New to Woodworking

[Nathan Wittman]

I am in the process of signing up for some wood working classes and become proficient at building furniture and some speakers for my home theater. I have built a desk and some tables in the past and it brought me a large amount of satisfaction.

Everything until now has been done with hand held tools (makita circular saw, drills, jig saw, orbital sanders... etc)

So now I am ready to jump in with both feet and pick up a table saw and a router. I am budgeting somewhere around $1000 for TS / Router. Could be a little more or a little less. I have a 3 car garage that I use to work on projects, I just have to be able to keep 1 car stall open for my wifes car.

So, if possible I need some direction and opinions where my money is best spent.

Should I consider a guide system (ez, festool, dewalt) instead of a table saw?

Should I pick up a used TS under $500 to see how much I use it or will that just create too much frustration?

Anybody have a recommendation on a good versitle router that I will be happy with for a while?

I realize these are very subjective questions, but I would appreciate your opinions. Thank you in advance for your relies.

[Lee Schierer]

If you are new to power tools, you may wnat to consider the Saw Stop table saw. They have a contractor version now that should meet your needs starting out. I've heard good reviews of thier cabinet saw. I have no idea what they want for the contractor style saw.

I've always thought that my next router would be a Porter Cable 690 router kit with fixed and plunge bases. It looks like a good router, but' I've never tried one. I own an old Craftsman single speed that lacks power and a Freud 2-1/2 Hp that is a little awkard for free routing on smaller work or using on a dovetail guide.

[Mark Roderick]

Your questions are a little open-ended. If you can pick up a GOOD used table saw for under $500, go for it. But don't buy a BAD used table saw for any price.

Any of the "professional" quality routers will do fine - Bosch, Makita, Milwaukee, DeWalt, etc. Look at some tool reviews in Fine Woodworking or American Woodworker, but you can't really go wrong within that group.

A friend of mine decided to get into woodworking a few years ago and I wrote him a memo with my thoughts and recommendations. You might find it helpful, or might not.

Good luck, it's a great hobby.

MARK RODERICK

[Nathan Wittman]

Wow, thank you both for the quick replies. I appreciate the pdf, it is more than I could ask for.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I would also try to pick up some of the woodworking magazines that have had tool reviews in them. I believe that Wood magazine had a router comparison a while back, and a hybrid T/S review in the current or last issue. The reviews should give you a ballpark idea of which manufacterers to avoid and which one's to keep an eye out for.

[Bob Ross]

Nathan,

You don't tell us where you are. I, for one, would welcome a newbie to come for a cup of coffee and try my tools. Bring your (mandatory) safety glasses and heaing protection.

[glenn bradley]

I was going to offer the same as Bob but TX to CA would be an awkward commute. The GCS folks will surely pounce so I'll toss in my .02. A guided system is a great asset and a boon to those who cannot have a table saw but it is far from a replacement.

Consider the items you want to make and then pick your big tools. A man I respect very much wrote an article where the table saw was like number 8 on his list of important tools. For him, the bandsaw was first but, he meant a bandsaw of the type that would eat your entire budget.

That being said, a hybrid table saw would fit your budget, require now electrical additions if you don't have 220v service and give you a more robust saw in a smaller footprint than a contractors saw. You could also consider a RT as an extension wing for further consolidation. And I'll follow that up by saying that I believe a jointer is the number 1 or 2 tool on a any list. The jointer establishes your reference surface for all work that follows.

Now I'll step aside as you will surely get more info here than anyone can digest. Welcome to a very rewarding hobby and a fine group of folks to interact with.

[Jason White]

For the money, you can't beat a contractor's saw like the RIDGID TS3650.

As for routers -- the basic Porter Cable 690 is a great place to start. You'll end up with several routers anyway, and this one should definitely be in your arsenal.

JW




I am in the process of signing up for some wood working classes and become proficient at building furniture and some speakers for my home theater. I have built a desk and some tables in the past and it brought me a large amount of satisfaction.

