Polyester Impregnated Kraft Paper

[Robert Ray]

Does anyone know anything about such a material? I seen photos of fine vector cut and raster engraved details, and instead of the normal 1/64" micro-thin plywood used for model railroad kit construction, this material was used with claims that is it harder, cuts cleaner, and resists warping when painting.

I have googled variations to death but only seem to find references to patent applications.

Anyone?

[Joe Pelonio]

That sounds like what's on MDO, Medium Density Overlay plywood.

I have never heard of it being sold with just the paper and have never seen it less than 1/2" thick.

[Mike Null]

You might have a look at oil board which I have used as you have described.

http://www.customcutstencilco.com/machine.htm

[Mark Winlund]

I have also looked for this type of material. The closest I could come was melamine sheets used in the electrical industry for insulation... also known as phenolic. It comes reinforced with various types of fibers, including cotton. I was able to find references to this material as thin as .020", but was never able to get samples or a quote. Unless you are buying a railroad car load, manufacturers just are not interested.

My application was as a backing on thin veneers.

By the way the source for thin veneers is Lenderink...

http://www.lenderink.com/

Mark

Mark

[Dave Johnson29]

in the electrical industry for insulation... also known as phenolic. It comes reinforced with various types of fibers


Hi Mark and Robert,

I have some phenolic sheets here somewhere that I bought surplus years back. Not sure of the filler material, probably cotton as that is the most common for electrical use.

From memory, thicknesses 1/32", 1/16", 1/8" and 1/4" in 12" x 12" squares. I am not sure if you can cut it with a laser but it does machine nicely. There may even be thicker stuff, it was a long time back.

Let me know what thickness and how many and I will see what I have. Email or PM if you like.

[Guy Hilliard]

Or you could always make your own.
Kraft paper is cheap enough as is polyester resin.

[Margaret Turco]

There is a Mil Spec material like this available at Edco Supply in Brooklyn http://www.edcosupply.com/index.htm I used to talk to Brian there. They make bags to order so I don't know what the minimum would be for roll stock, but they might have some drops available.

[Richard Rumancik]

I have not heard of polyester resin- Kraft paper, but it sounds like something that would be used for electrical insulation. I suspect that the polyester resin/paper would be a thermoset so I would expect some charring with both cutting and marking. This might not be a problem for your application if it is painted.

Maybe you should consider glass/epoxy sheet (try FR4 or G10 grades.) This is normally used in the circuit board industry and as electrical insulators. You would want FR4 without copper.

I have cut 1/32" FR4 without problems (except for the charring). I expect .015" would cut fine. It is flat and very stiff, it will not warp when painted, and is generally is a very stable material. You would have to test it to see if it cuts fast enough for your application. As far as engraving FR4, I don't know what the quality would be like as I have not tried engraving it. You might have to micro-blast after engraving to remove the char.

You can get .015" FR4 here:

http://www.eplastics.com/Plastic/G10_FR4_Glass_Epoxy_Sheet/G10NAT0-016X12X48

This place sells .005, .010, and .015"

http://www.electricalinsulationmaterial.com/g10-fr4.html

There are minimum orders but it's not that unreasonable.

If you search on FR4 sheet you will likely find other suppliers.

[Robert Ray]

I have found out a little more. it is called "Laser Board" and is available from Northeastern Scale Lumber.

From the photos I seen, it is a light Kraft color, .015" thick, raster engraves very clean without any charing, and vector cuts real clean. It takes paint well, yet is water resistant.

I am trying to obtain a sample to try.

-Robert Ray

[David Fairfield]

Thanks Robert!! I've seen it too and was wondering the same thing! The stuff is smooth, thin, strong and flexible. Perfect for miniature model work. The only problem was where to buy it. :)

Dave

[Mark Winlund]

I have found out a little more. it is called "Laser Board" and is available from Northeastern Scale Lumber.

From the photos I seen, it is a light Kraft color, .015" thick, raster engraves very clean without any charing, and vector cuts real clean. It takes paint well, yet is water resistant.

