Has Festool solved the squareness problem with the new MFT3 table?

[Daniel Hillmer]

I was wondering if anyone here owns both the MFT 1080 and has also purchased the new MFT3 table? In Dec ?06 I invested two grand into the MFT’s, the saw and an orbital sander, the table makes a great clamping table and I love the saw and sander itself, but...

I recently saw the new MFT3 a few months ago at my local dealer. It looks like they improved upon the MFT, BUT, can anyone truly say that the new table has improved the making square cuts problems of the MFT 1080, and that the MFT3 is either equal to or better than a 3 hp cabinet saw in the accuracy of making repeatable square cuts?

I gave up on using the MFT fence and trying to get it and keep it square to the rail, so I went out and bought a Pinnacle precision cabinet makers t square and now I scribe all my cut lines manually and just line up my rail on the scribed line, and they come out OK. But when I use that fence and rail, I have never been satisfied with the squareness and repeatability of my cuts on the MFT rail and fence set up, no matter how much time I put into squaring up the rail to the fence.

I ask this because I am seriously thinking about buying a table saw instead of the new MFT, I can get a 3 HP cabinet saw cast iron top for under 1,000 USD and since I already have two MFT’s I can use as a panel saw and clamping table, I could use the table saw for my more accurate cuts. The going rate for the new MFT3 table is around $570.00

Unless someone can convince me without a doubt, that the new MFT3 table can make repeatable, square cuts, without modifications, fiddling, and long set up times?

[Dave Falkenstein]

Dan - It is hard to understand how you are getting "OK" results using a t-square and laying down the guide rail, and you cannot get satisfactory results using the MFT fence and guide rail. I'm not trying to talk you out of buying a table saw - I have a cabinet saw and have never considered getting rid of it. I also have two MFT 1080's connected into a larger table. Have you read Jerry Work's manual on the MFT:

http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/tip_detail.html?sid=1c82dafc683804ed1099249ea87d11 0e&tid=16

Click on View Tip to download the PDF file.

I'll sound like I'm beating a dead horse, but... There are lots of threads on the MFT and MFT3 at the Festool Owners Group. In another recent post, I think you said you have never been there. Give it a try..

ps - I see a post at FOG that looks like yours. Good luck.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Hi Dave,

First of all I’d like to thank you for all your helpful advice and yes I started visiting the Festool owners group over the weekend.


Dan - It is hard to understand how you are getting "OK" results using a t-square and laying down the guide rail, and you cannot get satisfactory results using the MFT fence and guide rail.

I was getting better results because I was scribing a line along the t square, not using a pencil and then aligning the guide rail strip on the scribed line. When I really, really take my time, I can get near perfect plywood panels because a scribed line on a precision t square is dead on, I was getting no more run out than 1/100th of an inch with the Pinnacle, pretty good doing it by hand. Very time consuming though.


I'm not trying to talk you out of buying a table saw - I have a cabinet saw and have never considered getting rid of it. I also have two MFT 1080's connected into a larger table.

Actually I went ahead and just ordered the Grizzly 1023SL yesterday afternoon, it was an offer I could not refuse – I had the choice of buying the new MFT3 for $650.00 (including table stabilizer cross members because I have been hearing on the Festool Owners Group that the table is a bit shaky), or I could get a new grizzly 3 hp, cast iron 400 lb cabinet saw for a hundred dollars more ($755.00 if ordered on ebay with Microsoft cash back rebate), pretty hard to pass up. Made the choice a lot easier. Another guy at the Festool Owners Group said that an MFT and a table saw compliment each other very well which I agree.

I think Festool power tools are great and will be buying a 1400 router later this week. I’ll still be using the MFT table for clamping and doing pocket hole joinery for face frames, as a panel saw, etc. I’ll just be using the TS for my final precise cuts now.


Have you read Jerry Work's manual on the MFT:

http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/t...87d110e&tid=16 (http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/t...87d110e&tid=16%5b/quote)




Actually I have read it from time to time over the past several months, it’s an absolutely wonderful guide to the MFT.

One thing I just noticed in his manual though, is that huge, thick engineers t square. Do you know where I could buy one?

I could never find one that thick – had I found one of those it could have solved many of the problems I was having with the MFT. I was looking for one of those for weeks right after I bought the MFT.

The main idea I noticed in his manual, is that it seems to focus on the MFT system as a build table, not as a replacement for a table saw. Which is fine, it makes a great build table and that’s how I see myself using it most of the time from now on. That and a panel saw. In the section in mirroring – making cuts in cabinet walls to be exactly the same, he is talking about doing this with the router, not the saw. I can see myself doing stuff like that in the future, after the kitchen cabinets are done.

In regard to the Festool MFT setup as a replacement to a table saw...

That’s one thing I could never understand about how Festool markets this product - they need to either start selling a high quality precise, large square (at least 12 inches) as part of their accessories for the MFT (if their aim is to truly market the MFT as a replacement for a table saw, which was the way I was sold by a festool employee at a Woodworking Show). Either that, or make it very obvious in their literature, AND on their web site, AND at woodworking shows, that a high quality, and precise THICK square is needed to quickly and accurately square up the MFT table and also provide info on where one can purchase one. I’m sure there are many folks who have been into woodworking for a long time and know how to square this table up without a high quality precise square, yet many people who buy such a table are first time woodworkers and Festool sure does not make it easy if their new customers have never seen a table like this before and plan on buying it instead of a table saw for that main function.

The Festool employee at the woodworking show who was demonstrating the MFT to me, was using one of those orange, cheap plastic carpenters squares we all see at Home Depot tool section, to demonstrate how to square up the fence to the rail. This device is woefully in adequate to square up the MFT. And the Festool guy was telling me that this was all that was needed to square up the rail to the fence. So they need to change the way they sell this product in my opinion - train their employees better. I was dumb too, to think I could square this up using junk like that. They are fine if you are cutting 2 x 4's for framing and want to quickly scrawl a fast cut line across and take it to a miter saw, not for precise squaring up this table. And an engineers square of that high quality and thickness is going to prob cost at least a hundred bucks in addition to the MFT, so it brings the price of the MFT plus such a square up to the same price of the (discounted) 3 hp cabinet saw, and that's not even including the price of the festool saw - the 55eq and MFT 3 package currently sells for around $995.00, same (undiscounted) price og the 1023S.

