Festool square cuts; I love my Festool MFT table…BUT…

[Daniel Hillmer]

I’ve had a Festool MFT 800 table and the TS 55 EQ saw for almost two years now. I love the saw and table combo, love their other tools, the table setup has many uses, saw is extremely versatile...

My only problem with the table is that no matter how hard I try, I can’t seem to get perfectly square AND repeatable cuts on plywood panels – 23 x 32 inch in that size range. I think I was able to do it a few times with an extreme amount of fiddling with a precision triangle, lining up the guide rail perpendicular to the fence, but it takes a lot of time and it seems after a while, it goes out of alignment, and then I have to spend a lot of time again getting the rail aligned perfectly. Most of the time I can get the corners pretty darn close to square, just not as square as I think I could with a good cabinet saw. Making accurate and repeatable angle cuts in large panels is also a problem. I’ve never owned a table saw so I have not been “tainted” yet about not being able to utilize the festool.

Anyway, I gave up on attaching the guide rail to the table and I went out and purchased a Pinnacle cabinet makers square, now I just cut a straight edge using the guide rail un attached to the table - laying it down on plywood, first I scribe a perpendicular line in plywood using the Pinnacle, lay the guide rail over the scribed line, and if I really take my time, I can get a perfectly square corner, but sometimes even that is not repeatable, it is more repeatable than were I to use the guide rail attached to the MFT and use the fence though. Either method takes a lot of time to get perfect.

I looked at the new MFT table which came out earlier this year at my local dealer, it looks beefed up a bit - a bit more stable, but I still don’t see how it can solve the repeatability problem. I keep thinking that extruded aluminum and MDF is no match for a cast iron table top and precision t-saw fence.

So It’s gotten to the point that I’m considering dropping another grand and purchasing a Grizzly G1023SL (http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Table-Saw-3-HP-Single-Phase-220V-Left-Tilt/G1023SL) table saw, and then just use the Festool as a panel saw and build table, sanding table, etc. But I want to exhaust all possibilities first with the MFT to see if I can get repeatable square cuts somehow, either by using a different technique, maybe retrofitting the table somehow, maybe I’m doing something wrong, before I drop another grand.

Has anyone actually been able to get perfectly square AND repeatable square cuts on plywood cabinet panels with the MFT 800? Either with the standard Festool accessories, or retro fitting the table somehow?

If so, howdja do it?

[Dave Avery]

Daniel,

I agree - have an older version of the MFT and it's my least favorite Festool purchase. Hopefully somebody smarter than us will chime in...... Best. Dave.

[Dave Falkenstein]

This might seem way too obvious, but... I have a MFT1080. When using the guide rail on the MFT, are you setting the guide rail firmly into the positioning "pin" on the front rail attachment? I set the rear rail height first, according the the thickness of the material I am working on. Then I loosen the vertical adjustment on the front attachment and raise the front of the rail with the positioning pin into the rail slot and above the work surface. Then keeping pressure on the rail and attachment, lower the rail to the work surface. If you don't do something like I described, the rail can move horizontally a little bit, throwing off your square cuts. I almost never move the rail from the square position, and I set it square using a large, thick, accurate square, and it stays that way. I'm satisfied that my square cuts are accurate and repeatable. There are several discussions at the Festool Owners Group forum on this same subject.

[Bruce Benjamin]

You love the table but you can't make square cuts? This is like saying you love your new car but you can't get it to make right hand turns...And you put up with it for 2 years! :confused: There is another popular brand of saw guide that some people are adapting to their festool stuff in order to get really good results with little effort. If you can't make what you have work you might want to look in that direction...Isn't making square cuts sort of a requirement and a very basic task? Good luck and I hope you get it figured out.

Bruce



I’ve had a Festool MFT 800 table and the TS 55 EQ saw for almost two years now. I love the saw and table combo, love their other tools, the table setup has many uses, saw is extremely versatile...

My only problem with the table is that no matter how hard I try, I can’t seem to get perfectly square AND repeatable cuts on plywood panels – 23 x 32 inch in that size range. I think I was able to do it a few times with an extreme amount of fiddling with a precision triangle, lining up the guide rail perpendicular to the fence, but it takes a lot of time and it seems after a while, it goes out of alignment, and then I have to spend a lot of time again getting the rail aligned perfectly. Most of the time I can get the corners pretty darn close to square, just not as square as I think I could with a good cabinet saw. Making accurate and repeatable angle cuts in large panels is also a problem. I’ve never owned a table saw so I have not been “tainted” yet about not being able to utilize the festool.

Anyway, I gave up on attaching the guide rail to the table and I went out and purchased a Pinnacle cabinet makers square, now I just cut a straight edge using the guide rail un attached to the table - laying it down on plywood, first I scribe a perpendicular line in plywood using the Pinnacle, lay the guide rail over the scribed line, and if I really take my time, I can get a perfectly square corner, but sometimes even that is not repeatable, it is more repeatable than were I to use the guide rail attached to the MFT and use the fence though. Either method takes a lot of time to get perfect.

