Plastic Resin Glue Seems Waterproof

[tom tangie]

I glued up a test with 4 thin laminations of 3 x 12 red oak with Weldwood Plastic Resin glue and set up in jig to cure with a bend radus. I let soak in a bucket of water for 2 days. When removed from the water, I can detect no degradation of the glue bond whatsoever. The squeezout glue seems unaffected, hard a rock, and the wood to wood bond of bent lams are solid and exactly before the water immersion.

Based on this I see no reason not to use Plastic Resin Glue for an outside chair project.

[Dustin Lane]

I've read of one waterproof test that involves boiling for 4 hours, dried for 20, boiled for another 4 and then chilled in water for another 20 and then tested for strength.

I'd be interested in how this glue would stand up to this test. I'm always looking for a cheaper way to waterproof a joint.

[tom tangie]

lol...well, I guess in some parts of the country that might represent the weather.......but I think soaking in a bucket of water should be a extreme representation of chair legs joints or rocker lamination sitting in standing water in my backyard

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
No sir, that's an interior only product.
It will not hold up in an exterior application nor will it remain intact in a "wet" environment.
The Plastic Resin product is an interior water resistant - not waterproof adhesive.

Resorcinol (messy) or Titebond III are the adhesives you want.

The Weldwood Plastic Resin does not stand up to repeated - with the emphasis on repeated - wet/dry cycles.
A single dunking, for even 48 hours, doesn't simulate weeks/months of repeated exposure to wet/dry.
It's on the same par as Titebond II, which BTW would probably also pass the "48 hour dunk".
I have two pieces of scrap 2x6 I glued together sitting in the driveway using Titebond II - just to see how it held up.
I put them out there earlier this summer and so far they appear to be OK. I doubt if they will make it through the Winter.

[tom tangie]

After a 2nd day immersed in water, the squeeze has started to soften. I can see that it may be considered water resistent, but not suitable for outside furniture especially that may be exposed to standing water.

[Thomas S Stockton]

Tom
Weldwood is an exterior glue. I used to work in an outdoor furniture shop making very high end exterior furniture and it was all we used and we didn't have problems with it. It is a type 2 glue, water resistant but not for use below the waterline or continuous immersion. Both titebond 2 and 3 also say they are not for below the waterline. Boatbuilders have used it for years with good results. Weldwood also says that it takes 7 days to reach maximum water resistance and strength.
With that said it does have some drawbacks, it is fairly heat sensitive and mixing it is a pain.
In the last 15 years or so a lot of different glues have come out with the same water resistant properties that you don't have to mix and are much more temperature friendly and also don't contain formaldahyde which is known to cause health problems.
I would say if you want to use it you won't have problems but you have other options in titebond 2 or 3 and polyurethane glues. I personally would go for titebond 3, I don't really care for poly glues but they do work well with oily woods.
for more info check out www.dap.com and www.titebond.com
Tom

[Howard Acheson]

I glued up a test with 4 thin laminations of 3 x 12 red oak with Weldwood Plastic Resin glue and set up in jig to cure with a bend radus. I let soak in a bucket of water for 2 days. When removed from the water, I can detect no degradation of the glue bond whatsoever. The squeezout glue seems unaffected, hard a rock, and the wood to wood bond of bent lams are solid and exactly before the water immersion.

Based on this I see no reason not to use Plastic Resin Glue for an outside chair project.

DAP/Weldwood Plastic Resin is rated ANSI Type II water resistant. Water resistant adhesives are fine for repeated wet/dry cycles and a just fine for an exterior applications. ANSI Type I water proof is a testing procedure that involves involves long term submersion in boiling water. Type I adhesives are rated for totally submerged underwater applications.

[tom tangie]

all the theory and conjecture is interesting......but for an outdoor rocker where the rocker laminations could be exposed to standing water the plastic resin glue will fail quickly. I have proven this by immersing a lamination in water. After 2 days the squeeze out became soft. I expect that tommorrow I will be able to seperate the laminations easily. Solid tests in a realistic environment are always best

[John Bush]

I maded an octagonal patio table with eight individual benches using cedar and Weldwood Resin Glue. It was recommended for outdoor applications and I could vary the working time to some degree. Some winters it would make it to the storage shed, some it didn't and after 15 years, the glue had dissintegrated in virtually all the joints. I splined all the table rim joints, M&T'd most of the others, and laminated the bench feet and table pedestal. I was able to separate most of the joints without tearing up the cedar and reglued with Tightbond III after "freshening up" the joined surfaces. It seems that the joints stayed stable for the first 12-13 years, and I'm not sure if that classifies as a failure. Still holding up, hopefully for another 15.