I’ve also read that another way to square up the table is to get some Baltic birch or MDF and cut a large, thick piece perfectly square piece and use it to square the rail to the fence. But if you don’t have a table saw to do it, how are you going to cut one (catch 22)? Ha-ha buy a table saw first to cut a piece of wood to square the festool table saw replacement... I’m not making fun of anyone purposely it’s just funny, unfortunately I don’t have any friends near by who own a good table saw to do this, maybe you can see the comedy in this.

In regard to using the MFT tables as a complete replacement of a table saw, I did not see anything with the marketing of the new MFT3 that addresses the squareness issue, because even though they have improved the extrusions and maybe setup time is a bit faster, ultimately the MFT3 uses the same concept of removable extruded aluminum guide rails, and their web site and literature are woefully inadequate - because when the guide rail is taken down for multiple operation capability of the table, it always needs to be re squared when put back on. Festool has done a poor job of educating their customers as to how to do it, and also not done a good job of providing accessories to help square up the rail. They expect their customers to dig and dig for this information. With a table saw, you just clamp down the fence in two seconds, and you are ready to go and make square cuts all day long.

I have read some posts that say, well, if you are only wanting to use it as a table saw, then just square up the rail one time, and don't ever take the rail off. If this is the case, then you may as well buy a cabinet saw (unless you need the portability). Because if you never take the rail off, it's sometimes hard to use the table for other tasks because the rail sometimes gets in the way. So if you are never going to use the MFT for other than as a table saw, and you never plan to move it around, you may as well buy the table saw. And if you just want to buy the table by itself without the guide rail and fence and not use it as a table saw but as a clamping table, they are only offering about a 100 dollar discount off the table if you buy it without the rail and fence, which implies they either don't want to sell the table without the rail and fence, or are acknowledging that the table saw they are selling is really only worth about a hundred bucks and that you can expect $100 dolllar accuracy for use as a table saw, and that the table saw they are selling is really a build table that can be converted to a cheap table saw.

If I had to do this all over again knowing what I know now, for building my kitchen cabinets, to save time and money I would have bought a table saw, and to rough cut my cabinet walls I would have just thrown my plywood sheets over a saw horse and used my cheapo B & D circ saw. And then later when I got into woodworking as a hobby for building small or specialized projects, I would have (maybe) bought into the festool system for the multi functionality of the MFT as a build table, a clamping table, a table for doing hand held router operations and (with a thick engineers square I could never find) a saw table of some sort.

Anyway thanks all for the great advice.

[John Stevens]

I’ve also read that another way to square up the table is to get some Baltic birch or MDF and cut a large, thick piece perfectly square piece and use it to square the rail to the fence. But if you don’t have a table saw to do it, how are you going to cut one (catch 22)? Ha-ha buy a table saw first to cut a piece of wood to square the festool table saw replacement... I’m not making fun of anyone purposely it’s just funny, unfortunately I don’t have any friends near by who own a good table saw to do this, maybe you can see the comedy in this.

Hi, Dan. I understand your frustration, and I would have agreed with your point if I didn't use this for setting up my MFT (and TS miter gauge):

http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/Double-Error-Squaring.html

It takes a little time, but is faster and easier than the "five cut" method. I have used it to square my MFT fence so accurately that I could not measure any error over a 19" (500mm) edge using my Starrett feeler gauges.

I didn't mention in the other thread because I think it's faster to use the holes to align the guide rail and fence, although I still prefer the method in the link above.

Hope this helps.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Thanks very much John, I will definitely be trying your method over the next few days. As a sidebar, the biggest reason why I am frustrated about this situation, is in the festool on line manual for the MFT, it shows the method of squaring the fence to the rail (and also retro fitting the MFT table) by using a large, thick engineers square. I searched for “engineers square” and also “engineering square” of this size via google shopping, and no one sells one like it. No one. The only squares I can find, are the el cheapo small sized squares six inches long max, no where thick enough to reach the rail back edge, totally in adequate for the task, and NOTHING like the one pictured on the Festoolusa.com web site. Actually I remember looking for this mysterious, non existent square almost two years ago, when I first brought the table home. I came up empty then too.

So if Festool is going to have it in their manual for a product they charge a thousand dollars for:

http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/getting_the_most_from_the_mft_multifunction_table. pdf

the need for such an item which not only do they not sell, nor does one even exist, well, that just wrong. And it’s misleading. Festool is doing their customers a HUGE dis service and this alone is another reason why I won’t be buying any more MFT products from them. Because of their misleading advertising of the MFT product line.

Not only do they advocate the use of such a non existent square, they also provide no other methods in their official manual for squaring up this expensive tool (such as your above method), which is another reason why not to buy it until they correct this huge marketing fopaw. And personally, in some ways, I feel cheated because of this square issue. Not to say the table is not useful to me for other things, which I will be doing, it's just that their employees and their marketing mis represent the product in some ways.

Most of my time over at the festool owners group the past several days, was spent reading threads about the MFT, threads of loyal festool customers trying to figure out how to retro fit their MFT tables and make them work as festool indented and cut square. That’s wrong. To expect customers to fix a product.

If someone can tell me where I can buy such a square, I will eat my words and take back everything I said.

As a sidebar, I know a little bit about machining and precise measuring tools having worked in a machine shop for a summer job in high school, and having recently paid 8o bucks for small Starrett combination square, I would not at all be surprised if the "Engineers Square" pictured in the manual on the Festool web site, was custom designed and cost hundreds maybe even thousands of dollars, probably more than the MFT table itself. Because there is nothing like it on the Starrett web site. And this to me is false advertising, to suggest to customers to go out and buy a non existent product to make the product they are selling work. Either that, or go out and buy a product that costs more than the original product, to make the product work. Either that, or retro fit it in some way, or dig for the information. Just something like John's method above in the festool manual would have been helpful and saved a lot of time. Instead, festool expects customers to get the info from the internet, off site and separate from any of their product documentation.

