Cedar OK for a small dining table?

[Anthony Watson]

I want to build a small dining table for my in-laws (30"x48"). Just your basic four square legs and four rails connected with mortise and tenon joints. Top fastened from below. I've never done mortise and tenon joints before, so I thought this would be a great project to practice (learn) new skills.

However, we really like the look of cedar, and I have used it for a variety of projects like the sides of their vanity cabinet. But I'm curious if it would be strong enough for a mortise and tenon table like this? And would it be crazy to have a soft wood like cedar as a table top? I plan on applying three or four coats of a glossy oil based poly, but I don't know if that would be enough to keep it from denting every time you set a glass down?

Assuming cedar is just not acceptable for this application, would regular poplar from the home center work OK? I've used that wood for many projects also and once stained and poly'ed it looks rather nice, and doesn't cost a fortune.

My only real wood options are those I can find at the home centers (cedar, pine, poplar, hemlock, and oak). I've never really cared for the look of oak, and it's the most expensive of the bunch, but maybe it's the best option for this project?

Thanks,

Anthony

[John Michaels]

Cedar would be too soft for a dining table in my opinion. What about eastern maple, that is hard and strong. Why only stores like Lowe's for your wood purchases?

[Dave Rose]

If you don't have any lumber yards in your area, you could try some cabinet shops. Sometimes they will sell lumber to the public.

I think Cedar is to soft / weak for a table.

[Frank Drew]

Anthony,

In thick enough section cedar would be strong enough for mortise and tenon joinery but I agree with John that many cedars could be a little too soft for the table top. Eastern red cedar could work in terms of hardness but it's not that easy to find completely clear stock, and might not be available where you shop.

I'm not wild about poplar as a show wood although it would be reasonably durable in that application.

I think a dining table provides an occasion to showcase some really attractive wood so I'd suggest you broaden your search if at all possible.

[Anthony Watson]

As I suspected, you all confirmed cedar is too soft for my application.

We don't have any local hardwood suppliers, unless I want to drive an hour or more each way (I don't). The only local one I knew of closed up a few years ago.

More important, my woodworking skills are still on the basic side, so I don't really want to spend a lot of money on a good quality hardwood only to screw it up. :) It's a lot less painful to destroy a $5 pine board than a $40 oak board. :)

Also, my in-laws are... let's say "cluttered". Anything I build will quickly be buried under their junk and probably won't be visible anyway. That may be a good thing with my skills. :) But they need a smaller table and I thought this would be a fun practice project, rather than going out and buying a premade table.

I will estimate my lumber needs, then shop around to see what kind of prices I'm looking at.

Thanks guys for your input!

Anthony

[David DeCristoforo]

My issue would be more along the lines of the aromatic quality of cedar being not exactly what you would want at the dining table. The wood is soft and that might be an issue but it's really not that much softer than pine and there is no shortage of pine tables.

[Steve Schoene]

Before you decide there are no hardwood sellers near you, go to www.woodfinder.com (http://www.woodfinder.com) where you can search by distance from your zip code. You might be surprised.

[David Keller NC]

Anthony - I've a different take on this. I don't know where you live, but if you can get eastern red cedar (which is not actually a cedar at all but a juniper), it will make a fine table. There are a number of antiques made in the Charleston area that are made of this wood and have survived a couple of centuries. Western cedar, however, might well be a bit too soft.

However, don't let this stop you. A table, presuming it does indeed have mortise and tenon joints, reasonably substantial legs, and an apron is a pretty strong structural form. Not impossible, but it'd be pretty tough to actually cause it to fail structurally.

What wood you use for the top is really more a consideration of aesthetics and durability. Harder woods like oak, maple, walnut, and cherry will get far fewer dings in it over a few years than softer woods like poplar, pine (especially eastern white pine) and cedar.

[Greg Hines, MD]

My issue would be more along the lines of the aromatic quality of cedar being not exactly what you would want at the dining table. The wood is soft and that might be an issue but it's really not that much softer than pine and there is no shortage of pine tables.


My wife inherited a pine table, which we had in our dining room for a while, but now it is in the attic, because it is so soft that we could not use it. She can still show me where someone, years ago, signed some receipt on it, and the impression is still there. I would worry about cedar for the same reason.

Doc

[Cody Colston]

I work with Eastern Red Cedar (Aromatic Cedar) a lot and structurally, it would be plenty strong for a dining table using M&T joints. I've made a lot of outdoor furniture from it and it holds up fine, even exposed to the weather. The aromatic part is not an issue either once finish is applied.

Being soft, however, the top will get dented pretty easily unless you apply an epoxy bar finish or something equally hard over it. I'd also put a seal coat of shellac down first as the oils in Cedar supposedly can mess up a finish although I've personally not experienced it.

[Mike Schueler]

I have a similar situation to you, Anthony. For fun, I tried the wood finder web thing and found two places within 50 miles of here (31 miles was closest), but one had a $50 "upcharge" for less than 100 bf, wholesale only; the other has a 200 bf minimum.

