Vacuum Press options ?

[Doug Shepard]

I think it's time I got one. I've looked a few years ago but haven't kept up with who has what. I've got a fair bit of veneer purchased at various times with an eye towards future projects and would rather try a vac press on the next one rather than cauls/platens and press frames which I've done in the past. Here's what I think I'd like:
- A ready-to-use setup with minimal assembly (dont need another project at the moment)
- Minimal learning curve
- Smallish capacity. I would think 2'x2' or 2'x3' would be plenty.
- Cheap is good, but so is quality. I'd rather spend a few bucks more rather than end up with junk that needs to be replaced later.
- Expandability to larger bags would be a plus, but not if that pushes me into a drastically higher price range.

I see a lot of recommendations about the joewoodworker site but thought I'd throw the question out there before I start looking more seriously. I'm under the impression (possibly in error) from past look-sees that their stuff is a bit more of a kit form needing some build time. So what are my options? Make and model numbers or links would be much appreciated.

TIA

[John Lucas]

I suggest you peruse Vacupress website. http://www.vacupress.com/ If nothing else, buy their videos. It covers everything you need to know.

[Dewey Torres]

Doug,
I did some research and landed on a kit just like the one the JWW sells but I saved some money buying a pump from the bay:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=85790&highlight=press

[Jim Tobias]

I second John's recommendation: I bought from Vacupress. Their system is easy and simple to use.

If you buy, they are very good. http://www.vacupress.com/

If you want to build it yourself/kit: Jow Woodworker. http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm

Jim

[Al Navas]

Vacupress - terrific products, and terrific support!


.

[Gregory Stahl]

I just bought the Excel 5 system from joewoodworker. It took me only about 20-minutes to assemble--not bad at all.

I thought about trying to piece one together to save money--but after seeing what Grainger is getting for new pumps--I decided the Excel 5 was a good deal.

[Frank Drew]

I got lucky and found a very good used pump at a tool dealer, laboratory grade, pulled very close to a complete vacuum. Made a bag myself with heavy duty vinyl and vinyl glue. Got a few feet of used 1/4" hosing from a local auto mechanic, made a platen out of particle board, and I was set to go. I'd been expecting good results but I was nevertheless amazed by how well the whole thing worked. Absolutely, positively the best method I've ever tried or seen for most veneer pressing... flat, curved, whatever.

[Brad Shipton]

Before purchasing a vacupress I looked at Joe's options. I know I could have saved quite a few dollars going with one of his setups, but I sure am glad I went with the Vacupress. It arrived, I built a platten, watched his DVD's and I was pressing panels. No machine building, sourcing odd ball parts, or the enevitable trial and error process getting it all fine tuned to work properly. Vacupress sells a compressor powered version that will save a couple of bucks, but only if your compressor is big enough. I went with one of the 5cfm vacuums. I would suggest aiming for a 5cfm as a minimum. Veneering opens up a lot of options you may not be thinking of right now and a 5cfm will work great for larger panels. I started with this primarily to make door staves, and now I have been trying many different species (crotch woods, burls and many species one cannot afford or find in solid stock).

Good luck.
Brad

[Bill Arnold]

Joe Woodworker can help you whether you've got deep pockets and want a turnkey system, or want to save some money and do a little manual labor. I bought an AC vacuum pump from a friend, a few standard pieces of brass pipe and some pvc at the borg, a couple of specialty items from Joe and I was in business.

Don't let anyone try to talk you into the expensive bag material, either. I started with a $6 shower curtain from WallyWorld. I have since graduated to making my bags with some heavy-duty vinyl material available at a lot of fabric stores.

[Doug Shepard]

I just bought the Excel 5 system from joewoodworker. It took me only about 20-minutes to assemble--not bad at all.
...



...I went with one of the 5cfm vacuums. I would suggest aiming for a 5cfm as a minimum. Veneering opens up a lot of options you may not be thinking of right now and a 5cfm will work great for larger panels....