[Dave Bender]

When setting two fences perpendicular you really need some distance down both legs in order to setup square properly. Any guided rail system (Festool, EZ, etc) runs into the problem of being hard to repetably set up due to design. A much easier tool to setup is a crosscut carrige on a sliding table saw. With that you're able to use a decent set screw, three feet or so from the pivot, which makes it very simple to setup very accurately. I rarely take my sliding carrige off so I rarely have to align it. On those rare occasions I do remove it (or change my fence from perpendicular) I end up doing a 5 side cut to realign things. Once aligned, that last piece of MDF used in the 5 side cut has very square corners and I use it as a setup square for case work, layout, or to setup Festool guide rails. It's cheap and easy to make large, accurate squares if you understand what the 5 sided cut gives you.

[Jason Perrott]

Daniel,
Congrats on the table saw, good deal...
Sounds like you need some nice layout tools, check these out:

http://www.woodpeck.com/measuringhome.html

I love the 18" carpenters square, and the pro-t rules with the .05 mm holes make layout a breeze with high toleances.

Jason

[Bob Marino]

Thanks very much John, I will definitely be trying your method over the next few days. As a sidebar, the biggest reason why I am frustrated about this situation, is in the festool on line manual for the MFT, it shows the method of squaring the fence to the rail (and also retro fitting the MFT table) by using a large, thick engineers square. I searched for “engineers square” and also “engineering square” of this size via google shopping, and no one sells one like it. No one. The only squares I can find, are the el cheapo small sized squares six inches long max, no where thick enough to reach the rail back edge, totally in adequate for the task, and NOTHING like the one pictured on the Festoolusa.com web site. Actually I remember looking for this mysterious, non existent square almost two years ago, when I first brought the table home. I came up empty then too.

So if Festool is going to have it in their manual for a product they charge a thousand dollars for:

http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/getting_the_most_from_the_mft_multifunction_table. pdf

the need for such an item which not only do they not sell, nor does one even exist, well, that just wrong. And it’s misleading. Festool is doing their customers a HUGE dis service and this alone is another reason why I won’t be buying any more MFT products from them. Because of their misleading advertising of the MFT product line.

Not only do they advocate the use of such a non existent square, they also provide no other methods in their official manual for squaring up this expensive tool (such as your above method), which is another reason why not to buy it until they correct this huge marketing fopaw. And personally, in some ways, I feel cheated because of this square issue. Not to say the table is not useful to me for other things, which I will be doing, it's just that their employees and their marketing mis represent the product in some ways.

Most of my time over at the festool owners group the past several days, was spent reading threads about the MFT, threads of loyal festool customers trying to figure out how to retro fit their MFT tables and make them work as festool indented and cut square. That’s wrong. To expect customers to fix a product.

If someone can tell me where I can buy such a square, I will eat my words and take back everything I said.

As a sidebar, I know a little bit about machining and precise measuring tools having worked in a machine shop for a summer job in high school, and having recently paid 8o bucks for small Starrett combination square, I would not at all be surprised if the "Engineers Square" pictured in the manual on the Festool web site, was custom designed and cost hundreds maybe even thousands of dollars, probably more than the MFT table itself. Because there is nothing like it on the Starrett web site. And this to me is false advertising, to suggest to customers to go out and buy a non existent product to make the product they are selling work. Either that, or go out and buy a product that costs more than the original product, to make the product work. Either that, or retro fit it in some way, or dig for the information. Just something like John's method above in the festool manual would have been helpful and saved a lot of time. Instead, festool expects customers to get the info from the internet, off site and separate from any of their product documentation.


Oh, my goodness!:confused: A few points. That is not Festool's Manual, it was writen by Jerry Work for Festool and is more of a "how to get he most out of the MFT" rather than a strict manual, although Festool's basic manuals are to put it nicely, too basic.
As for myself, I use a Woodpecker or Starrett square on my MFT and have never had a problem. And regarding that HUGE square Jerry is using, I bought 2 of them -IIRC, they were about $40.00 each or so. I can try and find out where I bought them a couple years ago.

Bob

[Frank Martin]

I too had one (old 1080) and had the same squareness problem and ended up selling it. About MFT replacing a cabinet saw... I don't think so. In my opinion, the repeatability, speed, and ease of changing set up of a good cabinet saw far exceeds that of the MFT. Once Festool truly addresses the squareness problem I may take another look at the MFT, but for now MFT3 does not seem to be the answer. I am sure it is better than nothing if you have to do onsite work, but for in the shop use, it is no competitor for a cabinet saw. If the squareness problem was addressed it would be a great complement though....

I have lots of Festools (sanders, domino, router, etc.) MFT was the one that I simply did not like.

[Dino Makropoulos]

When setting two fences perpendicular you really need some distance down both legs in order to setup square properly. Any guided rail system (Festool, EZ, etc) runs into the problem of being hard to repetably set up due to design. A much easier tool to setup is a crosscut carrige on a sliding table saw. With that you're able to use a decent set screw, three feet or so from the pivot, which makes it very simple to setup very accurately. I rarely take my sliding carrige off so I rarely have to align it. On those rare occasions I do remove it (or change my fence from perpendicular) I end up doing a 5 side cut to realign things. Once aligned, that last piece of MDF used in the 5 side cut has very square corners and I use it as a setup square for case work, layout, or to setup Festool guide rails. It's cheap and easy to make large, accurate squares if you understand what the 5 sided cut gives you.

Dave,
I don't think it's right to include the ez smart system in your statement.
It's like saying that all tablesaws are the same.
The Ez Powerbench features self aligning rails, a unique self aligning Bridge and few more features not offered by any other guide system.
The results:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=94509
Not trying to start any "tool-wars" here.
Just stating the facts.

The accuracy of the ez smart Powerbench-Bridge is much better than any
other guide system and tablesaw.


Thanks.
Dino Makropoulos.
Eurekazone inc.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Dave,
I don't think it's right to include the ez smart system in your statement.
It's like saying that all tablesaws are the same.
The Ez Powerbench features self aligning rails, a unique self aligning Bridge and few more features not offered by any other guide system.
The results:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=94509
Not trying to start any "tool-wars" here.
Just stating the facts.

