DC Upgrading

[Anthony Whitesell]

I have posted a few opinion polls (some without an actual voting poll) and have learned a lot from the responses. I hope others have too. Well, I have another situation that I would like to get the 'experts' opinions on here at the 'creek.

I have a 1 1/2HP Rigid DC with a 4" inlet. The Rigid looks a lot like the Delta AP400 (upper/lower cloth bags, 4" inlet on the bottom side) The Delta AP400 is rated at 650CFM, SP=8.5" WC. Based on the similarity, I'll use those numbers for the Rigid. I don't have the room to roll the DC from machine to machine, so I used the black plastic (non-wired) hose for my ductwork before I found the 'creek and knew better. My problem is that I might be outgrowing (or maybe I already have) this machine. I need to modify the ductwork to add in drops for the new bandsaw. What hurts most is that I'll have to buy more of the 4" stuff.

I was looking at Craigslist for used DCs and have found a few available, but I don't know if I'm taking a large enough step to get a decent performance increase. I have found a Jet DC-1100 and a Penn State DC2v2. The Jet is spec'ed at 1100 CFM and the PSI at 1250. I don't mind get a little more than what I need, but I also don't want too much overkill.

If this was the DC you had and you wanted (or needed) something larger (given that any change means all new ductwork), would you move from the 650CFM to 1100 or 1500 CFM DC and would it be a cyclone or a bag style? Or would you opt for more like an 1800 CFM cyclone?

[Burt Alcantara]

Anthony,
I wouldn't base a decision on these numbers as they are highly suspect. Like all things marketing, you can make data come out to whatever you want.

Ask people what their experiences are with a particular dust collector. Don't go by the numbers as you will be sorely disappointed.

I have a ClearVue CV1400. It is a cyclone and has a Leeson 5hp 200v motor. It is very powerful but very loud. In my small shop I can keep 2 4" ports and 2 6" ports open and still get excellent dust collection on any machine that's connected to it.

My DC is rated at 1100 cfm optimally. My system design is not optimal yet I have tremendous air movement.

I've since taken the DC down to move into a different room for noise isolation. I will be running substantially more ports. Don't have any data points ot offer yet.

Burt

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Anthony, like many of us, you've started out with a bag type collector and now are at the replacement stage.

I have an Oneida 1.5HP cyclone with external filter in my basement shop. It works great.

What you need to do, is sit down and make a drawing of what you would like your shop to look like in 5 or 10 years, depending upon your budget.

What machinery do you want to have in the future? Lay it out on paper, calculate out the airflow requirements and duct layout so you can get static pressure losses.

Once you have the SP losses and the airflow requirements, you can purchase a cyclone that won't require replacing again. You don't have to put all the ducting in, you can add later if you've pre-planned for future requirements.

Having gone with a high quality cyclone and filter, my shop is clean, my house is clean, my lungs are clean. It was the best machinery investment I've made.

Regards, Rod.

[Chris Padilla]

Yep, what Rod and Burt said: forget the CFM numbers and to a certain extent, forget the HP numbers, too.

Speaking from cyclone experience, it is the size of the impeller that is key and after that, it is the size of the ductwork that is key.

Just read what others on here have said about their choice of DC. You can hardly go wrong with Oneida or ClearVue. I have a Bill Pentz kit from when he was partnering up with Clarke Echols. I have a 5 HP Leeson motor (probably really 3) and a 14" impeller in a nice heavy duty metal housing and 6" PVC all around. The thing flat out SUCKS--in a good way! :) Click here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=9933) for a thread on my build. :)

[Anthony Whitesell]

I hear what you guys are saying. I am trying to trade-off how big I need to go now, how big I'll need to go later, versus how big I can go.

I have a small bag DC. Should I move up to a large bag DC (two used possibilities have presented themselves but aren't a great bargain), or to a small cyclone, or to a large cyclone. Although I have my reservations about the PSI equipment, they have selections at each of the sizes i'm considering as well as performance graphs for each system, so I have been using their stuff to review the trade-offs in performance and price.

While looking at the PSI equipment, I noticed they have a cyclone and a bag DC that have close to the same performance. Why spend the extra for a cyclone of the same performance of the less expensive bag DC?

[Burt Alcantara]

Things to consider. How much space can you alot to the DC? As you go bigger, the noise gets bigger too. As you go bigger the ducting needs to be bigger, think 6". Most likely you don't have 6" ports on ANY machine so that is something to think about.

What machines are you considering down the road? Or, what do you feel you're lacking now and may lack later? Do you cut a lot of MDF? MDF dust is nasty nasty so you want to get that up quickly and efficiently.

How long do you think you may stay in your present location -- either shop wise or house wise? If you moved to bigger, would your DC be able to handle the load? If you went smaller could you shoehorn the DC into the space?

In my case, I had to move the DC out of the shop because of noise and space. I wanted a bigger cyclone (18" vs 14") but don't have the headroom. A bigger cyclone would let me put it in the garage.

If you go with a bag, throw the bag away and get a cartridge filter. They are substantially better for your lungs and are available in a variety of sizes, shapes and prices.

Keep asking questions. Eventually, it will become clear...(as mud). :D
Burt

[Anthony Whitesell]

I am just using the terms "bag" and "cyclone" to differentiate between the systems. Bag or canister is really the same 'style' machine versus the cyclone.

Small house. HA! Larger, definately. Garage, probably. No worries on that end. I have seen a few 'complete' shops listed on craigslist lately. When I compare them to what I have, I'm not missing much. I have the planer, router table, table saw, drum sander, and bandsaw. I'm definately missing the 8" jointer, SCMS, and 6" belt/9" disc sander. I don't see a shaper in my future. As for the ports, the router table andtable saw are custom. The planer and drum sander are OEM and fixed at 4" with no chance of enlarging them, The bandsaw is dual 4" also with no chance of enlarging them either, but I would use a 6x4x4 wye to connect to them instead of a 4x4x4.

Definately looking to go to the 6" duct work. I think I have too long a run in the first place for 4" especially with the bottom entry design of my current DC. I've loaded a lot of dust work into a VERY small area. The router table area run is ~13' with 4 90's and the table saw area is ~23' with 4 90s, a wye, and a 45.

Based on the fact that I have heard several people mention increased noise levels for a cyclone. How much more noise? What kind of noise is it? Rushing air, loaded motor, or what?

[Joel Earl]

I won't try to address the questions but toss out a what I did since noise makes me nuts.

I had a PSI Tempest 3hp cyclone - ran 6" duct and around 45' of it, 6 wyes and some flex w/ gates. It made me crazy --- to loud.
Few months back I had enough and bought the PSI 2 hp bag/cannister unit for about $289 (sale). Way way way quiter, and still handles all the duct work. The suck at the farther spot may have dropped a wee bit - once in awhile a chip is still there on the big planer. Seldom but it's happened. If it ever becomes a real problem I'll swith around a tool.

Noise - it's now very tolerable. I seldom notice it when the radios on. Big difference.
How come the noise factor isn't addressed more I wonder??? For some of us it's the difference between a whole setup. I had never heard the noise thing discussed at all 2 years ago:(