I looked at the new MFT table which came out earlier this year at my local dealer, it looks beefed up a bit - a bit more stable, but I still don’t see how it can solve the repeatability problem. I keep thinking that extruded aluminum and MDF is no match for a cast iron table top and precision t-saw fence.

So It’s gotten to the point that I’m considering dropping another grand and purchasing a Grizzly G1023SL (http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Table-Saw-3-HP-Single-Phase-220V-Left-Tilt/G1023SL) table saw, and then just use the Festool as a panel saw and build table, sanding table, etc. But I want to exhaust all possibilities first with the MFT to see if I can get repeatable square cuts somehow, either by using a different technique, maybe retrofitting the table somehow, maybe I’m doing something wrong, before I drop another grand.

Has anyone actually been able to get perfectly square AND repeatable square cuts on plywood cabinet panels with the MFT 800? Either with the standard Festool accessories, or retro fitting the table somehow?

If so, howdja do it?

[Daniel Hillmer]

Hi there Dave,

Oh first of all I made a mistake, I own the MFT 1080 table not MFT 800. Actually I own two MFT 1080 tables tied together end to end with the MFT connectors.

In answer to your above question, yes I do all of the above that you suggested, exactly as you describe, when ever I set the guide rail up for new projects.

I think a main issue with the MFT table, is in my situation, there are times when I want to use the table as a panel saw for cutting up 4 x 8 sheets of plywood into smaller chunks so I can cut out my cabinet panels. Or as a build table or a sanding table, or to do pocket hole joinery, etc.

When doing this, I often have to remove the guide rail from the table because it's in the way when I lay a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood down. There are also other times when I need to remove the guide rail for other projects because it gets in the way. So sometimes I don't have the luxury of never removing the guide rail from the square position (as you do), and in those situations, if I'm going from one job to another, the setup time is long and tedious to constantly have to square up the guide rail.

Even were I to leave the rail where it is, it's always a pain getting that rail perfectly square to the fence, sometimes I have to make three of four attempts to get it square and half the time it comes out square and the other times it does not. And that pin you are talking about, there is a slight amount of leeway between that and the guide rail channel, not much but maybe enough to have the rail slip slightly, not sure if that’s a factor though.

The height differential between the table top and guide rail also makes it difficult to place a precision square against the fence and the rail, because the rail rests on top of the fence and that causes most decent triangles to not be thick enough to butt up against the back side of the rail when squaring it up.

I guess why I bought the MFT table is because it is billed as a multi function table, I figured I could use it as a table saw, a sanding table, a build table, etc, which theoretically I can, it’s just that the setup time is extremely long when switching between jobs when going from table saw mode to other modes, and If I’m going to want to use it as a table saw and I have to leave it in that configuration in order to get quick, repeatable results, then it does not become a multi function table. So I may as well buy a table saw and use the MFT as not a table saw, but for other projects, if I can't solve this problem. Which is fine really it's a great table. But if I can solve my problem without spending another grand, that would be great.

So I guess I'm looking for a sure fire way, if it’s possible, to quickly set up the guide rail on the MFT 1080 square, very quickly if possible, and without need to having to make several test cuts to make sure the rail is square to the fence. If I could find a way to do that I’d not buy a table saw.

[Daniel Hillmer]

There is another popular brand of saw guide that some people are adapting to their festool stuff in order to get really good results with little effort. If you can't make what you have work you might want to look in that direction......Isn't making square cuts sort of a requirement and a very basic task? Good luck and I hope you get it figured out.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce - What's the other brand of saw guide I can adapt to the Festool??? I'm really interested!!!

[Mike Goetzke]

Dan - First off do you trim a fresh edge on the ply to start? I have found the edge from the store can be quite a bit off.

You should be able to incorporate the features I have on my table on yours to cut square panels. At the near end I have a continuous squaring fence. I use a square to line my guide rail as close as possible to this squaring fence. I use the 5-cut method to fine tune it. Then I butt my rip fence against the squaring fence and use the rail as a guide to cut the consumable end of the rip fence. Now if I remove the rail I can use the rip fence to re-set it. Takes a bit of time to set it up the first time but after that you are done:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/EZ%20Smart/PBB/IMG_2423.jpg

[Daniel Hillmer]

Yes that's the first thing I do, trim a fresh edge from my plywood.

WOW that's really amazing! I take it that you designed this yourself?
Or is it commercially available either in kit form with plans or already built?

It's a great idea. I’d have to do some serious modifications to my MFT table though especially for the squaring fence to make it work. I could see using the Festool guide rail though and adapt it to your table. Would make more sense to just start from scratch for the table itself.

Question, what is the 5 cut method?

[Bruce Benjamin]

Thanks Bruce - What's the other brand of saw guide I can adapt to the Festool??? I'm really interested!!!

