into the Highlander Hybrid when I am shopping for a new car. 270 hp seems respectable for an SUV. My jeep has an anemic 6 cyl 250+ horse but I wouldn't want to see the torque spec. It's got to be aweful.

I'll also add/clarify...Historically diesel WAS cheaper than gas. 2007 diesel like mentioned above is ultra low sulphur and runs quite a bit more to manufacture.

I think the car to watch for might be the Mini Cooper Wagon diesel. They are claiming 60-65 mpg. Not sure if it will make it to the states.

Frank Hagan
10-22-2008, 2:38 PM
Can you clarify smoke?

I have been considering a hybrid as I have an 850 mile commute. I usually fly but occasionally drive. As of now I drive a Jeep and it gets about 20 mpg. I'm still waiting for the hybrids to get a little more advanced. It also seems that everytime I see a Prius they can't keep a steady speed. Like one minute they are going 70 and then slow down to 55 then speed up again. It gets annoying when they are in the left lane in front of you.

For the life of me I can't understand why the smaller non-hybrid cars are only getting 30-35 mpg. My second car is a tank and gets 25 average. My wife has an Outback that gets 27-28 mpg and is AWD. I don't get it....

The speed up / slow down cycle is "hypermiling"; those folks can squeeze out 65 to 70 gpm by doing that. So they are doing it on purpose, but it is a detestable practice!

If you are looking for higher mileage, and the environmental aspects are not an issue for you, pick the higher mileage car you like and make the switch. When you calculate the cost for your commute in each car, it can be surprising. Focusing on mpg sometimes makes it more difficult to see how it really affects you.

Rounded numbers:
850 miles at 20 mpg: 42 gallons, or $127 at $3 a gallon
850 miles at 40 mpg: 21 gallons, or $63 at $3 a gallon

That's a pretty significant savings. But paying the extra to get to 50 mpg in a Prius might not be worth it: 17 gallons of gas versus 21 gallons only saves you an additional $12.

Frank Hagan
10-22-2008, 2:46 PM
Thanks for the info. I'll definatly look into the Highlander Hybrid when I am shopping for a new car. 270 hp seems respectable for an SUV. My jeep has an anemic 6 cyl 250+ horse but I wouldn't want to see the torque spec. It's got to be aweful.

I'll also add/clarify...Historically diesel WAS cheaper than gas. 2007 diesel like mentioned above is ultra low sulphur and runs quite a bit more to manufacture.

I think the car to watch for might be the Mini Cooper Wagon diesel. They are claiming 60-65 mpg. Not sure if it will make it to the states.

The mileage claims are usually European standards; often converted to Imperial gallons (larger than our US gallon). So the numbers will probably be a bit lower ... mid-50's I would imagine. Still pretty good!

BMW, Mercedes and VW are all using a special solution of urea injected into the fuel stream to reduce the NOx emissions to meet our EPA rules (and the more stingent CARB rules in California). I read the other day that for the BMW at least, the 7 gallon urea tank will need to be topped off at every oil change, probably adding substantial cost to the periodic maintenance. If the tank is neglected and runs out of urea, the car's system will give you a warning and a few more starts, and then you will be locked out, and the car won't run.

The Mini will be released as a pure electric vehicle also, with only front seats (the back is taken up with NimH batteries). They are touting a 150 mile range (probably 1/3 less in real life). That gets close to meeting daily commute needs for my 90 mile round trip.

Brian Elfert
10-22-2008, 10:41 PM
A co-worker has a Toyota Prius with around 120,000 miles. No issues with batteries yet and no real issues period.

As far as diesels go, I believe urea is being tested to meet the 2010 EPA regulations, not the 2007 EPA regulations that diesels must meet today. Either Cat or Cummins claims they can meet 2010 regulations today without urea with their big diesels for semi tractors.

Frank Hagan
10-22-2008, 10:46 PM
A co-worker has a Toyota Prius with around 120,000 miles. No issues with batteries yet and no real issues period.

As far as diesels go, I believe urea is being tested to meet the 2010 EPA regulations, not the 2007 EPA regulations that diesels must meet today. Either Cat or Cummins claims they can meet 2010 regulations today without urea with their big diesels for semi tractors.

I think trucks have different standards than passenger cars. There hasn't been a diesel passenger car legal in California in quite a while. The new models that are promised ... none are actually being sold here yet ... almost all use the urea injection system (the Jetta is being mentioned as an exception, but I don't think its available yet). There's an article on it at AutoBlogGreen (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/20/mercedes-new-bluetec-diesels-will-not-start-if-urea-runs-out/).