I am trying to obtain a sample to try.

-Robert Ray

This web site no longer exists... does anyone know who makes it?

Mark

[Robert Ray]

I was told it is a "Manufacturers Only" item available from http://northeasternscalelumber.com

This is what was replied when I asked about it:

It's a polyester impregnated Kraft liner paper. Being Impregnated water does not effect it. Has a tensile strength of 12,000psi, can be ripped but I have cut wood rafters for a kit that broke just butting them in place were the laser board ones did not and went in much better . It also has a constant thickness the wood plywood.


It's called Laser board and was designed for laser cutting, it is hard on hobby knifes that's for sure but does cut clean. Northeastern scale lumber has it but it's a Manufacturer only idem. It does take paint well.
As for the product it is 1/64 Th inch thick or .015 and comes in 12 x 24 inch sheets.

The gentleman who posted above is sending me 10 sheets to play with, and he said it cost about $3 a sheet. I am planing on using it for Z Scale model railroad uses.

-Robert

[Phil Brevick]

Not sure if this is what you need? They have something like what you're describing at Dick Blick...

http://www.dickblick.com/zz289/31/


Phil

[Robert Ray]

I read the MSDS for the Oil Board, and it's Naptha and Vegetable Oil saturated Kraft Paper. That is a different product, probably perfect for making laser cut stencils, but probably won't take paint too well.

I regularly cut clear polyester sheet to use as window material for my kits, and it is the best cutting plastic I have found. Much better cleaner cutting than acrylic, as it does not leave a sticky residue. Mylar is Polyester.

Having a blend of wood and polyester should yield the best of both worlds (wood and plastic) as far as laser kits are concerned. I just have to test it and see for myself.

-Robert

[Mark Winlund]

I finally got in contact with the supplier of the resin-paper, and ordered enough to experiment with. Here is the address:

Korin, at:
Northeastern Scale Lumber Co., Inc99 Cross St Methuen, MA 800 343 2094 Office978 794 9104 FaxPrecision Scale LumberI will report on how well it works.Mark

[David Fairfield]

I got my sample, this stuff kicks ass! It cuts like cardstock, but its firm, almost like sheet brass.

Dave

[David Fairfield]

Here's a test shot, the steps are perforated, no charring or weakening of the materials around the cuts. Its pretty darn close to photo etched brass. Nice stuff!!! :cool:

[Kim Vellore]

Dave,
That looks awesome is it the oil board from Dickblick?
Kim

[Robert Ray]

Wow David! That stuff does look like the holy grail for model railroad laser cutters. I got to get some quick!

-Robert

[David Fairfield]

Lazerboard, get some!!!! :cool:

[Neal Schlee]

Thanks Robert!! I've seen it too and was wondering the same thing! The stuff is smooth, thin, strong and flexible. Perfect for miniature model work. The only problem was where to buy it. :)

Dave

McMaster Sells it in many thicknesses and sheet sizes.
www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com) Search for: Garolite (XX Paper Grade)

Neal Schlee
Lasertech Alaska

[Ben Levesque]

Hey David!

how did you manage to purchase some of this laser board?
Did you got it from northeasternscalelumber?

Thanks

Ben

[David Fairfield]

Hi Ben

For some reason, Northeastern restricts the sale of this stuff to manufacturers and does not list it on their website. So you have to call them and talk it over.

They say there is a $1,000 initial minimum order but after I tested the sample, I called them back we agreed to a $300 order. The sheets are packaged in batches of 50 sheets, 12" x 24" @ $3 a sheet.

Since I'm not using huge quantities, the price is OK but I suspect there's a much cheaper source for this stuff. Maybe the stuff McMaster has is the same material, I wasn't able to find it when I took a quick look at Neals link. Let's look around and report back :)

Dave

[Ben Levesque]

Thanks David for the information.

Understood, you need to call them and negotiate, I'll do my best to find another source and post the results here if any.