Dan, go to the Eurekazone forum in the Manufacturers section of Sawmill Creek. The brand is EZ Smart and the pics that Mike posted are of the EZ products. Give the forum a visit, ask any and all questions you have and you will get good, honest answers. Yes, festool people are always welcome there and there's more and more of them all the time. :cool: Many are starting to combine the festool stuff they have with some EZ stuff to make it work better. Some are then selling off some of the festool stuff and buy the EZ tools. Some are keeping what they got and just combining the two. Either way, you're welcome to the forum, even if you never buy any EZ tools at all.

Bruce

[Daniel Hillmer]

Dan, go to the Eurekazone forum in the Manufacturers section of Sawmill Creek. The brand is EZ Smart and the pics that Mike posted are of the EZ products. Give the forum a visit, ask any and all questions you have and you will get good, honest answers. Yes, festool people are always welcome there and there's more and more of them all the time. :cool: Many are starting to combine the festool stuff they have with some EZ stuff to make it work better. Some are then selling off some of the festool stuff and buy the EZ tools. Some are keeping what they got and just combining the two. Either way, you're welcome to the forum, even if you never buy any EZ tools at all.

Bruce


Wow just checked it out thanks much. I'll investigate.

Wish I had known about this set up two years ago when I bought all my Festool stuff.

[Mike Goetzke]

Yes that's the first thing I do, trim a fresh edge from my plywood.

WOW that's really amazing! I take it that you designed this yourself?
Or is it commercially available either in kit form with plans or already built?

It's a great idea. I’d have to do some serious modifications to my MFT table though especially for the squaring fence to make it work. I could see using the Festool guide rail though and adapt it to your table. Would make more sense to just start from scratch for the table itself.

Question, what is the 5 cut method?

I would think you could mod your set-up without much addition/investment.

Here is a link to one definition of the 5-cut method:

5-cut method (http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/TheFiveSidedCut/TheFiveSidedCut.html)

[John Stevens]

Hi, Daniel. Over on the Festool Owners' Group forum someone posted a great method for squaring the MFT fence to the blade. The rows & columns of holes are CNC drilled at precisely 90 degrees. Simply align your guide rail with a column, then use an auxiliary fence aligned to a row.

If your guide rail doesn't stay in the same line when it's repositioned to different heights, check the owner's manual, because it gives a method for adjusting the MFT hardware to ensure it does this.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

[Wade Lippman]

It is a PITA to get square, but once I have it set, all my cuts are perfect.
Frankly, I don't see why they wouldn't be. Nothing is going to move.

I wonder if your sides aren't parallel. I once couldn't get it cut square, and surprise surprise.

[Rob Blaustein]

Daniel,


Don't despair--it is absolutely possible to repeatedly cut square pieces with your setup. As David mentioned, this is has been discussed a few times on the Festool Owner's Group site and I highly recommend searching around there as well as John Lucas's woodshopdemos.com site. I'll try to spell out how I do it, which is similar to the approach that others use. Although it is easy to have the expectation that this system should be easy and intuitive to use out of the box, I've found that there is a learning curve replete with tricks that are not spelled out in the manual (but can be learned from others). Aside from some techniques that I'll mention, there is one auxilliary item that makes this MUCH easier and David Falkenstein mentioned this too--a good sized piece of wood that you know to be perfectly rectangular. I use something like a 2' x 2.5 ' piece of 3/4" ply. Alternatives can be seen here (http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-sq-1.htm); the link is to John Lucas's site which, as I mentioned, has lots of good tips on using Festool equipment. The nice thing about the 3/4" ply is that it is thick and can rest against the rail and fence easily as described below.

Set up the two rail attachment pieces so that the rail, when lowered and resting in the 'locked' position, is fairly parallel to the side of the table. Use the holes in the table as a guide. It doesn't have to perfectly parallel since the key thing is that the rail and the fence be perpendicular.
Set up the fence so that it is close to perpendicular to the rail. Place your rectangular piece of wood against the rail, then run it up against the fence. Change the angle of the fence a few degrees as needed so that both the fence and rail are each butting up against the two perpendiclar edges. At this point the rail and fence should be perpendicular. Now comes a crucial step--you must lock down the fence using that knob that simultaneously attaches to both the fence and the aluminum exgtrusion on the side of the table. Don't rely on the index pins on the fence, they have too much slop.
You can now adust the height of the rails as needed. There is one important tip that David mentioned in his post and it has to do with making sure the slot in the rail 'snaps' into the tab on that piece (not sure what it's called) when you lower it. Here's a related tip, but it is a little hard to describe. It is useful if, after attaching the pieces that hold that rail to the table, you end up having to apply a little bit of lateral tension in order to have the rail fit into the tab. That tends to avoid the slop that David mentioned.
Hope this is clear and that it helps. As to getting a piece of wood that is rectangular--that's another topic. Google 5-cut method and you'll find discussions of this. I've also used a steel 'machinist' square by ENCO that is about 1/2" thick and 8" by 18" but when I go to the ENCO site I see it has been discontinued.

Good luck!

--Rob

[Paul Johnstone]

Daniel,

If you are a pretty serious hobbyist and have the room, I'd highly recommend getting a table saw. I'm sure there's a way to make the circular saw and guide work. But for repeatable cuts, I don't see how it's going to any easier or more accurate.