The accuracy of the ez smart Powerbench-Bridge is much better than any
other guide system and tablesaw.


Thanks.
Dino Makropoulos.
Eurekazone inc.

Hi Dino,

Not trying to put you on the spot here, I'm just curious, have you commissioned any independent laboratory testing comparing the accuracy of the ez smart Powerbench-Bridge system to any particular brand/model of table saws?

I don't think Festool has...

[Bob Marino]

Not only do they advocate the use of such a non existent square, they also provide no other methods in their official manual for squaring up this expensive tool (such as your above method), which is another reason why not to buy it until they correct this huge marketing fopaw. And personally, in some ways, I feel cheated because of this square issue. Not to say the table is not useful to me for other things, which I will be doing, it's just that their employees and their marketing mis represent the product in some ways.

If someone can tell me where I can buy such a square, I will eat my words and take back everything I said.

Daniel,

Enco no longer has that square (again, I have 2, paid $50 something).

Here's that square or one that's a dead ringer.
http://www.ts-aligner.com/accessories.htm

Bob

[Chris Padilla]

Daniel,[/size]

Enco no longer has that square (again, I have 2, paid $50 something).

Here's that square or one that's a dead ringer.
http://www.ts-aligner.com/accessories.htm

Bob

$160 for an 18" square...that's not too bad and would be at least 2x that for a Starrett I think.

What say you, Daniel?! :D

[Dave Bender]

Dino, a friend (who will remain nameless) has your EZ system. Although it is a good system, the bridge as well as the smart square suffer from the same problem as the Festool system when making square cuts. You just don't have the same ability to make fine adjustments as you do with other systems that can spread the adjustment over a longer distance. It's not hard to setup a Festool or EZ system to make very square cuts but you do need to go through the setup each time and check it. I was fortunate in my younger years (back in the 70's) to have a machine shop owner friend of my father help me design and build a rail system for building large speaker cabinets for concert use. The key now as it was then is to let distance work for you in setting up your crosscut fence. I'm not knocking your system at all. There are things about it that I like but for what I do most often the Festool system works for me. I mainly use the 1010 router with guide rails for doing 32mm hole drilling. I don't have the space in my garage (or the money) to get a line boring machine.

[Chris Padilla]

Let's put a halt on the EZ vs. Festool stuff or this thread will quickly spiral out of control and need to be pulled.

Please stick to the main topic the OP started. Further posts of EZ vs. Festool will be pulled.

Thanks!!

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino, a friend (who will remain nameless) has your EZ system. Although it is a good system, the bridge as well as the smart square suffer from the same problem as the Festool system when making square cuts. You just don't have the same ability to make fine adjustments as you do with other systems that can spread the adjustment over a longer distance. It's not hard to setup a Festool or EZ system to make very square cuts but you do need to go through the setup each time and check it. I was fortunate in my younger years (back in the 70's) to have a machine shop owner friend of my father help me design and build a rail system for building large speaker cabinets for concert use. The key now as it was then is to let distance work for you in setting up your crosscut fence. I'm not knocking your system at all. There are things about it that I like but for what I do most often the Festool system works for me. I mainly use the 1010 router with guide rails for doing 32mm hole drilling. I don't have the space in my garage (or the money) to get a line boring machine.

Dave,
Tell our "nameless" friend to post his problems here and the ez forum.
If you buy a tool that don't work as promised and you don't like to talk about the problems, is very anti-consumer?:confused:

It is possible that something maybe wrong with the tool or the "use" ot the tool. The only way to find out is to talk about it.

So far, we don't have any accuracy problems with the Bridge system.
Feel free to post on our forum and ask the real users of the ez system.

With the square we do have some reported problems from time to time.
And every time we make it better and better without trying to pass the problem to the users.

ADD: With the free upgrade policy that we have ( the only one in the market) we can't effort to
make tools that they don't work as promised.

I will start a thread and you can see for yourself that the ez Bridge system don't have the same problems like other systems.

Thanks.

[Peter Pedisich]

Daniel,

Hi. I understand your frustration with the MFT in regards to squareness.
I have often spent more time than I care to admit squaring, adjusting, and fine tuning, only to get slightly out of square cuts.

But this is a tool designed for job site use, and the design priorities were geared towards a balance of precision, light weight, and versatility.
A variation of the old saying..."Absolute precision, light weight, versatility - pick two".

I get as much precision from my MFT/ATF55 combo as I do from my DeWalt 10" miter saw.

Apart from the squareness issue, the MFT is great, my only wish would be for it to be able to handle 36" cross cuts.

-pete

[Per Swenson]

Lets cut to the heart of the matter.
No long words, no verbosity.

I am a down in the trenches maniac,and house mechanic.
Call Mr Marino and ask him.
I throw tools around the same way some of you of you fellas
toss out the morning paper.
MFT3?
Comes to square?
Yes it does.
Lets remember, that operator error is often a factor in set up.
Square is square, plumb is plumb. and level is level.
I would be happy to argue the math any time.


Per

[Dave Bender]

Dino, there is no problem. The only way you ensure accuracy with these systems is to test before making critical cuts. Once setup the guided systems are pretty good at maintaining accuracy as long as you work within their limitations. There's nothing to bring over to your board and discuss. If you try to make accurate "square" cuts you're better served by measuring the results of actual cuts (i.e. a 5 sided cut to aid alignment) than using small engineering squares and such to do setup with.

[Tom Henderson2]

Methinks Daniel will wake up in the morning with a severe case of the "I wish I hadn't seaid that" disease.

Many of us -- myself included -- know what that feels like. It is easy to get carried away sometimes.

NOW -- firstoff, I don't recall Festool ever saying that the MFT/TS55 combo was a replacement for a cabinet saw. I've read of some USERS that said they no longer need a table saw for THEM, but I can't ever recall were Festool said that.

That seems to be the crux of Daniel's confusion.

Second, about the oversize square -- why not just cut the corner off of a sheet of MDF? Verify the squareness the way you would normally verify the accuracy of a framing square. Can't beat the price and it is nice and thick. And since you may already have MDF scraps laying around, the price is essentially free.