[Frank Hagan]

Having laminated a boat's keel using Weldwood, I can attest that it is indeed suitable for outdoor applications (the boat was a trailer sailer, so it wasn't in the water all the time). Its fine to use for most things, but there are better glues and epoxies now (although epoxy isn't actually waterproof, but pretty darn close).

[tom tangie]

the plastic resin glue lamination that has disintegrated while sitting in a bucket of water in my backyard would disagree. thats why its good to do these tests rather then depend on the advise given in the ether.

[Mark Koury]

Resorcinol - the classic waterproof glue - just don’t mix or use it if room temp is cold.

[Frank Drew]

Tom,

How soon after the glueup did you dunk the lamination in the bucket of water?

[Howard Acheson]

Urea formaldehyde adhesive like DAP/Weldwood will fail the test you set up. There are two reasons. One is that red oak is a very porous wood having a poor reaction to moisture. That's the reason it's not considered a good wood for exterior applications. Second, as I said above, urea formaldehyde is ANSI Type II adhesive. ANSI Type II adhesives are not recommended for applications that have continuous submersion. For that application, you want a ANSI Type I adhesive like urea rescorcinal, epoxy or Titebond III.

[Leo Graywacz]

Use the West System Epoxy. It is a structural Marine Epoxy, water proof.

[Frank Hagan]

I like epoxy for permanent waterproof applications. One criticism is that you can't "undo" an epoxy joint, but you can with heat; at about 140°F the epoxy will start to soften. Otherwise, the joint will stay glued nearly forever!

You can color epoxy also; for a tan, "golden oak" or teak color, mix in a little pine wood flour. For a dark brown, mahogany color, use maple wood flour. These add body to the mixture, and can be used for gap filling.

The West folks have a lot of technical information available, and it applies to nearly all the epoxy out there (there are dozens of suppliers; I actually prefer RAKA or System Three epoxy to West).

[tom tangie]

day 3 of the plastic resin glue soak:

4 lamination of 0.2" white oak glued with Dap plastic resin glue and bent in form to cure. Then immersed in a bucket of room temp water and left to soak.

after 3 days, the glue squeezeout on the edges and ends has dissolved away.
the laminations themselves are beginning to seperate on the ends.

This was to simulate what white oak rockers might encounter in an outside environment with standing water.

not water proof

[tom tangie]

Tom,

How soon after the glueup did you dunk the lamination in the bucket of water?
it was about 24 hours after the initial mix of glue.

[Thomas S Stockton]

Instructions on the tub clearly state wait 7 days for maximum strength and water resistance. Might be why your having problems.
Tom

[tom tangie]

Slow setting epoxy sounds like the way to go. plastic resin glue just wont hold up in standing water.

[tom tangie]

day 5 of the plastic resin glue soak:

4 laminations of 0.2" wide 4 x 12" white oak glued with Dap plastic resin glue and bent in form to cure. Then immersed in a bucket of room temp water and left to soak.

after 5 days, the ends and sides near the end and be pulled apart with finger strength.

This was to simulate what white oak rockers might encounter in an outside environment with standing water.

Not water proof


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[tom tangie]

day 9 of the plastic resin glue soak:

4 laminations of 0.2" wide 4 x 12" white oak glued with Dap plastic resin glue and bent in form to cure. Then immersed in a bucket of room temp water and left to soak.

after 9 days, the ends and sides near the end and be pulled apart with finger strength and with a little prying the entire edges of the lam can be pulled away. its just a matter of time before the water dissolved all the glue.

This was to simulate what white oak rockers might encounter in an outside environment with standing water.

Not water proof

[Frank Hagan]

Are you going to try the test with some other glues, like the waterproof Titebond and the one I can never spell (roscinol?). I think that would be interesting.

[tom tangie]

no. I plan to use slow setting epoxy for the rocker laminations. I know its waterproof. Plastic resin glue is not waterproof and wont hold up outside

[Frank Hagan]

Epoxy joints do fail, but usually due to heat (epoxy starts to soften at 140°F or so, and a dark colored item in the sun in Palm Springs or Phoenix gets that hot.) I have seen some failures of epoxy in water as well, usually from not putting on a thick enough coat when laminating (epoxy isn't truly "waterproof"; you have to get to a certain thickness before it stops water completely).