Plus, a table saw is useful for so much more.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Daniel,

If you are a pretty serious hobbyist and have the room, I'd highly recommend getting a table saw. I'm sure there's a way to make the circular saw and guide work. But for repeatable cuts, I don't see how it's going to any easier or more accurate.

Plus, a table saw is useful for so much more.

The EZ Smart Repeaters make repeatable cuts as easy as using a tablesaw and fence. I should know since I have both. And the EZ tools, (When combined with the proper circular saw and router) allow for practically everything the TS will do and some things the TS won't do, including turning a router in to what essentially amounts to a manual CNC machine.

Bruce

[Daniel Hillmer]

It is a PITA to get square, but once I have it set, all my cuts are perfect.
Frankly, I don't see why they wouldn't be. Nothing is going to move.

I wonder if your sides aren't parallel. I once couldn't get it cut square, and surprise surprise.

By "sides", do you mean the frame of the table, i.e., the extruded aluminum frame in which the MDF table top is mounted into?

[Daniel Hillmer]

Hi, Daniel. Over on the Festool Owners' Group forum someone posted a great method for squaring the MFT fence to the blade. The rows & columns of holes are CNC drilled at precisely 90 degrees. Simply align your guide rail with a column, then use an auxiliary fence aligned to a row.

If your guide rail doesn't stay in the same line when it's repositioned to different heights, check the owner's manual, because it gives a method for adjusting the MFT hardware to ensure it does this.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

Thanks much John I'll check it out...looking now. I am assuming that you mean above to align the adhesive strip on the saw guide rail to a row of holes, and then align the fence to row perpendicular to the guide row...is this correct?

I think I tried that once long ago, I'll try it again.

BTW, do you have a link to the above described method in the Festool owners group?

[Daniel Hillmer]

This might seem way too obvious, but... I have a MFT1080. When using the guide rail on the MFT, are you setting the guide rail firmly into the positioning "pin" on the front rail attachment? I set the rear rail height first, according the the thickness of the material I am working on. Then I loosen the vertical adjustment on the front attachment and raise the front of the rail with the positioning pin into the rail slot and above the work surface. Then keeping pressure on the rail and attachment, lower the rail to the work surface. If you don't do something like I described, the rail can move horizontally a little bit, throwing off your square cuts. I almost never move the rail from the square position, and I set it square using a large, thick, accurate square, and it stays that way. I'm satisfied that my square cuts are accurate and repeatable. There are several discussions at the Festool Owners Group forum on this same subject.


Dave, when you say "large, thick, accurate square", what brand/manufacturer do you have? I was looking to purchase a large and thick square last year, and I could not find one. I purchased a set of Pinnacle triangles a while ago from Woodcraft, they are fine quality but not thick enough when I check for squareness of the rail against the fence, not thick enough to account for the height of the rail over the fence. They butt up against the fence but only barely make it up to the height of the rail, not high enough for an accurate check. The plastic or aluminum triangles you buy at Home Depot don’t go up that high either.

Sometimes I like to set the height of the guide rail for the thickness of the material, then before I cut, I would like to check the squareness of the rail against the fence, and if the rail is up high, it’s impossible to check the rail against the fence due to the rail height. So thus far, I have only been able to check and set squareness of the rail when in the lowest position using the pinnacles which barely make it up to the rail and sometimes they don't, and then when I increase height I have to have faith that raising the rail does not throw off the rail squareness.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Daniel,


Don't despair--it is absolutely possible to repeatedly cut square pieces with your setup. As David mentioned, this is has been discussed a few times on the Festool Owner's Group site and I highly recommend searching around there as well as John Lucas's woodshopdemos.com site. I'll try to spell out how I do it, which is similar to the approach that others use. Although it is easy to have the expectation that this system should be easy and intuitive to use out of the box, I've found that there is a learning curve replete with tricks that are not spelled out in the manual (but can be learned from others). Aside from some techniques that I'll mention, there is one auxilliary item that makes this MUCH easier and David Falkenstein mentioned this too--a good sized piece of wood that you know to be perfectly rectangular. I use something like a 2' x 2.5 ' piece of 3/4" ply. Alternatives can be seen here (http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-sq-1.htm); the link is to John Lucas's site which, as I mentioned, has lots of good tips on using Festool equipment. The nice thing about the 3/4" ply is that it is thick and can rest against the rail and fence easily as described below.

Set up the two rail attachment pieces so that the rail, when lowered and resting in the 'locked' position, is fairly parallel to the side of the table. Use the holes in the table as a guide. It doesn't have to perfectly parallel since the key thing is that the rail and the fence be perpendicular.
Set up the fence so that it is close to perpendicular to the rail. Place your rectangular piece of wood against the rail, then run it up against the fence. Change the angle of the fence a few degrees as needed so that both the fence and rail are each butting up against the two perpendiclar edges. At this point the rail and fence should be perpendicular. Now comes a crucial step--you must lock down the fence using that knob that simultaneously attaches to both the fence and the aluminum exgtrusion on the side of the table. Don't rely on the index pins on the fence, they have too much slop.
You can now adust the height of the rails as needed. There is one important tip that David mentioned in his post and it has to do with making sure the slot in the rail 'snaps' into the tab on that piece (not sure what it's called) when you lower it. Here's a related tip, but it is a little hard to describe. It is useful if, after attaching the pieces that hold that rail to the table, you end up having to apply a little bit of lateral tension in order to have the rail fit into the tab. That tends to avoid the slop that David mentioned.