Festool makes great stuff, and it is priced accordingly.

My $0.02

[Daniel Hillmer]

Daniel,[/size]

Enco no longer has that square (again, I have 2, paid $50 something).

Here's that square or one that's a dead ringer.
http://www.ts-aligner.com/accessories.htm

Bob

Thank god thanks so much! I'm buying the 18 inch and eating my words. How in the heck did you find it?

[Daniel Hillmer]

Dino, a friend (who will remain nameless) has your EZ system. Although it is a good system, the bridge as well as the smart square suffer from the same problem as the Festool system when making square cuts. You just don't have the same ability to make fine adjustments as you do with other systems that can spread the adjustment over a longer distance. It's not hard to setup a Festool or EZ system to make very square cuts but you do need to go through the setup each time and check it. I was fortunate in my younger years (back in the 70's) to have a machine shop owner friend of my father help me design and build a rail system for building large speaker cabinets for concert use. The key now as it was then is to let distance work for you in setting up your crosscut fence. I'm not knocking your system at all. There are things about it that I like but for what I do most often the Festool system works for me. I mainly use the 1010 router with guide rails for doing 32mm hole drilling. I don't have the space in my garage (or the money) to get a line boring machine.

I think that's one of the main issues with my festool (can't speak for the EZ because I don't own one never used one). With the festool, it is very hard to make fine adjustments - I don't know what a table saw is like because mine has not arrived yet, but with the festool just the fact that I’m siding lightweight extruded aluminum over particle board, when squaring it up it's hard to move precisely that fence very small distances like 1/100th of an inch. Yes I guess it's possible to get it square, but each and every time you take off the rail, you have to re align the fence and go through the same process. I think if festool made that fence out of tool steel - much heavier, and instead put some kind of precision thumb screw on it to move the fence, that would help. Of course if they did that it would drive the manufacturing cost up.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Daniel,

Hi. I understand your frustration with the MFT in regards to squareness.
I have often spent more time than I care to admit squaring, adjusting, and fine tuning, only to get slightly out of square cuts.

But this is a tool designed for job site use, and the design priorities were geared towards a balance of precision, light weight, and versatility.
A variation of the old saying..."Absolute precision, light weight, versatility - pick two".

I get as much precision from my MFT/ATF55 combo as I do from my DeWalt 10" miter saw.

Apart from the squareness issue, the MFT is great, my only wish would be for it to be able to handle 36" cross cuts.

-pete

Thanks,

I agree with everything you have said - learned this the past two years just from using it. That is the way Festool needs to be marketing this product - "for job site use a system geared toward balance of precision, light weight, and versatility", instead of as a "more precise replacement of a cabinet saw", the way it was sold to me.

I think Festool MFT is an excellent portable job site tool and could possibly beat out the precision of any of the cheaper portable contractor type table saws one sees at home depot or Lowes, etc. if you set it up correctly, but at the present state I don't it beating out the accuracy of a 400 pound cabinet saw with a heavy machined cast iron top and a heavy fence.

At the woodworking show, for some reason I was mesmerized by the slick festool system and wanted it to work – I thought – he here is a product better than a table saw that folds up like a card table, even though a little voice in the back of my head (and my friend) kept telling me to buy the Grizzly.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Methinks Daniel will wake up in the morning with a severe case of the "I wish I hadn't seaid that" disease.

Many of us -- myself included -- know what that feels like. It is easy to get carried away sometimes.


Not really actually my ranting yesterday prompted someone to thoughtfully take the time and post a source for that engineers square - I' don't mind embarrassing myself once and a while if it produces positive results


NOW -- firstoff, I don't recall Festool ever saying that the MFT/TS55 combo was a replacement for a cabinet saw. I've read of some USERS that said they no longer need a table saw for THEM, but I can't ever recall were Festool said that.
I don't think Festool says that officially, however at a woodworking show two years ago, a festool employee told me that the MFT cuts as squarely and as repeat ably as a cabinet saw without long setup times, which is why I bought it.

[Daniel Hillmer]

I think much of the disagreement in this thread could be related to the question – “how square is square.” Square means different things to different people. For some, if you hold a Home Depot orange plastic square up to a corner and eyeball it for a second, and it looks ok then that’s square. For others, they take a bit longer, maybe use a good quality square, and really scrutinize. For myself, I use a Starrett precision 12” combination square accurate to .000001 inches over the 12" length, and if I can put thicker than a .003 or .004 inch thick feeler gauge stock under the low area along a cut edge maybe 12” long, then it’s not square. And I’m even pickier than that but if it meets that squareness I’ll take it, just wish it was better than .004. I'm just really picky though that's a character fault I guess. The wife says I'm obsessive when it comes to my hobby.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Oh, my goodness!:confused: A few points. That is not Festool's Manual, it was writen by Jerry Work for Festool and is more of a "how to get he most out of the MFT" rather than a strict manual, although Festool's basic manuals are to put it nicely, too basic.
As for myself, I use a Woodpecker or Starrett square on my MFT and have never had a problem. And regarding that HUGE square Jerry is using, I bought 2 of them -IIRC, they were about $40.00 each or so. I can try and find out where I bought them a couple years ago.

Bob
OK that clears things up. Festool has that manual on their site - page for the MFT3 and it is listed as if it is a manual published by festool, so it is confusing. A first time visitor would think it's an offical Festool publication, and that Jerry Work is a Festool employee.

His manual by the way is very nicely done.

Another point - I think Festool should provide a direct link on that page to the http://www.ts-aligner.com/accessories.htm site as a source for the type of square that is pictured in that (non) festool published MFT3 manual.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Not really actually my ranting yesterday prompted someone to thoughtfully take the time and post a source for that engineers square - I' don't mind embarrassing myself once and a while if it produces positive results


Daniel - I answered that same question in your other MFT thread about a week ago:


Daniel - I use a square I bought from Enco (638-7628), but the Enco web site says that item has been discontinued.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=638-7628&PMPXNO=949950&PARTPG=INLMK3

You could call Enco and see if they have a new number for that type of square.

