Old antiques, good buy or poor buy on these chisels?

[richard poitras]

I have a chanse to buy these chisels what are you thoughts? good buy, poor buy, decent buy, or pass? Any comments or insite wood help...

The coments under each chisel are from the seller...
http://circabellum.com/sitebuilder/images/mceighth-600x242.jpg

decent 1/8" pig sticker mortise chisel. Overall length is 9" with blade at 4.5". There is a gap between the bolster
and the wood, but the handle is tight and does not move whatsoever. Some pitting and file marks in upper part of
blade, but is sharp, flat and ready to go, with no pitting near the end. Scarce size. $25

http://circabellum.com/sitebuilder/images/mcquarternew-600x355.jpg
This is a nice English quarter inch pig sticker. Great, long handle, overall length is 11.5" with the blade at 4.5". Light
mark of "Cast Steel" on the blade A lot of dark pitting at the top of blade, but it cleans up smooth and is sharp and
ready to go on the last inch or so of the blade. Lots of life and use left in this one. At 1/4", it's nearly the perfect size
for most projects. $25

http://circabellum.com/sitebuilder/images/mcquarterold-600x360.jpg
This is a very old style pig sticker mortise chisel with the notched blade and the brass bolster. 11.5" overall, with 5"
blade, 3/16” is the size, I like this one very much. Everything is tight and rugged, sharp and ready to go. There's light, dark pitting at
the top of the blade, but it has cleaned up and sharpened well. I wouldn't be afraid to whack any of these chisels. $25

http://circabellum.com/sitebuilder/images/mchalf-399x600.jpg
This one's a monster! Half inch
mortise chisel, it's not really a pig
sticker, but it is quite ruggedly built. If
you need a half inch mortiser, this one
would fill the bill. Not a common size.
15.5" overall length with a 9" blade
(illegal for concealed carry in 47
states!). There are brass ferrules at
the top and bottom of the handle and
the handle appears to have been
stamped, "Walker" before this
modification. Now it says, "alker".
Maker's mark is a half circle with a
horse head and fleur de lis. So,
maybe French? There are 2 tight
cracks in the wood that are controlled
by the brass rings. The blade has lots
of whack marks on it, but they don't
interfere with sharpening or using the
chisel. Massive, that's all I can say.
$35

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[Alan DuBoff]

They look like old chisels.

I like old tools.

But since your the one buying them, what do you think?

I would not say they are cheap. Seems like market value.

[richard poitras]

Alan, As far as price I think that is a far price “market value” as you state, but I was more concerned about how well they would work and hold up, I know a lot of folks say the old chisels are better than a lot of the new ones unless you spend on the upper price range. But I was just wondering also if these seem to be good one’s as far as brands … I know that the seller doesn’t state what kind they are but can anyone tell if they seem like a decent make or what the make is by looking at them?

Richard

[richard poitras]

Also how hard is it to replace handles on the pig sticker chisels? (Or can you buy them, I don’t have a lathe) At looking at the 1/8'' one it needs a new handle…

[Mike Henderson]

They're only a good deal if you're going to use them (unless you're a collector - but then you be asking your question - you'd know).

On old pigstickers, you want to know that there's a laminated layer of steel on the blade. I'd also want to know the maker of each one - a name brand gives you some confidence and provides a resale value. Also, it'd be nice to see the words "cast steel" on an old chisel. Cast steel was the best steel up to the early 1900's (maybe up to 1920). A maker using it would probably put that in the mark so if it's not there, you may be getting lesser quality steel.

Pigstickers are only good for one thing - making a mortise. I bought a set (one at a time over time), but find it easier to drill out the mortise with a slightly smaller bit and clean up with bench chisels.

But if you want a set of pigstickers, you can find name brands on eBay at decent prices. It'll just take a while to get a set, and they won't all be the same brand unless you want to wait a very long time.

Mike

[Cast steel is just carbon steel. Alloy steels didn't come until late in the 19th century.]

[Mike Henderson]

Also how hard is it to replace handles on the pig sticker chisels? (Or can you buy them, I don’t have a lathe) At looking at the 1/8'' one it needs a new handle…
It's easy to make new handles and you don't use a lathe to make them. They're not round. If you look at one from the top, the shape is sort of a rectangle, but it also tapers from the top to the bolster.

To make the hole (mortise) for the tang, I drill a hole then use chisels to widen and taper it. Note that you're cutting into end grain when making that mortise. It's pretty easy. Use some scrap for your first one and you'll get the hang of it quickly.

I've used pecan, maple and some other woods (don't remember) for pigsticker handles.

Mike

[Gary Herrmann]

I assume that bottom one is a millwright chisel. I've seen NOS millwrights go for $35 on the bay. Good condition $15 to $20. If it were me, I'd offer less. But perhaps its one of the collectable brands...

[Derek Cohen]

I have Ray Iles Oval Bolstered Mortice Chisels in 1/4" and 3/8". I also have several vintage English versions, mostly Ward, in sizes that range from 1/8" through 1/2".