Hope this is clear and that it helps. As to getting a piece of wood that is rectangular--that's another topic. Google 5-cut method and you'll find discussions of this. I've also used a steel 'machinist' square by ENCO that is about 1/2" thick and 8" by 18" but when I go to the ENCO site I see it has been discontinued.

Good luck!

--Rob

Thanks so much Rob for the info. A couple of concerns, in the above link you provided, I checked it out and on this page - http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-sq-3.htm where he describes the easy method for making parallel cuts with the two steel rules and rafter stops, it looks good, but from the photos there I don’t see how she is making the two rules paralell to each other, in order to assure the saw guide rail is parallel to the other edge of material – how is that accomplished?

My other concern with using a perfectly square piece of plywood to square the rail to the fence, is the stability of the material. As it gets moist the squareness can go off a bit and affect squareness.

Also, you said above “Here's a related tip” – did you intend to post a link for the tip? I also read David’s tip about the pin, but it’s not exactly clear to me how to prevent the slop by applying some lateral tension in order to have the rail fit into the tab, can u or someone elaborate on that a bit more?

[Dave Falkenstein]

Dave, when you say "large, thick, accurate square", what brand/manufacturer do you have? I was looking to purchase a large and thick square last year, and I could not find one. I purchased a set of Pinnacle triangles a while ago from Woodcraft, they are fine quality but not thick enough when I check for squareness of the rail against the fence, not thick enough to account for the height of the rail over the fence. They butt up against the fence but only barely make it up to the height of the rail, not high enough for an accurate check. The plastic or aluminum triangles you buy at Home Depot don’t go up that high either.

Sometimes I like to set the height of the guide rail for the thickness of the material, then before I cut, I would like to check the squareness of the rail against the fence, and if the rail is up high, it’s impossible to check the rail against the fence due to the rail height. So thus far, I have only been able to check and set squareness of the rail when in the lowest position using the pinnacles which barely make it up to the rail and sometimes they don't, and then when I increase height I have to have faith that raising the rail does not throw off the rail squareness.

Daniel - I use a square I bought from Enco (638-7628), but the Enco web site says that item has been discontinued.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=638-7628&PMPXNO=949950&PARTPG=INLMK3

You could call Enco and see if they have a new number for that type of square.

TS Aligner, Jr sells the same square that Enco used to sell, but for a much higher price tag. Look here and scroll down to the squares. The 8X18 square is $157.62 - Enco used to sell it for $53.78. I know it's the same manufacturer because I have a smaller square from TS Aligner and the big one fro Enco - identical.


You can make a large, thick, accurate square from a piece of MDF using the 3-4-5 method. You can make it as thick as needed, and it would be fine for shop use. Might be a bit awkward hauling it to a job site though.

Regarding the question you asked Rob about the pin - yes there is a slight amount of horizontal movement of the guide rail, even though the pin is bottomed out in the rail slot. I simply push the saw a bit to the right so the play of the rail on the pin is eliminated. Even forgetting to do that, my cuts are as square as I need them to be. Our medium here is wood, after all.

If you have not already done so, please read the related threads at the Festool Owners Group, where this topic has been discussed in great detail. (Links to other forums are not permitted here at SMC)

[Chris Padilla]

What are the main differences with the new MFT/3? Can one upgrade? I have the original 1080....

[Daniel Hillmer]

The EZ Smart Repeaters make repeatable cuts as easy as using a tablesaw and fence. I should know since I have both. And the EZ tools, (When combined with the proper circular saw and router) allow for practically everything the TS will do and some things the TS won't do, including turning a router in to what essentially amounts to a manual CNC machine.

Bruce

When I think of a CNC machine, I think of a (minimum) two axis machine in which a cutting or milling operation occurs. In this case it would either be a saw or router moving freely on a two axis arrangement. This would imply that in the case of the router for example, you would attach it to two ball bearing perpendicular rails, and the router could be moved freely as you direct the router across the material.

How do you see the EZ system as a manual cnc machine, if it only rides on one axis during the time of the cut (or maybe I am missing something)?

Because if you are only talking about one direction at a time, it just becomes a one axis machine and to me it’s not a manual CNC (someone please explain if I am missing something).