TS Aligner, Jr sells the same square that Enco used to sell, but for a much higher price tag. Look here and scroll down to the squares. The 8X18 square is $157.62 - Enco used to sell it for $53.78. I know it's the same manufacturer because I have a smaller square from TS Aligner and the big one fro Enco - identical.


You can make a large, thick, accurate square from a piece of MDF using the 3-4-5 method. You can make it as thick as needed, and it would be fine for shop use. Might be a bit awkward hauling it to a job site though.
...

Bob's information and mine appear to be in synch.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Daniel,
Congrats on the table saw, good deal...
Sounds like you need some nice layout tools, check these out:

http://www.woodpeck.com/measuringhome.html

I love the 18" carpenters square, and the pro-t rules with the .05 mm holes make layout a breeze with high toleances.

Jason

I have had for several months now a set of the Pinnacle precision triangles from Woodcraft:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=20043&refcode=05INFROO

which are made by Woodpeckers - they are the same tool. They are good quality however the larger of the two I have is only a 6”, and I think the large engineers square (link shown earlier in thread) would be much better – quicker to align the Festool fence to the rail, just slap it in there and by virtue of it’s size and weight I think it would be quicker to align. Although much more expensive I think it would save a lot of time and aggravation in the long run.

[Peter Quadarella]

I think a tablesaw would be hard to keep in good precision if your threw it in your car and in the closet and took it out and set it up every time you used it.

I leave my bridge and rail in one place, and never take it apart. It is built on top of a cabinet with drawers and doors which I use for storage. Since my bridge and rails never move (except up and down to let the wood in and out), once they are set to square, they never change. There is no left/right play since it is securely attached on both sides of the cabinet with tight bolts.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Daniel,
Congrats on the table saw, good deal...
Sounds like you need some nice layout tools, check these out:

http://www.woodpeck.com/measuringhome.html

I love the 18" carpenters square, and the pro-t rules with the .05 mm holes make layout a breeze with high toleances.

Jason

I have had for several months now a set of the Pinnacle precision triangles from Woodcraft:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=20043&refcode=05INFROO

which are made by Woodpeckers - they are the same tool. They are good quality however the larger of the two I have is only a 6”, and I think the large engineers square (link shown earlier in thread) would be much better – quicker to align the Festool fence to the rail, just slap it in there and by virtue of it’s size and weight I think it would be quicker to align. Although much more expensive I think it would save a lot of time and aggravation in the long run.

With the Pinnacle although it's good for many tasks, I have never felt it was the right tool to align the fence to the rail since the rail and fence are much longer than the 6" triangle.

The other issue with aligning the fence to the rail, is that in order to do this even with a thick square or triangle, the only way to do it, is to loosen the fence, slide it down and out from under the rail, and tighten it up when it's below the rail - not under the rail. Because of the height differential caused by the fence raising up the rail and a square not being able to reach high enough to meet the back edge of rail. So, once the fence is moved out from under the rail, and squared, if you are cutting anything narrower or not much wider than the rail, you really should be sliding the fence under the rail to hold the narrow stock square, and if you do this, you have to move the fence after it is squared which can throw it off. So it kind of limits the width of the material you are cutting to the width of the rail, that is, if you don't want to loosen up the fence from the miter gauge and slide it under the rail which can easily throw off your squareness setting.

The only other alternative if you wish to cut perfectly squared material that are close to or slightly narrower than the rail, would be to find a precision square thicker than the fence so that the square will reach the back edge of rail (and you can't really cut narrow rails and stiles with the Festool the rail won't hold them firmly in place even if the fence is perfectly squared to it - and by the way the Festool employee at the woodworking show told me I could cut narrow rails and stiles on the MFT no problem - which is NOT true), and I don't think there exists a engineers square that thick. Because in the manual on the festool site, it clearly shows the engineers square aligning the fence when the fence is below the rail and not under it - the rail is resting flatly on the surface of the table and not on top of the fence. Another alternative would be to cut a perfectly square piece of thick plywood to meet the height of the rail, but in order to do that you need access to either a finely tuned table saw or another squared festool MFT.

Which is why I feel that Festool should be including in their official manual either the five cut method or the method that John Stevens described earlier in this thread, to square up the festool. I think those two methods, or the third of using this huge and expensive engineers square are the only three methods that should be used to square up the MFT tables. It either takes a long time to square up the MFT3 with the first two methods, each and every time the rail - fence are taken off the table if needed to multitask with different jobs, or it is expensive as in the third – and festool should acknowledge the above in their publications and at trade shows and provide documentation as to such, be truthful with customers, if they are going to market this regularly at woodworking shows as a table saw replacement.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Thanks,



I think rail systems are an excellent portable job site tool and could possibly beat out the precision of any of the cheaper portable contractor type table saws one sees at home depot or Lowes, etc. if you set it up correctly, but at the present state I don't see any of them beating out the accuracy of a 400 pound cabinet saw with a heavy machined cast iron top and a heavy fence.

At the woodworking show, for some reason I was mesmerized by the slick festool system and wanted it to work – I thought – he here is a product better than a table saw that folds up like a card table, even though a little voice in the back of my head (and my friend) kept telling me to buy the Grizzly.

Daniel,
When you say "Rail systems" you're including different tools.
Others may think that The PBB is the same as the MFT and this is simply wrong and misleading.
I asked the ez user and here what I got:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=950461#post950461


I am a DIY garage warrior,

My Power Bridge Bench is the most accurate cutting tool I have ever used. "Surgical" precision is the best term to describle the PBB.

I made a plywood torsion box style table top, 50" x 25". I added 3 SME and 3/4 MDF as sacrificial top. Add banquet folding legs to the bottom.

It take 10 minutes to convert my garage into a shop with table, bridge, and dust collection.

Since the wood never moves after its positioned for cutting the cut is always perfect.