Everything until now has been done with hand held tools (makita circular saw, drills, jig saw, orbital sanders... etc)

So now I am ready to jump in with both feet and pick up a table saw and a router. I am budgeting somewhere around $1000 for TS / Router. Could be a little more or a little less. I have a 3 car garage that I use to work on projects, I just have to be able to keep 1 car stall open for my wifes car.

So, if possible I need some direction and opinions where my money is best spent.

Should I consider a guide system (ez, festool, dewalt) instead of a table saw?

Should I pick up a used TS under $500 to see how much I use it or will that just create too much frustration?

Anybody have a recommendation on a good versitle router that I will be happy with for a while?

I realize these are very subjective questions, but I would appreciate your opinions. Thank you in advance for your relies.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I realize these are very subjective questions, but I would appreciate your opinions. Thank you in advance for your relies.

Nathan,
Welcome to woodworking.


The statement from Glenn is out of date:... The GCS folks will surely pounce so I'll toss in my .02. A guided system is a great asset and a boon to those who cannot have a table saw but it is far from a replacement.


Here is a poll from the "other side" of woodworking.
Opinions are good. Facts are better.;)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=91851&highlight=poll

[Bill White]

You can pick up a good used TS at a reasonable price. The lightly used Grizz I bought has been great.
The Porter-Cable 690 is the mainstay for many shops. I have not regretted buying mine. Built my router table 'cause I could, and I wanted to save some bucks.
Trick is to set up the saw and the router VERY accurately. Ya do this, and you'll be well pleased.
Bill

[Joe Von Kaenel]

Nathan,


As many woodworkers have recommended in the past: The table saw is the centerpiece of your shop. I agree with Jason. The Ridgid 3650 is a great table saw for hobbyist. Watch for sales on-line and at Home Depot. Then as you need other equipment buy it.

Joe

[BOB OLINGER]

Hi Nathan,

I can't disagree with previous replies. The TS is the foundation rock for the shop - and you don't need to go overboard. My Dad gave me a 9" Delta (new) contactors in mid '70's that I used until late this summer in which I bought a used 10" Delta contractors saw (very good condition) at a garage sale for $200. While it's not a cabinet saw or even one of the new hybrids, I'm just as anxious to use it as if it was. I build some pretty good stuff and you can, also, without breaking the bank on a workable TS. Wish you the best.

[Drew Eckhardt]

I am in the process of signing up for some wood working classes and become proficient at building furniture and some speakers for my home theater. I have built a desk and some tables in the past and it brought me a large amount of satisfaction.

Should I consider a guide system (ez, festool, dewalt) instead of a table saw?


No. A table saw makes it trivial to cut 2 or 20 pieces to the same dimensions (like 4 sides of a speaker enclosure to the same height). It's easy to start at 1/32" accuracy, and a little bump on the fence will sneak up on much tighter tolerances if you're trying to fit a brace into an enclosure or whatever.

Get a good table saw and steer away from "jobsite" saws if you don't need the portability since the capacity is limiting.



Anybody have a recommendation on a good versitle router that I will be happy with for a while?
You want something with a plunge base (good for circular cut-outs for speaker drivers) and micro-adjustable fixed base (that may end up in a router table) since that makes it easier to make precise adjustments for joinery or to get a round-over to line up with an edge.

Bosch, Freud, etc. 2 1/4 HP.

My Porter Cable 890 wasn't built to the same quality standard (mounting pattern accuracy, plunge base slop) as my old 690 and I've waited months from Delta/Porter-Cable for parts on my drill press so I couldn't recommend the product or company.

[scott spencer]

Hi Nathan - I'd focus the bulk of my time and budget on a TS, as it's a major tool and is a personal choice. Just about any full size saw from a major name will serve you well. The end performance is largely determined by the setup and blade selection, so focus on getting a saw with the features you like best and retail circumstances you're comfortable with, then set it up well and choose a good blade. Here's a good article (http://www.rockler.com/articles/display_article.cfm?story_id=115) about the different types of saws that should help you pick the right one.