I decided to try a RI version since I work very hard wood. The vintage chisels were doing a good job (unlike the vintage Witherbys and Stanley I had, and sold), but I was curious whether the RI with their D2 steel would be an improvement in edge holding. In feel and use there was no difference. When the chisels were sharp there was no difference. The RI do hold an edge longer, so they are now my "go to" mortice chisels.

In less hard wood than the average Australian eucalypt, these OBMC will work just fine. If I did not have the RI chisels, I would still be a "pigsticker in the ..." :)

You need to determine what sizes you need. 1/4" and 3/8" (that one is a Monster!) cover a lot of territory. Some like 5/16". I have used a 1/8" on several occasions. The 1/2" is unused (but ready to go), however I shudder as thought of hammering it into hardwood.

For a cost saving, you might consider doing as I did, that is getting blades without handles, and re-handling them yourself. It is not difficult. I paid about $10 per chisel for full-length blades (about 7" each).

Here is a 1/4" RI flanked by two Wards, one a 1/4" and the other a 1/2" ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/RayIlesmorticechisel1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/OBMC1.jpg

Restoring chisels is fun. Here are a "set" of Ibbotsons I collected over a few years, and made handles for. Then sold them as I preferred the OBM variety to the socketed type .. but you may like them, so don't rule them out.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Morticechiselrestoration1.jpg

Rehandling An Oval Bolstered Mortice Chisel ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRestorations/Rehandling%20an%20Oval%20Bolstered%20Mortice%20Chi sel.html


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stephen Shepherd]

The third 'very old' chisel looks like an altered turnscrew (screwdriver).

Stephen

[David Keller NC]

Richard - Regarding brands, it's not possible to tell without seeing the maker's mark. This syle/form of chisel is very, very old, and even in the 18th century there were some 20 cutlers (makers of edge tools) listed in the Sheffield directory. I've quite a few of these old "pig stickers" and the form is so close that the only real distinction is the maker's mark.

Regarding value - what Mike mentioned about the laminated steel tip is critical. On chisels made before the 20th century (and even some larger sizes in the 20th century), most of the blade was made of wrought iron, and a thin piece of cast or shear steel was forge-welded onto the back of the chisel so that it formed the very tip of the cutting edge. These pieces were typically only about 2-3" long, so over time and many sharpenings, they get shorter or could be worn away completely. If that piece is gone or very short, the chisel isn't usable - the wrought iron in the blade is too soft to take and hold an edge. The only way to restore the chisel to usable condition is to have a blacksmith "re-steel" the back, and it's cheaper simply to get another chisel.

If you look closely on the side of the chisel (assuming the metal is polished - pretty hard to tell if it's rusty or dark), you can see the thin steel edge, as it reflects light differently. It's pretty tough to photograph this, so I don't buy old chisels unless I can view them in person or it's from a person I know is familiar with the construction.

As to value, $25 for a good, usable mortise chisel with a decent beech handle is a pretty good value if it's a miscellaneous British brand from the mid-19th century. This would be a lot rarer, but a mortise chisel from a recognized 18th century maker (such as Samuel Freeth or James Cam (the early mark) has significant collector's value and is worth a lot more than $25.

One other thing to look for - it's fairly important (though not as critical as a paring or bench chisel) that the back not be "bellied" - that is, the back should be straight and flat throughout the length of the chisel. On heavily used mortise chisels, the first 1" of the end of the chisel is often worn away from the back being stropped or honed. In this case, if you're digging out a mortise deeper than that transition, the presence of a back-bevel makes getting a good, straight end cut difficult.

[richard poitras]

Thanks for all the opinions not sure what direction I am going to go with these ….
Richard

[Jim Koepke]

There is a lot of good advice above.

The set of chisels shown seem a little pricey to me. My approach is patience and keep looking on eBay.

I bought two nice pig stickers on the Bay, a Newbould and a James Cam, for less than $50. I have lost a lot of bids for chisels. Eventually though, the patience pays off and I get good tools at a reasonable price.


Regarding value - what Mike mentioned about the laminated steel tip is critical. On chisels made before the 20th century (and even some larger sizes in the 20th century), most of the blade was made of wrought iron, and a thin piece of cast or shear steel was forge-welded onto the back of the chisel so that it formed the very tip of the cutting edge. These pieces were typically only about 2-3" long, so over time and many sharpenings, they get shorter or could be worn away completely.
[snip]
If you look closely on the side of the chisel (assuming the metal is polished - pretty hard to tell if it's rusty or dark), you can see the thin steel edge, as it reflects light differently. It's pretty tough to photograph this, so I don't buy old chisels unless I can view them in person or it's from a person I know is familiar with the construction.
[snip]
As to value, $25 for a good, usable mortise chisel with a decent beech handle is a pretty good value if it's a miscellaneous British brand from the mid-19th century. This would be a lot rarer, but a mortise chisel from a recognized 18th century maker (such as Samuel Freeth or James Cam (the early mark) has significant collector's value and is worth a lot more than $25.

I like my James Cam even if it does need a new handle.

Maybe it is the "James" that appeals to me.

jim