What did this cost:

65 inch rail $ 90
B-200 bridge $ 190
SME 's $ 70
Connector's $ 20
Plywood $ 30
Banquet legs $ 20

The ability to cut chip fee perfectly straight lines with complet control and safety - "PRICELESS"


I posted this a few days ago:

PBB Repeatability (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=94509)

...plus I used these with these 56 drawer box sides that were all cut on my PBB:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Steph%20Bedroom/th_IMG_2421.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Steph%20Bedroom/?action=view&current=IMG_2421.jpg)


...cut dovetails on my Incra Positioner and assembled these 14 drawers:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Steph%20Bedroom/th_IMG_2447.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Steph%20Bedroom/?action=view&current=IMG_2447.jpg)

If anyone has used the Incra system you know how critical it is to have consistent dimensions to create tight DT's. After assembling the drawer boxes I bumped the corners to get all the diagonals within 1/32" of each other.

Few things I have learned here is to make sure you start with a clean cut straight edge an use it as the reference point for your next cut and it's worth the time/effort to make sure the rail is square to the stop fence and parallel to the rip fence.

Mike


PBB Accuracy - Great. When I've had problems with accuracy is has usually been user error. The latest that I remember was a couple of weeks ago I was hooking up a 8' bridge and noticed the cuts were crooked. I had been in a hurry and didn't leave any space between the two rails when I put the connector on. I separated the rails - according to instructions - and everything worked like a charm.


Burt

Thanks.

[Daniel Hillmer]

I think a tablesaw would be hard to keep in good precision if your threw it in your car and in the closet and took it out and set it up every time you used it.

I agree, and Festool should be telling this to their customers at woodworking shows too.


I leave my bridge and rail in one place, and never take it apart. It is built on top of a cabinet with drawers and doors which I use for storage. Since my bridge and rails never move (except up and down to let the wood in and out), once they are set to square, they never change. There is no left/right play since it is securely attached on both sides of the cabinet with tight bolts.
I also agree, and this being the case, it kind of negates the MFT system as a portable table saw replacement does'nt it?

Which is the way it has been marketed at two woodworking shows I have seen it in - so far.

That being the case, if you never plan on moving the Festool, and your only need is a table saw, then buy a table saw or a cabinet saw, because even a good cabinet saw is cheaper than the MFT 3 plus the 55 saw. 755 bucks for the (discounted) Grizzly 1023SL or $995.00 for the MFT plus 55 saw package.

[Chris Padilla]

Move the product through the tool or move the tool through the product: you're doing one or the other in woodworking. One is often easier/safer or can provide better results than the other.

[Peter Quadarella]

Daniel, we are in complete agreement. A portable system will never remain in as tight alignment as a stationary one.

In my case, I did not want a portable system, but I also did not want a tablesaw. While the EZ system can be portable, it can also be setup to be stationary which is why I went that route.

I think some of the debate comes about because there are different rail products around and it is difficult to make general statements about rail systems in general, just like it's difficult to make general statements about all tablesaws (or any type of tool).

[Mark Roderick]

First I'll admit that I don't own a Festool - or an EZ system for that matter. When I want to cut sheet goods, I just use my circular saw and a long straight edge made from 1/8 inch plywood glued to MDF.

With that said, I'm always surprised when I read this kind of thread. If a system like the Festool can't make quick, repeatable, perfectly square cuts on sheet goods, why in the world would anyone buy one? I would think making those cuts would be the most basic thing anyone would use it for.

[Daniel Hillmer]

First I'll admit that I don't own a Festool - or an EZ system for that matter. When I want to cut sheet goods, I just use my circular saw and a long straight edge made from 1/8 inch plywood glued to MDF.

With that said, I'm always surprised when I read this kind of thread. If a system like the Festool can't make quick, repeatable, perfectly square cuts on sheet goods, why in the world would anyone buy one? I would think making those cuts would be the most basic thing anyone would use it for.

I think it’s possible to cut quick, repeatable, square sheets of plywood on a rail. The issue is, can this be done, and then can one tear down the rail and fence, use the table for something else, as in the multifunction table, and then later set it back up again quickly and easily to that same accuracy - squareness you originally had before? And from my experience in using the festool in my garage for about two years now, for me personally (I can't speak for others here), it takes me a long time to set it back up again to where I am satisfied with the results. It's more of a time factor than anything else - at least for me anyway - others here disagree. Sometimes I am satisfied with the way I set it up and others not. Depends on how much time I have and how much time I want to put into it (and my frustration tolerance for any particular day).

I think it’s like comparing a Shop Smith to a Table saw, a drill press and a lathe. The shop smith can do all three, but if you have three separate machines, setup time is a lot quicker for those three operations because you don’t have to spend a lot of time converting your machine to a different operation, setting up and squaring it up over and over again, as you would have to do with a shop smith.

A close friend of mine bought a shop smith many years ago, he really liked it - the one thing he always told me, with the shop smith he had to plan out his work flow carefully to save time. With separate machines you can just "do your stuff".

The other issue, setting up the rail square, is another problem, it can be done but sometimes it’s a pain to do it for the reasons discussed earlier in this thread. From my experience anyway.

And there is one last issue I don't think I brought up, for jointing operations – a final cut after running parts through a planar and jointer - especially if you are cutting hardwoods or making rails and stiles for cabinets, I think it's easier, or more precise, to set up a table saw blade perpendicular to a cast iron table, than it is to set up a circular saw blade perpendicular to the base of a circular saw, no matter how good the circ saw is. Just my opinion, Because how can one compare, a hundred pound plus cast iron trunion holding the arbor of a saw blade under a 200 pound cast iron table with big huge heavy adjustment wheels - screws, to a lightweight circular saw base thumb screw or set screw and allen wrench adjustment? There is absolutely no comparison IMHO and yes, you can get a perfectly clean cut line with a rail and high quality blade, but to get that edge square to the face of the material to within a couple of thousand inches without that blade angle drifting, I don’t think there is any comparison between the two. A much as I would like my festool to consistently equal that (which I thought it would do when I bought it), wishing it will not make it so.