In fact, here are some instructions on how you can build your own three axis automatic CNC machine using a router, and the entire cost is around 600 bucks – it would seem for a few extra hundred bucks the unit could be enlarged to cover 4 x 8 panels and a larger router with a straight bit, but I could not imaging it costing that much over a grand, with only a need for more material and the bigger router…

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Three-Axis-CNC-Machine-Cheaply-and-/

[Daniel Hillmer]

Daniel - I use a square I bought from Enco (638-7628), but the Enco web site says that item has been discontinued.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=638-7628&PMPXNO=949950&PARTPG=INLMK3

You could call Enco and see if they have a new number for that type of square.

TS Aligner, Jr sells the same square that Enco used to sell, but for a much higher price tag. Look here and scroll down to the squares. The 8X18 square is $157.62 - Enco used to sell it for $53.78. I know it's the same manufacturer because I have a smaller square from TS Aligner and the big one fro Enco - identical.


You can make a large, thick, accurate square from a piece of MDF using the 3-4-5 method. You can make it as thick as needed, and it would be fine for shop use. Might be a bit awkward hauling it to a job site though.

Regarding the question you asked Rob about the pin - yes there is a slight amount of horizontal movement of the guide rail, even though the pin is bottomed out in the rail slot. I simply push the saw a bit to the right so the play of the rail on the pin is eliminated. Even forgetting to do that, my cuts are as square as I need them to be. Our medium here is wood, after all.

If you have not already done so, please read the related threads at the Festool Owners Group, where this topic has been discussed in great detail. (Links to other forums are not permitted here at SMC)

Thanks very much Dave.

[Daniel Hillmer]

What are the main differences with the new MFT/3? Can one upgrade? I have the original 1080....

That’s FINALLY a question I can answer - I own the MFT 1080 table myself.

I wanted to upgrade, buy the new fence and rail system and install it into my MFT 1080 table – because I actually have two MFT’s put a lot of money into them.

I actually saw the new table at my local dealer, they made a few improvements, the whole setup looks much beefier. Maybe easier to square parts, although I nave never used it myself yet.

Anyway I called Festool USA HQ in Indiana a few months ago when the new table came out, and the tech support guy said there is no way to install the new fence and rail system on the previous 1080 table. The extrusions for the new table - the table frame itself, is completely different and the old festool guide rail brackets will not fit on the new table, and vice versa.

I am not a little miffed at Festool about this, because you are forced to purchase a whole new table for their new rail and fence setup and that just turns me off about them. It shows that they are not interested in supporting their previous customers who have spent thousands of dollars and with a new improvement like this I feel that they have thrown me overboard by not making the new fence and rail retro - fittable.. Because I have about three grand into their equipment right now, which is a reason why I am seriously considering buying a Grizzly table saw instead of a new festool table.

I even asked them if I could purchase the new extruded aluminum rails seperately - the table frames from Festool, and retro fit my old table parts to the new rails, so the new fence would fit, and they would not even do that. It's like they want to punish their loyal customers, and I don't like companies who hate their customers.

I did examine the new table frame closely and it is definitely an improvement, it appears to be a dovetail design which would imply that it holds the fence and rail more securely and is more self aligning which is great. It almost seems Festool lifted the idea from the EZ Smart Square, which also uses a self aligning dovetail design. Yet one would think that if the new rail and fence system can not fit into the old 1080 non dovetail extrusions, that the most logical, helpful, cheapest, sensible and customer appreciative and grateful thing the people at Festool could have done for their LOYAL, PAYING CUSTOMERS, would have been to design an adapter jig, so that one could adapt the new fence and rail system to the old table. Either that, or at least make their new extrusions available to mft 1080 customers so we can retro fit. Obviously their loyal customer base is not worth it to the CEO of Festool over in Germany, for him to order his engineering staff to do either, and instead chose to gouge his loyal customers for the price of a entire new table, while continuing to engage in price fixing in the US by not allowing their dealers to sell below list price, which is at the very least (I believe) unethical.

Their system is billed as being modular and upgradable (that's what a direct, factory employed festool sales rep told me at the Detroit woodworking show in 2006 when I bought into the system), and they just proved the opposite by not making MFT3 parts interchangeable with the mft 1080. Even if I did not own the older table, I would be afraid to buy the new MFT table because what if they come out with a design improvement on their new table a year from now, and I really want it, and I can't retro fit it and have to buy a brand new entire table a year later to get a small improvement? I can either keep my old table and let it collect dust, or sell it on ebay (which cheapens the MFT product line to consumers and ultimately will harm festool reputation once they see dozens of MFT's on ebay). At least with a table saw, you can buy jigs and fixtures from either the TS maker or third parties, to improve performance and add various jobs you can do. But with an MFT, you are locked into and dependent on Festool for upgrades, and they seem to view their MFT line as a monopoly by not supporting their older MFT line by not making design improvements and parts interchangable or come up with interchangability solutions. It all seems extremely stingy when they come up with new ideas, you have to pay for the new idea plus several times over, to get the improvement, when it comes to the MFT tables.

They no doubt make fine power tools, and i'm thinking about buying their router, but I have definitely been turned off by the MFT line because of this. If I can find a router almost as good as the festool I will likely buy the cheaper one.

OK there, I got it off my chest I'll shut up now.