The wood supplier I usually use wasn't on this list, which it takes me about 1 1/4 hr drive to get to, and this is with a V-8 F250 that doesn't understand fuel cost.

I am a bit of an amateur as well; but I can tell you it's worth the drive. I find it easier to work with the joints I am practicing with stuff that actually keeps the edges and lines instead of brusing so very easily. It was a LOT more frustrating for me to practice on pine after pine, with gumming up my cutting edges, and ... well, enough.

Also, "through the grapevine", there is apparently a mystical old guy that lives in the nearby 'burbs that has a lumber mill in his backyard and will often sell a bunch of good stuff for $30, a story, and a beer. I plan to check that out soon but remember there may be lots of alternatives out there.

(BTW I live in north central florida -- anyone know any contacts :))

[Dave Avery]

Try buying wood online. If you have a jointer and planer (or just a planer and a sled) you can get rough lumber and it can be delivered relatively inexpensively. Try www.niagaralumber.com. Best. Dave.

[Tony Bilello]

Mike's statement ..."I am a bit of an amateur as well; but I can tell you it's worth the drive. I find it easier to work with the joints I am practicing with stuff that actually keeps the edges and lines instead of brusing so very easily. It was a LOT more frustrating for me to practice on pine after pine, with gumming up my cutting edges, and ... well, enough."
Here is something similar to what I posted on a different woodworking site.

Learning woodworking with construction grade pine is not a good idea. I’m speaking of furniture making in specific. When I first started woodworking, I used pine from the lumber yards and scraps from crates and pallets. I had read quite a few books and nothing worked as it should have. Even simple shelving units were impossible to assemble. The sides of a shelf unit would cup after I made my Dado cuts and the shelves would warp or twist and then not fit into the dado's. Sound familiar?
I was brand new to woodworking and didn't have anyone to teach me. I also did not have much spare change and didn't want to invest in the 'good' stuff. After several months of struggling with projects, I saw an ad in the newspaper for woodworking classes in the local art center. Soooooo, I signed up to figure out what I was doing wrong.
Now here I am with good tools and a good instructor so I felt confident that he would not allow me to screw up. I drew up some plans for a simple writing desk and bought some good quality oak from a hardwood dealer in town, and guess what? Cutting straight lines on a table saw without pinching and warping. My boards cut and planed nicely. They glued up with no problems - nice and flat. The aprons had tenons that fit perfectly into the mortised legs. None of the dimensions of lumber had changed before my very eyes like it did with my construction grade pine. It seems like my woodworking skills improved a hundredfold over night. THEY DIDNT. It was the wood, not me! I had been doing everything by the book before the class and applied the same techniques during the class.
There is a reason why the choicest wood cost more. It's not just the looks, it’s the overall quality.
If you really can’t afford oak or any of the better hardwoods, use MDF to practice on. It is stable and machines predictably. Then you will know if the problem is with the wood or with your technique.

Hope I dont get flamed as badly on here as I did on the other site.

[Pat Germain]

My experience was similar to Tony's. I completely agree. Trying to work with home center lumber for furniture is typically an exercise in futility. Whether it's pine, cedar or even home center oak, the quality is going to be lackluster at best. This isn't a bust on the home centers. Their market is construction and renovations, not furniture building. Therfore, their wood products are high moisture and low quality.

I think Steve has a good suggestion. Marc Spagnuolo recently did a segment about internet purchased wood. His experience was very positive. I think Internet lumber is a good option for Anthony.

[Anthony Watson]

Thanks for the input everyone...

I have built a lot of projects using standard #2 pine from Lowes and Home Depot. For example, I bought 1x6 or 1x8 boards, ripped them into 2" strips, and selectively cut out knots and other blemishes to get basically clear lumber. Those worked great for building the face frames and door frames for our kitchen cabinets. I recycled the T&G pine we had leftover from our bedroom walls for the door panels, ripping the T&G off, gluing up, and planing flat. I've had no problems, other than a couple of doors that warped slightly. Not bad considering I built dozens of doors for our house.

I also used poplar from the home centers for many projects, including my office desk and wall cabinets, and the entertainment center in our living room. I usually use birch plywood from home centers also, and once everything is stained and finished, we've been very happy with the results.

As for writing leaving imprints on a table, we have a maple table that I got used with the same writing marks, and the birch plywood of my office desk shows them too. It seems like it would be easy to leave marks in any wood by writing (?) so I always use a mat or tablet of some kind to write on.

Anyway, as to a hardwood supplier, the wood search turned up fewer sources than I already knew about. But those are all over an hour away, and in the middle of the city, which I try to avoid (especially when I'm pulling my trailer). But, I did learn of a place here in town yesterday that is supposed to sell hardwoods. I'm planning to check them out when I can find the time.

Online sources may be an option too, but they're probably not cost effective for me.

If I do build the table, it will not only be a chance to try my hand at mortise and tenon joints for the first time, but it may give me a chance to try higher quality lumber as well. It would be interesting to see how different lumber works for projects.

Thanks,

Anthony