If you have small space, need a table saw, a sanding and a clamping table and a panel saw all in one, that is portable, and you are willing to spend extra time between set ups, I find that the the rail guide setup is a great system. After a while though it gets annoying (to me - maybe I have less patience than the average bear). I will still be using my Festool MFT for lots of things, yet from now on I will be using the table saw for most of my sawing and will be spending less time setting up the mft table since I will no longer be doing table saw type stuff on the rail system (unless I need to use the rail to rough cut plywood for the final cuts on the table saw - but I won't be using the rail and fence setup any longer). So to me anyway it was well worth cleaning out the other half of the garage to make room for the table saw. For me, it's a lot more fun spending most of my time working with wood than it is setting up tools all the time.

One thing to note, if you plan on cutting rails and stiles for cabinet making with the 55 Festool saw, you can't use the rail for that, you will need the Parallel Guide (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/products/plunge-cut-circular-saws/stops-and-accessories/parallel-guide-491469.html) for the saw, and a jointer and planer to get good, consistent results.

One thing I would be very curious to know, is if the shop in which Jerry Work created his Festool manual in, does that shop have a table saw in it? Anyone know? Or is that shop all completely festool, no table saw?

[Daniel Hillmer]

Daniel - I answered that same question in your other MFT thread about a week ago:

Bob's information and mine appear to be in synch.

Oh god, why didn't I see (or remember) it? You posted a link to where I could buy that engineers square?

Update...

Oh I see it it's at http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=93994&page=2 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=93994&page=2sorry)

Sorry Dave.

I guess I did not see it because there was no link and I never ran a google search for the ts aligner - I think the only thing that stuck in my head was when you said that other company does not make it any more.

[Daniel Hillmer]

The title of this thread drifted way off topic – probably mostly my fault.

What I really wanted to know, is - does anyone reading this own BOTH the MFT 1080, AND the MFT3?

And if so, do you find a difference between the two in making repeatable square cuts? Is it easier, and faster to re square the MFT3, after tearing down the fence and rail, and then setting it back up again?

That’s mainly what I wanted to know before the subject drifted away from me so quickly…

[John Stevens]

As a sidebar, the biggest reason why I am frustrated about this situation, is in the festool on line manual for the MFT, it shows the method of squaring the fence to the rail (and also retro fitting the MFT table) by using a large, thick engineers square. I searched for “engineers square” and also “engineering square” of this size via google shopping, and no one sells one like it. No one. The only squares I can find, are the el cheapo small sized squares six inches long max, no where thick enough to reach the rail back edge, totally in adequate for the task, and NOTHING like the one pictured on the Festoolusa.com web site.

Hi, Dan. I definitely sympathize with what you say. I'll probably get myself into some hot water by saying this, but I'll say it anyway. The manual you link to is written by Jerry Work, a very accomplished furniture designer/builder. Jerry has spent countless hours contributing his hard-earned knowledge at the Festool Owners' Group. Many times he has shared info that could legitimately be considered a trade secret, and he has done so for free. I personally have benefitted tremendously from his advice. Nobody can question his generosity, integrity or the goodness of his intentions. That said, I believe the manuals have some drawbacks.

I bought much of my Festool equipment before Jerry started writing "manuals" for the company. I put the word manuals in quotation marks, because it's plain that they are only partially intended to instruct. They are also partially intended to sell. Before Festool started using Jerry's manuals, the company's advertisements were distinct from its instructions, which were often inadequate. As a result, it was easy for readers to distinguish claims of fact from, well, advertising...but it was all too often difficult to figure out how to really exploit the usefulness of the tools by reading the company's manuals. Nevertheless, on balance I found that the tools always exceeded the expectations that were created by the company's advertisements.

Then came Jerry's manuals. They do an outstanding job of providing important information on how to use the tools, information that should have been included in Festool's user manuals, but wasn't. Unfortunately, in my opinion as a user of many Festool tools, and one who has read all of Jerry's manuals and benefitted greatly from them, they sometimes are overly optimistic in their portrayal of the usefulness and ease of use of the tools. Case in point--in regard to your specific criticism of Jerry's MFT manual, I'd agree that the part about using the big, thick square to align the MFT should not have been included in the manual, although my reason is different from yours.

I bought one of those squares from ENCO at Jerry's recommendation. It's impressively accurate, but I have found it's not accurate enough for my needs, e.g. cutting 18" long mitered cabinet sides. Jerry has stated on the FOG that he seldom uses the MFT for cutting because he owns a Minimax sliding table saw. From what he's written, I gather that he uses the MFT for routing operations, usually cutting the slots for sliding dovetail joints. The manual states that when using the MFT to rout mirror-image dovetail slots in carcases, "the piece squares itself in all directions. Any slight errors you might have introduced will usually cancel each other out." Nope. If you check the geometry of such an operation, you'll see that any error will not cancel, but will double. This will will also be true of cutting operations using Jerry's "mirroring" method. So while the beauty of the furniture Jerry produces is apparent from the photos in his manual, the "self squaring" of the pieces is attributable to some other reason than the one he ascribes it to, because in regard to squaring error, the Festool system does not work the way he says it does. (Having used the Festool system to make a night table with sliding dovetail joints, my theory is that misalignment due to "slight errors" [Jerry's words] in milling operations is "washed out" by the necessary play that must be left in the sliding DTs, and therefore the rectangular structural elements such as web frames and back frames are sufficient to bring the piece into sufficient alignment such that the errors aren't apparent to the eye.)

Bottom line: Jerry's manuals have a lot of positive value, but they also have a tendency to foster unreasonable expectations about ease and accuracy in use of the tools, as your story shows. I suppose that consumers should always read statements from manufacturers with some degree of skepticism, but it pains me to say that Festool is no longer an exception to this rule now that it has adopted Jerry's manuals, as good as they are on the whole.

Regards,

John

[Daniel Hillmer]

Case in point--in regard to your specific criticism of Jerry's MFT manual, I'd agree that the part about using the big, thick square to align the MFT should not have been included in the manual, although my reason is different from yours.



Extremely great insights and info thanks very much.

Just to be clear on your above, I did not mean at all to criticize Jerry's manual, I thought it was created by Festool and really had no idea when I first read it that he was in independent wooodworker, and I also said earlier that it was a wonderful manual. I think I also said not that the square should not have been shown in the manual, just that if they are going to show it, they should indicate in the manual where one can buy it.