[Bruce Benjamin]

When I think of a CNC machine, I think of a (minimum) two axis machine in which a cutting or milling operation occurs. In this case it would either be a saw or router moving freely on a two axis arrangement. This would imply that in the case of the router for example, you would attach it to two ball bearing perpendicular rails, and the router could be moved freely as you direct the router across the material.

How do you see the EZ system as a manual cnc machine, if it only rides on one axis during the time of the cut (or maybe I am missing something)?

Because if you are only talking about one direction at a time, it just becomes a one axis machine and to me it’s not a manual CNC (someone please explain if I am missing something).

In fact, here are some instructions on how you can build your own three axis automatic CNC machine using a router, and the entire cost is around 600 bucks – it would seem for a few extra hundred bucks the unit could be enlarged to cover 4 x 8 panels and a larger router with a straight bit, but I could not imaging it costing that much over a grand, with only a need for more material and the bigger router…

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Three-Axis-CNC-Machine-Cheaply-and-/

Daniel, it sounds like you've never seen the EZ Smart SRK, (Smart Router Kit) before. It does have a two axis arrangement. It rides on the rail for one direction, (X?) and it also can slide in and out from the rails for the Y axis. The Z axis comes from the plunge router mechanism. I don't think you can make controlled simultaneous X, and Y movements at the same time but considering how good Dino, (EZ owner/inventor) is at coming up with new applications and functions for his tools, it may be possible soon. I've had the SRK for quite a while now and I think it's brilliant. But inventing isn't my thing and I haven't figured out how to make it move in a controlled manner in more than one axis at a time. Dino?

Here are some links to some pics to show you a little of what it's capable of... http://www.eurekazone.com/products/detail/srs.html This is the sale page for the SRK. I think the latest version has changed a little since these pics were taken but the function is essentially the same.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/EZ-Mortise-tenons-with-limit-stops
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/smart-router-system
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/Greek-key
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/system-of-capabilities
http://www.eurekazone.com/instructions/SRKinstructions.pdf These are the instructions...

So there ya go, X, Y, and Z axis movement in a very controlled manner. Easy to set up and easy to use. I'm not suggesting that this will take the place of an expensive CNC router in a production environment but it will do most of the same tasks for far less money.

Bruce

[Chris Padilla]

Their system is billed as being modular and upgradable (that's what a direct, factory employed festool sales rep told me at the Detroit woodworking show in 2006 when I bought into the system), and they just proved the opposite by not making MFT3 parts interchangeable with the mft 1080.

OK there, I got it off my chest I'll shut up now.

That is quite dissapointing to hear, Daniel and frankly I am quite surprised. What have folks at the FOG been saying about this? Do you visit there? I don't since I hate Yahoo! formats. I figured even it was upgradeable, it would be nearly cost-prohibitive like most of Festool's stuff but I would probably have done it anyway. I guess I'll just keep puttering along with my "vintage" 1080 MFT! :)

[Bruce Benjamin]

I even asked them if I could purchase the extruded aluminum rails seperately - the table frames from Festool, and retro fit my old table parts to the new rails, so the new fence would fit, and they would not even do that. It's like they want to punish their loyal customers, and I don't like companies who hate their customers or try to cheat them.


Their system is billed as being modular and upgradable (that's what a direct, factory employed festool sales rep told me at the Detroit woodworking show in 2006 when I bought into the system), and they just proved the opposite by not making MFT3 parts interchangeable with the mft 1080.

OK there, I got it off my chest I'll shut up now.

There is one company that offers complete compatibility between it's previous, current, and future tools/parts and they also offer free upgrades, (Or nearly free if there are significantly more parts involved). I don't want to be accused of being a salesman so I'll just give you the initials of the company...EZ ;):D

I'm not a festool owner but if what you say is true I'd be ticked off too. Before you give up on a guided saw/router system you should at least consider the festool competition. The even offer parts that work with the festool stuff. Many have gone this route. They even have a forum in the manufacturer's section here on SMC.

Bruce

[Peter Quadarella]

By the way, I think there is more than one person using a Festool MFT with some EZ parts, so perhaps you could hybridize to get what you are looking for. It might be worth a look if you are mostly satisfied with your rail system, and just need a fix to an issue.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Daniel, it sounds like you've never seen the EZ Smart SRK, (Smart Router Kit) before. It does have a two axis arrangement. It rides on the rail for one direction, (X?) and it also can slide in and out from the rails for the Y axis. The Z axis comes from the plunge router mechanism. I don't think you can make controlled simultaneous X, and Y movements at the same time but considering how good Dino, (EZ owner/inventor) is at coming up with new applications and functions for his tools, it may be possible soon. I've had the SRK for quite a while now and I think it's brilliant. But inventing isn't my thing and I haven't figured out how to make it move in a controlled manner in more than one axis at a time. Dino?

Here are some links to some pics to show you a little of what it's capable of... http://www.eurekazone.com/products/detail/srs.html This is the sale page for the SRK. I think the latest version has changed a little since these pics were taken but the function is essentially the same.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/EZ-Mortise-tenons-with-limit-stops
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/smart-router-system
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/Greek-key
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/system-of-capabilities
http://www.eurekazone.com/instructions/SRKinstructions.pdf These are the instructions...