Well I've been perusing since yesterday and so far Greg's Excel tip is the forerunner at the moment (muchos gracias Greg). That package and the Excel 1 look to be more complete packages rather than the other DIY type kits JWW sells.

Brad
Unless they have another page I just haven't found yet, they seem to jump from 4 (compressor type) to 6 cfm models (no 5's) http://www.vacupress.com/pricing.htm
Do you have a model number?

So I'm trying to do a price comparison between JWW and Vacupress as close as I can.
The Excel 5 (http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?products_id=2299) + 2'x4' 30 mil Poly bag + closure = $478.90

I think the closest thing to the Excel 5 that Vacupress has is 408 6PS with 49x97 30 mil poly bag ($448 alone) for $1181. Subtracting off the difference between a 49x49 30 mil poly bag ($243) would make the package $976 but that's assuming I could switch to that smaller bag (their smallest) at that package price.

So a difference of $497.10
Obviously this isn't an exact comparison but $500 is a pretty big difference. What am I missing that would warrant the extra $500 ??

[Brad Shipton]

My bad, mine is a 6cfm version. To understand the difference I think you will need to contact Darryl at Vacupress. One of two things I think. The parts are different or the manufacturing location. I dont believe Darryl has anything built overseas, but I am not an expert on his manufacturing. The only obvious difference is the Excel does not have the components house in a case, but thats not $500.

Brad

[Gregory Stahl]

The Excel 5 (http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?products_id=2299) + 2'x4' 30 mil Poly bag + closure = $478.90


The veneersupplies.com poly bags are actually 20 mil, not 30 mil, so this will account for some price difference.

I bought one and didn't catch this detail until after it arrived--it feels a bit thin. Oh-well, I think I am going to stick with vinyl for my smaller bags anyway.

Best,
Greg

[Mike Spanbauer]

Daryl knows his stuff too, I've often considered upgrading to one of his 6 or 10 pumps, but I'm waiting until my current unit blows up :)

mike

Edit: Doug's research caused me to go back and I could have sworn that the literature originally stated 30mil... As Greg noted though, they state 20ga. now I've pressed a lot of things with them all and had no issues, so they are certainly durable enough... but it's interesting to see that they are 20mil...

(I need to check my receipts tonight now and see what was on them... it doesn't affect the performance, but a buying criteria was the more durable 30mil).

[Doug Shepard]

The veneersupplies.com poly bags are actually 20 mil, not 30 mil, so this will account for some price difference.
...



Joe has both both 20 and 30 mil bags online Greg, although the text is small. I have 3 of Joe's 30mil poly bags myself. Very durable.
...


My bad and I think Greg's right after re-checking. The 30 mil are Vinyl not Poly. OK. Aside from the fact I was comparing a 2'x'4' to a 49"x49" bag, that explains a bit of the difference.

[Mike Spanbauer]

You're right Doug. I edited my post to remove the confusing link to any who are merely following along here on the forum.

cheers,

Mike

["Jacob Robinson"]

I just built a simple one at work I use a 5'x12' piece of particle board and a sheet of formica

I just took a v-groove router bit and made a grid system to get the air out seems to work great we are laying up a lot of sapele panels right now and the large capacity has saved a lot of time

I can take some pictures if your interested

[Doug Shepard]

Resurrectin my own thread here, but I picked up the Excel5 setup a couple months back but it's remained in the box to date while I wrapped up a couple of other things. I've got tomorrow off and was going to pick up something to make a platen with (looks like melamine is probably a good way to go) and also to mount the pump to. But in re-reading the info on
http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/getting-started.htm it mentions info on the platen setup. What's the best way to go? Making both a bottom and top platen or using the breathable mesh on top that the site mentions? I'm not ready to try actually using the vac press yet, but just trying to get the system put together and everything I need lined up and ready to go.