If you have 220v, I'd consider biting the bullet and getting a cabinet saw like a Grizzly 1023. If you don't have 220v, a hybrid is a good choice with many of the same advantages. Buying used can help stretch your budget.

A suitable router is easier to come by. You may want two or more eventually....a larger one for use in a router table, a smaller one for hand use. You can't go wrong if you stick with something from Milwaukee, PC, Freud, Hitachi, Makita, DeWalt, Bosch, or Triton.

[Peter Quadarella]

As a new woodworker, I had a healthy fear of the tablesaw, so I didn't get one. Now I am enjoying all the extra space and not missing one.

The main thing to avoid though, is the lathe! Don't go near them, they will suck you in and you will never see light again.

[Drew Eckhardt]

That being said, a hybrid table saw would fit your budget, require now electrical additions if you don't have 220v service and give you a more robust saw in a smaller footprint than a contractors saw. You could also consider a RT as an extension wing for further consolidation. And I'll follow that up by saying that I believe a jointer is the number 1 or 2 tool on a any list. The jointer establishes your reference surface for all work that follows.


A router table with offset fence will edge-joint (where a "router table" can be "a flat piece of your favorite sheet goods" plus some sort of similarly improvised fence). If you're not buying rough lumber you may not need to face joint, although getting solid wood and sheet goods to the same thickness might be nice.

Now I'll step aside as you will surely get more info here than anyone can digest. Welcome to a very rewarding hobby and a fine group of folks to interact with.[/quote]

[Rod Sheridan]

Nathan, you've received many varied replies containing a wealth of suggestions. That's the great aspect of Sawmill Creek.

It's easy to look back on 30 years of woodworking as a hobby and give advice on what I'd have done differently, so I'll take the easy route and do that

1) Dust collection, I started with a shop vac, went to a bag type collector, and after a startling allergic reaction to wood dust at year 20, I purchased an Oneida cyclone. You can't build things with a cyclone, except for a healthy future.

2) I went from the cast iron contractor saw, to a General 650 saw. The contractor saw had the usual limitations, which could be fixed by modifications, however in the end you have a contractor saw. I made some nice furniture with it, however the cabinet saw is so much easier to use. Now I wish I'd purchased a slider or slider/shaper combo. maybe next year.

3) jointer and planer, if you want to make solid wood furniture. I recently replaced two pieces of General equipment for one Hammer piece. Although General is top of the line (and the only North American manufacturer) they aren't in the same league as the European machines.

4) router, almost never use one, which makes me the odd one out in woodworking. I do own a shaper however.

So to start, a good contractor saw, or cabinet saw, possibly used equipment. Central machine in most shops, spend enough money to get an excellent product.

Dust collection, if you don't have the budget for a cyclone, a portable unit is far better than no unit. Forget about trying to use a ceiling mount air cleaner as a substitute, any time you have the dust in the air (failed to capture it at the source) your lungs are doing double duty as an air cleaner.

The above gets you going for making many pieces of furniture, primarily from sheet goods.

Add some hand tools as previously mentioned, learn how to sharpen them and use them.

Later add a bandsaw, jointer, planer, shaper or router table etc.

Don't forget GOOD clamps like Bessey, ask for them for Christmas, your birthday, Fathers day, the dogs birthday etc. You can never have too many clamps.

Oh, and don't forget to build furniture, many of us get side tracked on building the shop instead of furniture.

Regards, Rod.

[Nathan Wittman]

Thank you for all of these replies, I am learning alot already.

I did come across a 2 year old Delta Contractor Saw with 30" Biesemeyer Fence and miter gage for < $500. It looks like it is in good condition. The model is 36-441B

Does this seem like it would fit the bill initially? It is tempting. Thanks again for the replies.

[John Sanford]

Should I consider a guide system (ez, festool, dewalt) instead of a table saw? consider, yes. Choose? I dunno. Heck, maybe you should consider a bandsaw and router instead of a tablesaw and router. You can accomplish pretty much the same thing with any of the three options, its just a matter of how you go about it.