But Neal seems to be on the target for the name of the product. Garolite (http://www.professionalplastics.com/Phenolic)

Ben

[Richard Rumancik]

I think I'm starting to get this figured out . . . . Garolite is one brand of what is generically called XX grade paper/phenolic, also known as paper reinforced phenolic. Another popular brand is Micarta.

Way back at the beginning of this thread, I suggested using G10/FR4. G10 is a fiberglass reinforced epoxy; obviously it will be more expensive than XX paper reinforced phenolic. But for small parts I still think that some users may find G10 to be a suitable material and the extra cost may not matter much. G10/FR4 has higher stiffness and strength than XX. (FR4 is similar to G10 but it is a fire-retardant grade so you can expect it to char a bit more since it is designed to resist burning.)

I think the XX FR4 and G10 designations are all NEMA classifications. (There are many more.)

Look here for a comparison
http://phenolic-sheets-rods-tubes.com/ (http://phenolic-sheets-rods-tubes.com/)

If you are looking to source options to Garolite you might search using terms: XX paper phenolic

Actually the price of $3.00 for a 12" x 24" x .015" piece does not sound that unreasonable to me. (The large minimum quantities are more of a problem.)

You might see XX board used as a circuit board or wiring board material in toys and battery operated electronics products (where UL, CSA or CE approvals are not required.)

[Robert Ray]

A friend of mine just got a sample of the stuff, and he also asked for an MSDS.

The photocopy MSDS he got looked like the original manufacturers name was covered with a sheet with Northeasterns name, but there is an original manufacturers logo on those sheets that we could not identify.

What we were able to find out is that stuff is what I was calling a "Holy Grail" product a few years ago when I was hoping someone would produce it.

It is 70-90% cellulose powder and 10-30% polyureathane. It's not phenolic, flame retardant PC board material, or oil saturated kraft paper.
Relatively non toxic, and has just the properties I need. My friend said it glues with white glue, takes paint very well, and is very stiff, rasters 3d real nice and smooth, and it don't bend, rather breaks.


I am still patiently waiting on samples, but I stayed on squak box for over an hour walking my friend through all the tests I wanted to do with the stuff.

-Robert

[David Fairfield]

Try soaking it in water before bending it. Worked for me! :)

Dave

[Ben Levesque]

Thanks Robert for the info, polyurethane is way better than phenolic regarding skin irritant and all. Can you scan the logo? Maybe we can identify it from what's on the web.


Ben

[Mark Winlund]

Got my laserboard today. It is definitely not phenolic. Much softer and more bendable. Very light in color. I will run a few tests. I suspect for my purposes, the glass free circuit board material will be more appropriate for me.

Mark

[David Fairfield]

I changed over some of my drawings to take advantage of the strength of this stuff. It can go really fine, but the really narrow pieces are slightly brittle. Unlike photo-etched brass, I can push a pencil through this part with little effort. However, its still flexible and strong enough to withstand normal handling during construction.

Dave

PS @Kim, I sent you a dozen sheets of Lazerboard yesterday, priority mail, should be there shortly

[Robert Ray]

Yesterday I got a small sample 4" x 6" of the material, and I took it out to the backyard in direct sunlight, and it hit me.

I had done some experiments a few years ago with different papers, cardstocks, and parchments, and the results were very similar, but I used marine spar varnish then.

This stuff bends and breaks as though it was made out of...

#170 to #200 Lb bond "Index" or "Cover" paper, saturated with Flecto Varathane, then dried to form this hard polymerized material.

As it costs from Northeastern ,compared to making my own, the Northeastern material seems economical enough, because Index and Cover is fairly expensive paper.

-Robert

[Ben Levesque]

Does it breaks like in this video at frame 2:32 ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQjXvUgsEV4

Ben

[Kim Vellore]

I am thinking if it has paper or cellulose material in it, it is not dense enough to raster details. Has anyone rastered details to see how it turns up.
I am waiting for mine to show up, thanks Davie.

