Gas Generator

[Byron Trantham]

Here's the scenario. Generator runs until it runs out of gas. I need to refill and run it more. The engine is hot, specifically the muffler is very hot. While filling the tank I am afraid that the fumes may ignite because of the hot muffler. I have thought about putting a towel, 2 or 3 layers thick to isolate the muffler from any fumes. The tank is on top of the generator and the muffler is about a foot away underneath the tank.

What is a safe way to refill a tank when the engine is hot. I can't wait for cool off because it would be running a sump pump keeping water out of my basement. Suggestions?

[Joe Suelter]

Do Not put a towel or anything else that is flammable on top of the muffler!!! I learned this the hard way on a tiller one time!!!! They do sell products that will isolate the muffler from the gas tank, any ag-store should have what you need. There are products to wrap around the muffler (header tape-sold in automotive speed shops), as well as heat shields to dissipate (sp) the heat. As for the fumes while filling, hmmm, that's a tough call. Is it possible to move the gas tank and re-route the fuel lines? That shouldn't be that tough if it is a stationary generator. You could also have a remote tank say on the ground that could be fed from an electric fuel pump, regulated for the proper fuel pressure for your model generator. That way, it could be a larger volume tank that would allow it to run for longer periods of time. Filling a hot engine is pretty dangerous, especially one that has been running for a couple hours with the tank/muffler that close. Sounds like the engine might be gravity fed from the tank, there are small DC powered fuel pumps that are "pusher" style pumps that can be mounted very close to a remote tank and "push" the fuel up towards the carb. Talk with your local small engine dealer and they can maybe recommend some things too.

[Byron Trantham]

Do Not put a towel or anything else that is flammable on top of the muffler!!! I learned this the hard way on a tiller one time!!!! They do sell products that will isolate the muffler from the gas tank, any ag-store should have what you need. There are products to wrap around the muffler (header tape-sold in automotive speed shops), as well as heat shields to dissipate (sp) the heat. As for the fumes while filling, hmmm, that's a tough call. Is it possible to move the gas tank and re-route the fuel lines? That shouldn't be that tough if it is a stationary generator. You could also have a remote tank say on the ground that could be fed from an electric fuel pump, regulated for the proper fuel pressure for your model generator. That way, it could be a larger volume tank that would allow it to run for longer periods of time. Filling a hot engine is pretty dangerous, especially one that has been running for a couple hours with the tank/muffler that close. Sounds like the engine might be gravity fed from the tank, there are small DC powered fuel pumps that are "pusher" style pumps that can be mounted very close to a remote tank and "push" the fuel up towards the carb. Talk with your local small engine dealer and they can maybe recommend some things too.
Joe, this is very good advice. I will check locally. I DID fill the tank after it had been running for about 9 hours during hurrrican Isabel. Scared the crap out of me. I didn't have a choice, water was running in almost faster than the sump pump could pump.

[Lee Schierer]

My thoughts would be to modify the fuel source so that you can switch tanks. They have some nifty methods for connecting tanks to outboards that just clip together. Maybe you can add one of these to your generator and just switch tanks. Then you can refuel the empty tank safely and without worry about the water level getting too high.

[Byron Trantham]

My thoughts would be to modify the fuel source so that you can switch tanks. They have some nifty methods for connecting tanks to outboards that just clip together. Maybe you can add one of these to your generator and just switch tanks. Then you can refuel the empty tank safely and without worry about the water level getting too high.
Lee, great minds run together. :D

I already figured out what to do. I'll put a "Y" in the existing gas line so if I run out during a storm, I can simply plug in the aux tank. If IT runs out I can move it to another location for filling. A whole lot of hupla but this is the safest thing to do. I have run into this situation only once, but once is all it takes to make me a visitor in the Space Station! :(

[Joe Suelter]

Hey Byron, I was thinking about this most of the afternoon at work...why not simply modify the mounts for the tank so it can be easily and quickly removed, and get a wee-longer fuel line with a quick disconnect (like air hose couplings, but made for fuel), that way you can do a "snatch and grab" with the tank, and fill it in the garage? Sound feasable? Shouldn't cost more than a few bucks to do.

[Byron Trantham]

Hey Byron, I was thinking about this most of the afternoon at work...why not simply modify the mounts for the tank so it can be easily and quickly removed, and get a wee-longer fuel line with a quick disconnect (like air hose couplings, but made for fuel), that way you can do a "snatch and grab" with the tank, and fill it in the garage? Sound feasable? Shouldn't cost more than a few bucks to do.
Joe - you talk about an epiphany! :rolleyes: Man, that IS EXACTLY what I am going to do. Man, sometimes the simplest solutions stare you right in the face. :D

[Glenn Clabo]

Ken,
I don't work for OSHA or the EPA...but I've had personal family experience with this and the fact is...it's extremely dangerous to fill a tank that is near any source of heat...~400 deg + 1 gallon of gas = 83 lbs of TNT! Filling a gas tank next to a hot muffler is simply not safe. Just because a manufacturer puts a muffler next to a gas tank doesn't make it okay to fill the tank when the engine is hot...and just because you have been lucky doesn't make it safe either. Sorry to be so testy...but gas fumes will ignite off a hot muffler...It can do more damage than a human can withstand. I have a nephew who didn't live to see his 16th birthday to prove it.