Should I pick up a used TS under $500 to see how much I use it or will that just create too much frustration? I'm not sure how it would create too much frustration, unless you pick up a lousy used TS! :eek:


Anybody have a recommendation on a good versitle router that I will be happy with for a while? Bosch 1617EVSK combo kit. 1/4" & 1/2" collets, soft start, electronic variable speed, fixed and plunge base, rack and pinion height adjustment, micro-adjustable. This is probably the best combo kit out there, having eclipsed the Porter Cable 690 combos (helical vertical adjustment), as well as the DeWalt and Makita combos. Last time I looked at combos, Milwaukee didn't have one, so it may be a contender as well, and I believe that PC may be selling the 694 in a combo now, so take a look at it. The Bosch is a tough one to beat though.... For a big "livin' in the router table" router, the best choice out there seems to be the Triton.

[John Sanford]

Thank you for all of these replies, I am learning alot already.

I did come across a 2 year old Delta Contractor Saw with 30" Biesemeyer Fence and miter gage for < $500. It looks like it is in good condition. The model is 36-441B

Does this seem like it would fit the bill initially? It is tempting. Thanks again for the replies.


441b, yes, that would fit the bill initially. I've been using a Delta CS for quite some time. IF you have 230v power available (probable), then you should also keep your eyes out for a used cabinet saw. Time it right, you can get one for around that price.

[Eric DeSilva]

I've advocated this in the past--be patient and shop craigslist. I picked up a Delta Platinum Edition Unisaw with the 50" bies fence, mobile base, tenoning jig, and several blades, in good condition for $700. (Good, in this context, meaning that it required some adjustment, but was mechanically fine and did not have rust. That would leave you plenty to shop for a router. Based on what I wanted to do, I knew I'd want the accuracy of a cabinet saw, so if I bought a contractor's saw, it would ultimately have been upgraded anyway. Most cabinet saws require 220V, however.

Speaker design, in my mind, is a black art and if you want them to sound good, take some time to find a good, solid, proven design. There are a lot of web sites dedicated to reverse engineering various high end speakers. I'm a huge fan of Proac speakers--I run both 3.8s and Response 2s--and those designs (baffled ports) seem relatively easy to accomplish. For a more advanced project, look up the David-Jerico (that's the way it was spelled) speaker project, which attempted to replicate Wilson Watt/Puppy speakers. I was tempted to try that one a while back, but wanted to do it using Corian like Wilson does. Unfortunately, had a hard time finding Corian in the right sizes. The project site uses plywood, I think.

Have fun with it!

[Jason White]

Way too much money. Talk them down to $350. You can get a new one for close to that price.




Thank you for all of these replies, I am learning alot already.

I did come across a 2 year old Delta Contractor Saw with 30" Biesemeyer Fence and miter gage for < $500. It looks like it is in good condition. The model is 36-441B

Does this seem like it would fit the bill initially? It is tempting. Thanks again for the replies.

[Nathan Wittman]

220 is not a problem, since i am currently having it run to my garage for a compressor. Maybe I need to think about adding a sub box out there so that I can run mulitple 220 tools, compressor & TS.

Again, thank you for all of the replies.

[John Sanford]

220 is not a problem, since i am currently having it run to my garage for a compressor. Maybe I need to think about adding a sub box out there so that I can run mulitple 220 tools, compressor & TS.

Again, thank you for all of the replies.

Yes, add a subpanel. A fully equipped 1 person shop can anticipate running 2 220v tools at once (honkin wood remover of some sort, and a dust collector), with the "I'm gonna come on when I feel like it" compressor on top of that.

My suggestion about the bandsaw was a serious one. Head down to your local library and get some books on bandsaws (Michael Dunbar's is probably the best). Doing speakers and other casework, the tablesaw may be the better choice, but a bandsaw is a much more flexible tool, as the books will reveal. In the end, assuming you stick with woodworking, you'll almost certainly end up with both. Mind you, I started Delta Contractor's Saw (still using it :)), not a bandsaw, and don't currently have a bandsaw (got one on layaway tho!), so I'm not "anti-tablesaw". I just think you oughtta be exploring the options.