Kim

[David Fairfield]

No, its not that brittle, it behaves more like cardboard when its bent. The smooth outer layer tears but the interior layers stay together.

In my limited test, dunking it in water lets it bend 180 degrees without the outer layer tearing apart.

The non colored material in the beginning of the segment does look a lot like this stuff. If thats the same material, it might be dirt cheap as off cuts.

Dave

[David Fairfield]

Hi Kim

Yes, it rasters fine! I only made some small markings (1/87 grave stones :p) haven't tried rastering a large surface yet.

Dave

[Ben Levesque]

1. Anyone wants to show their rastered results with this material? Even small details would do.

2. I've received my one sheet sample from Northeastern, but it is badly scratched on one side, like strait knife marks, pretty deep too. there is one scratch at each 1mm of distance. Is it being sold like this?

Ben

[David Fairfield]

Hi Ben

Yup its all scratched on the one side of all of mine, looks like its from rollers in the mfg process. Most of my parts are one sided so its not an issue for me.

Dave

[Ben Levesque]

Thanks David for the information

Ben

[Ben Levesque]

Case closed!

Ben

[Darryl Jacobs]

Well here we are a year later!!

Has anyone found additional sources for the "lazerboard" type materials?

I am still using 1/64th Plywood, but would love to find a better material that accepts paint a bit better and does not curl as much.

Any new ideas out there, and how is the Lazerboard material holding up for everyone?

Darryl

[Mike Null]

Did you try oilboard?

http://www.dickblick.com/products/oil-board/

[Ben Levesque]

Hi Darryl
It is called Polybak in real life, I don't know who first started to call it lazerboard, but North eastern scalelumber was selling it at a %500 markup :mad:

Here's the source for it Polybak (http://www.polybak.com/techpolybak.html) the site will give you links to were to buy it, I've converted all my kits into the stuff, at the scale I am working with, it is more forgiving with people that have bigger fingers :D

Ben

[Darryl Jacobs]

Thanks a lot Ben. I was sure that it must have been an industrial material of some sort.

I am looking at ths same issues as you with very small parts for models and such.

Cheers!

Darryl

[Darryl Jacobs]

Did you try oilboard?

http://www.dickblick.com/products/oil-board/

Hi Mike, sorry I missed you message. I have not tried oilboard, but if I remember, this is a much coarser fibre substrate.

I have found the material that Ben mentions, though I can only find the 0.020 material. The thinner 0.011 would be great to try.

I will report some samples back when I get to testing it.

Cheers!

Darryl

[Ben Levesque]

I tried all their available thickness, and they work really great.
Corrugated roof (3D pattern & Painted green) & and floor (planks pattern engraved): = 0.010" thick
Wall and posts: = 0.015" Thick (Beige)
Underframe roof (Star frame) : = 0.023" Thick

Gazebo is Scale: 1/220 meaning 1-1/8" in diameter.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pRIhKr3K7cM/TOXoQjxqNTI/AAAAAAAAAJ0/eMsVwRSERUg/s912/Image66.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_pRIhKr3K7cM/TOSefa0U7UI/AAAAAAAAAJQ/Pnd816PWcxs/s800/Image14.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_pRIhKr3K7cM/TOXoPhGb3hI/AAAAAAAAAJs/ZMoLvMvDk5U/s800/Image26.jpg

Ben

[David Fairfield]

How did you get it? Did you have to buy a big sheet from a distributor and pick it up yourself?

Dave

[Ben Levesque]

How did you get it? Did you have to buy a big sheet from a distributor and pick it up yourself?

Dave
That is exactly what I did, :D
Ben

[Darryl Jacobs]

How did you get it? Did you have to buy a big sheet from a distributor and pick it up yourself?

Dave

Hi Dave, I picked mine up at a local distributor. I got the .020 stuff and it was $9.00 per 4' by 8' sheet!! So I bought a few :D

Darryl

[Brian Fiore]

That is exactly what I did, :D
Ben

Awesome models Ben.