[Byron Trantham]

Ken,
I don't work for OSHA or the EPA...but I've had personal family experience with this and the fact is...it's extremely dangerous to fill a tank that is near any source of heat...~400 deg + 1 gallon of gas = 83 lbs of TNT! Filling a gas tank next to a hot muffler is simply not safe. Just because a manufacturer puts a muffler next to a gas tank doesn't make it okay to fill the tank when the engine is hot...and just because you have been lucky doesn't make it safe either. Sorry to be so testy...but gas fumes will ignite off a hot muffler...It can do more damage than a human can withstand. I have a nephew who didn't live to see his 16th birthday to prove it.

Glenn, Don't worry, I totally ignored the guy. Messing with gas around any kind of heat source is problematic. Thanks to Joe, I am going to make the existing tank "portable" so I can move it away from the engine when I need to fill and the engine is hot. Sometimes, as I said to Joe, the solutions just stare you in the face! :D

[Bart Leetch]

Since it sounds like the gen set is used for this application only why don't you just take the tank off & mount it in a remote location away from the gen set. I don't think I would make the tank any bigger because between each tank full you should be checking the oil level. Most likely all you would need is some hose & clamps & a way to mount the tank.

[Joe Suelter]

Yes, Ken, I agree that Honda put the tank there, however, I'm sure it says right on it "Do Not Fill Engine when Hot", or something to that effect. Outside, you are no safer than inside, with the exception of the wind, and more air to disperse the fuel vapors...BUT, it is hot enough to ignite the vapors...most definately!!!! I know this from personnal experience (long story). Take heed to the manufacturers warning labels, they are there for a reason!!! Remember the guy a few years back who was working on his race car in the garage with a drop light under the car, and he spilled a few drops of gas on the light bulb??? I think 60 minutes or Dateline did a show on him. The cold gas and the hot light bulb make a deadly combo, and I'm sure the muffler is a lot hotter than the light bulb!!!!!

[Byron Trantham]

Thank you, Joe!

[Ken Garlock]

... Remember the guy a few years back who was working on his race car in the garage with a drop light under the car, and he spilled a few drops of gas on the light bulb??? I think 60 minutes or Dateline did a show on him. The cold gas and the hot light bulb make a deadly combo, and I'm sure the muffler is a lot hotter than the light bulb!!!!!

Joe, take a look at what most likely happened. A couple drops of cold(room temp) gas on a hot bulb glass. The glass breaks immediately, the gas hits the 3000 deg filament, and you have ignition and liftoff. The problem was with the mechanic not having taken care to keep the gas contained. People have to be responsible for their own actions. A concept that is becoming less popular these days. In NO way am I saying it served him right, but he was responsible for his own actions and results.

Byron, you are trying to make sure your gas is contained. I cede your point.

Joe, Byron, I think this discussion has dragged on for long enough, and hence I have removed my previous postings. Byron, I am sure you will find a solution that is satisfactory to you. I wish you well :)

[Joe Suelter]

Ken, I wasn't trying to bash you, Byron was simply asking for some suggestions for his problem, and all I did was try to give him a feasable option, rather than say "it won't/can't happen""It's never exploded on me in 63 years". As you said in your earlier post, fire needs three things...perhaps one day all three will be present! Will it ever explode? probably not, but he felt it was unsafe and wanted an alternative to make his job of refueling a little safer. That is all I was trying to do, and I apologize if I offended you in any way. But, there is no point in getting upset over it, and removing your previous posts, you did nothing wrong, we are merely having a discussion...opinions do vary! That is what makes us human.
Ken, I'm sorry for upseting you.
Byron, good luck, let me know how it works out for you! I'm curious as to know what you came up with.

B.T.W. fuel line quick disconnects are a little hard to find, especially for line that small. If your local ag-supplier doesn't carry them, check out either Earl's (a fitting division of Holley Carb.'s) or Aeroquip, both are performance fitting and hose comapanies.

[Rob Russell]

Byron,

FYI, the most important difference between fuel line quick connect fittings and a more normal air/fluid fitting are the valves. Both the female socket and male plug have internal valves that are sealed until you push and seat the male plug in the female socket. That's what opens the valves. With a typical quick connect set, while the female socket might not leak, the male plug would just drip gas and that's not likely what you want to do.

I would think that one of these Neat Gas Tanks (http://www.tempoproducts.com/gaswalker.html) with a female connect on the end and set up higher than your generator would keep you running for a long time. You'd want to plumb it something like the attached pic.

Rob

[Byron Trantham]

Bob, I intend to use the existing tank. I need some fuel line, and that's about it. I figure 15' should do it. I kept the link you provided. Thanks :D