[Dewey Torres]

Doug,
Just go to HD and grab a 2ft by 4ft melamine and cut it in half. Take your table saw and set the fence for 1 inch. Score the 1/8" deep cut, turn it, ...all 4 sides and then re-set the fence for 2" repeat, repeat all the way until you get to the middle for the top and bottom platen and call it a day.

Caveat:
If you plan to do curved work right away, get the mesh. Otherwise just go with the platen as you will need both over time anyway.

[Doug Shepard]

OK - Roger Willco. 2 Platens it is since flat work is what's on the horizon. But now I've got another question since you mentioned cutting a 2x4 piece in half. My bag is 2x4 so wouldn't I want both pieces closer to the bag size? I realize the 2x4 bag size is a flat measurement and I'll need to allow some extra for 2 thicknesses of platen plus the glue-up thickness. But platens of 2x2 seem like a lot of excess bag. Or doesn't it really matter?

[Chris Padilla]

Doug,

You may wish to make platens that maximize the capacity of your bag or you may wish to custom-size the platens for your project. Melamine is a great choice...glue just pops right off of it. Check my Tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92396) project...I'm doing lottsa vacuum pressing.

Just keep in mind that when you press, you want the bag at its sealed edges to NOT be stressed. In other words, there needs to be some excess so the vacuum pull isn't trying to rip open the seams.

I say go for it in getting the breather mesh as well. It just gives you more options but for flat work, the platens are usually better. One pain with platens is if you are pressing lottsa different-sized panels. If your platens are too big, you'll need to support them so the press doesn't suck down on them and bust them (DAMHIKT!!) or you'll need to cut the platen down so if fits your panel more closely. Sometimes, it is nice to have the breather mesh available as it can be your top platen BUT, that can be a problem too if as you'll need to size your veneer very, very close to the the size of the substrate because the mesh can pull down around the edges and break your veneer (DAMHIKT, too!) and ruin the panel.

Lottsa fun veneering! I'm totally digging it! :D

[Doug Shepard]

Well I did pick up 2 2x4 pieces of melamine this morning. Figured I go for something like 20"x36" and see how those go into the bag, then nibble away some more if it seems too snug in the bag. Then I'll start cutting some grooves after that.
I managed to get the unit assermbled this morning but not without a snag. No amount of adjusting the metering screw could get the meter to budge from 26" instead of the 18" that the instructions recommend. In the process one half of the (soft brass) screw snapped away so now there's no screwdriver slot for adjusting. I'll have to see about getting a replacement. After getting the hose istalled though, I notice if I put my finger over the end the meter reads a steady 19" so I'm not sure what's up with following the install instructions and why it's fixed at 26". I'll have to contact them and see wassup.
I've also found the perfect weight loss program for anybody with WIDE LOAD problems. Even sitting 2 ft from my space heater this morning, the -9F temps meant I froze my .... off.:D I'm thawing out a bit after lunch and will go out and cut the platens later.

[Dewey Torres]

Doug,
Chris got you right on track. My response would have been the same. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Once you get it going it's very low maint.

[Mike Henderson]

If you want to go cheap, make a couple of torsion boxes. I can take a picture of mine to show you what they look like if you're interested. Much cheaper than a vacuum bag and works well on flat work. Later, if you keep doing veneer, you can buy a pump and bag.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I've seen many people invest a lot of money in a vacuum pressing system and never use it more than once or twice. A low cost alternative is torsion boxes - since you're a woodworker, you can make them yourself for little money.

I have a set of "large" torsion boxes, and a set of "small" torsion boxes. Here's how you use them.

First, put down some spacers - this is so that you'll be able to get your clamps under the lower box.
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Then lay one box on the spacers, and put down some plastic to prevent any glue from getting to the boxes. If you don't have anything else, plastic garbage bags work well. I would not use torsion boxes this large to do such small work, but I'm just illustrating how things are done.
107165

Although it hard to see, I have cork glued to the faces of the torsion boxes. This is to spread the pressure over the work. Sometimes you have different thickness veneer, or a mound of veneer tape. Instead of cork, you can use thick cloth, like duck cloth (sail cloth).