What does the stuff cost approximately?

Also, what power and speed settings (for raster and vector) are you are using on it for a given thickness?

Thanks

[Kim Vellore]

Did you try oilboard?

http://www.dickblick.com/products/oil-board/


I have tried oilboard and the results are not good compared to Polybak or lazerboard and the oilboard also oozes oil around the places you cut and makes it sticky, so if you raster it is messy and cant paint. Good for vector cutting large cuts.

Kim

[Chris Tatarian]

Yes, I 10-4 that.

[Mike Null]

In case you didn't check the entire thread I'll post my source again as I have not experienced the problem you're having.

http://www.customcutstencilco.com/machine.htm

[Bill Cunningham]

On the subject of things that are made small..
He doesn't use a laser, but check out this.. It's Amazing (http://www.maniacworld.com/art-in-the-eye-of-a-needle.html)

[Michael Henriksen]

370333

Look what turned up at our house today - almost 600kg of Polybak :)

[John Blazy]

Nice thread - very interesting evolution. I make pickguards from my dichroic laminate below, and often need a laserable backing to stiffen it up, so I just glue kraft paper to the back with epoxy, which soaks through the paper and impregs it well. I clamp it all up with release liner plastic, which ends up being the masking to eliminate soot off the back. I don't like Micarta or other common phenolic impregs as the laser has a real hard time cutting through the phenolic resin in the paper (called 060" brown backer through cabinet plywood suppliers). A true polyester impreg paper would laser much better, as I have made my own PE soaked paper, and it cuts well like my epoxy soaked paper. I assume thats what Polybak is.

Nice score of a lifetime supply.
370334

[Michael Henriksen]

Polybak is indeed polyester resin impregnated kraft paper. It is an industrial backer. I've bought 1000 sheets, partially for my own use, partially to sell in smaller sheets to hobby users who don't fancy meeting the 500 sheet MOQ per thickness. I love how it cuts and it's much cheaper than similar thickness plywood.

[Michael Henriksen]

Video of the cutting of a small house I drew to test the material.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuN-fd5Gjts

[John Blazy]

Fun!! Nice pinboard too. I made mine with a nail gun. Had to cut slots between the rows of nails for air draft, but my small parts always get sucked down into the Abyss, so the slots aren't the greatest idea. It appears you have mesh - good idea.

[Ben Levesque]

Nice ! What was your distribution contact ? In the U.S.?
And how many type of Polybak had you ordered? Between those types: PGB black, PB42, PB69, PB67, PB90,
Did you ever tried the Polybak Ultra at 0.035" thick?

Me, I have so much PB67, that I won't be ordering this type anytime soon.

[Mike Null]

You can find this material plus many veneer options at this site: http://www.holdahlcompany.com/laminate-and-surfacing-products/veneer/polyback

[Michael Henriksen]

I stock PB90 (0.024") and PB Ultra (0.035"). Purchased from Lenderink which is the distributor. There is a 500 sheet MOQ which is probably why it's not readily available on the hobby market. I sell a variety of materials in sheet sizes to suit various laser machine sizes.

[Michael Henriksen]

Fun!! Nice pinboard too. I made mine with a nail gun. Had to cut slots between the rows of nails for air draft, but my small parts always get sucked down into the Abyss, so the slots aren't the greatest idea. It appears you have mesh - good idea.

Normally I make a small line break on the circumference to retain the parts. I just forgot to to that on some of the parts :)

If I cut a lot of the same part then I often make dedicated nail beds so the laser beam will never hit an nail thus avoiding any reflection marks on the underside of the material being cut.

[Ben Levesque]

Hi Michael,
Do you have any testing done with the PB Ultra (0.035") ? How does it react? Is it hard to uncurl it ?
Thanks.

[Michael Henriksen]

I just store it weighed down. That flattens it. You can also heat in the oven at 140C weighed down between a couple of sheets of glass then let it cool. It can be thermoset.

[Ben Levesque]

ok, thanks