Then put plastic on top of the work.
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Put your other torsion box on top of the work. These torsion boxes weigh about 42 pounds each so I can handle them myself, but it's nicer to have someone help.
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Finally, use clamps and clamp all around. I only show clamps on one half of the torsion boxes - you have to imagine clamps all around.
107168

When finished, remove the clamps and your work.

[Mike Henderson]

I put handles on the end of the torsion boxes to make them easier to handle.
107169

I also have a set of smaller torsion boxes I use for small work.
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If you're interested in how these are constructed, post and I'll put more info up.

Mike

[Dewey Torres]

Mike,
I think these are good to know how to build even if you do own a vac press.
I know how to build them but request you post instructions for those who are interested. We have lots of lurkers who are afraid to ask...and will benefit none the less.

[Dan Lee]

I switched from top plattens to mesh and have had great results. I got tired of making different size top plattens for differnt size pieces. Also I tape mesh to the underside of the bottom platten that way I don't need to score all those grooves for air flow course you only have to score them once for a platten that matches the bag size
Dan

[Doug Shepard]

...I say go for it in getting the breather mesh as well. ...


I've got nothing curved on the immediate horizon but that's one of the reasons I decided to spring for a vac press (plus also possibly using it for doing bent lamination clamping). So after playing with my bleeder valve enigma and realizing I probably caused this myself, I decided to go ahead and order some mesh since I was ordering a replacement valve anyway. That Tansu project looks pretty cool BTW.
But in re-reading everything a couple times I spot this:
12. Attach the bleeder valve to the vacuum valve. Do not over-tighten this fitting as it will cause the bleeder to malfunction.
Well it looks like I did manage to miss this and overtighten, and it appears it's permanently malfunctioned as backing it out doesn't appear to fix it, so....

Mike
That torsion box setup looks pretty nice. I did have a low cost alternative using press frames and platens
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=16471&d=1109434141
but wan't entirely satisfied with it. It's been a quite a while since doing any veneering work but I've wanted to get back to it for a while, especially since getting a better BS where I can slice my own.

[Doug Shepard]

...
But in re-reading everything a couple times I spot this:
12. Attach the bleeder valve to the vacuum valve. Do not over-tighten this fitting as it will cause the bleeder to malfunction.
Well it looks like I did manage to miss this and overtighten, and it appears it's permanently malfunctioned as backing it out doesn't appear to fix it, so....
...


Hey wait a second:confused: I lifted that from their online instructions. I just noticed that the hardcopy version that I was following and included in the box does not have that 2nd sentence, just 12. Attach the bleeder valve to the vacuum valve. So I didn't miss anything. I think I'm going to see about getting credited for that replacement part I ordered last night.

I also discoved that apparently HD measures their melamine/MDF in the rough, straight from the MDF tree prior to jointing/planing. Both pieces clearly labeled 24x48 were exactly 23-3/4 x 47-3/4". I never did thaw out yesterday for round 2 in the shop so didn't get the platens cut until this morning. Ended up eyeballing the bag up against the melamine and decided to go with 18x36 but decided to trim off another inch after sliding both in the bag so 17x36. So I'm on the defrost cycle again but it's only -4F today, so there's hope yet for another hour or two in the shop today.

[Chris Padilla]

All the MDF I've picked up from HD is always oversized: 4'x8' is actually 49" x 97". I haven't bought any melamine from them so I don't know if those are oversized as well.

I have a feeling this is done because MDF's edges are easy to ding/dent due to its density.

On a side note, I managed to put a hole in my nice bag last night! :( :mad:

Using the breather mesh, I had too sharp an edge on my 1/16" walnut veneer and it poked a small hole through eventually. This is one danger in using brether mesh on flat work if you're a dork like me. ;) The hole isn't really any big deal--the press just cycled a bit more than usual. I put a small patch on it. You may wish to pick up that vinyl cement/glue, HH-66, that veneersupplies sells just in case. In a pinch, packing tape works, too.