So there ya go, X, Y, and Z axis movement in a very controlled manner. Easy to set up and easy to use. I'm not suggesting that this will take the place of an expensive CNC router in a production environment but it will do most of the same tasks for far less money.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce. Does anyone know if Dino @ EZ Smart have any dealers in Michigan, where I could actually go and see one in operation or try it out myself? It's hard to make a decision without seeing one up close.

[Daniel Hillmer]

That is quite dissapointing to hear, Daniel and frankly I am quite surprised. What have folks at the FOG been saying about this? Do you visit there? I don't since I hate Yahoo! formats. I figured even it was upgradeable, it would be nearly cost-prohibitive like most of Festool's stuff but I would probably have done it anyway. I guess I'll just keep puttering along with my "vintage" 1080 MFT! :)

Not sure, I've never visited that forum.

I'm also getting fed up with Festool's price fixing in the United States, which is illegal in the US - which is one reason why their products are cost prohibitive - that, and this german firms over inflated ego that their MFT system and tools function better than a table saw or all other power tools, and that they feel that they are gods greatest gift to humankind in the area of power tools, which creates a belief within their firm that because of this, they should be exempt from price fixing laws in countries that they sell in. I am also very surprised that state attorney generals or even the feds have not filed suits against Festool USA for these illegal practices, especially with all the white collar crime going on lately with corporate corruption. Maybe it's just a matter of time though.

It's almost like the managment at Festool in Germany believes that they are doing americans a favor by selling their products to us, that we should be greateful that we are allowed to buy their products and shoud kiss their feet and thank them for selling us their price fixed products.

Every festool dealer I have ever contacted, and on google shopping, each same item festoool product sells for the exact same price, except on a rare occasion, when festool corporation comes out with measly sale prices for some items, which again are all the same exact mark downs from each dealer. All dealer pricing is not off even by one penny. Festool's blatant price fixing is obvious and I personally find it obscene and offensive; it flies in the face what this country is based upon, a free market.

[Scott Coffelt]

That is quite dissapointing to hear, Daniel and frankly I am quite surprised. What have folks at the FOG been saying about this? Do you visit there? I don't since I hate Yahoo! formats. I figured even it was upgradeable, it would be nearly cost-prohibitive like most of Festool's stuff but I would probably have done it anyway. I guess I'll just keep puttering along with my "vintage" 1080 MFT! :)


I was told the fence could be used on both, but not everything. Might be a good question for Uncle Bob.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Thanks Bruce. Does anyone know if Dino @ EZ Smart have any dealers in Michigan, where I could actually go and see one in operation or try it out myself? It's hard to make a decision without seeing one up close.

Daniel, I would recommend either visiting the EZ Smart forum here on SMC and asking these questions or giving Eurekazone a call. Both places are extremely helpful and there may be a current EZ owner in your area to help you out. I don't believe there are any other EZ Smart Dealers other than with Dino in Edison, NJ. or in the U.K.

I understand about the decision to buy something without actually getting to see it first hand. Hopefully you can get in contact with someone near you. If not, there are a lot of Youtube videos and photos available. You could always start with just the basic setup and see how you like it too. Dino has the best return policy I've ever heard of so no worries there either. You really should try my suggestions in the first paragraph and see where you get with that.

Bruce

[Dave Falkenstein]

...What have folks at the FOG been saying about this? Do you visit there? I don't since I hate Yahoo! formats.

Ummm - The FOG has not been a Yahoo forum for close to two years.

[Chris Padilla]

Ummm - The FOG has not been a Yahoo forum for close to two years.

LOL! Obviously I have not visited in quite a long time, Dave! :o

[John Stevens]

BTW, do you have a link to the above described method in the Festool owners group?

Daniel, I've sent you a PM.

Regards,

John

[Rob Blaustein]

Thanks so much Rob for the info. A couple of concerns, in the above link you provided, I checked it out and on this page - http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-sq-3.htm where he describes the easy method for making parallel cuts with the two steel rules and rafter stops, it looks good, but from the photos there I don’t see how she is making the two rules paralell to each other, in order to assure the saw guide rail is parallel to the other edge of material – how is that accomplished?

My other concern with using a perfectly square piece of plywood to square the rail to the fence, is the stability of the material. As it gets moist the squareness can go off a bit and affect squareness.

Also, you said above “Here's a related tip” – did you intend to post a link for the tip? I also read David’s tip about the pin, but it’s not exactly clear to me how to prevent the slop by applying some lateral tension in order to have the rail fit into the tab, can u or someone elaborate on that a bit more?

Daniel,
I can't really speak to the approach used in that link you provided from John's site since I haven't gone through it.

As far as I can tell my piece of 3/4" baltic birch ply remains dimensionally stable even with some swings in humidity in my shop. Another option mentioned by Dave (and the link I provided) is that thick steel square from ENCO which I also found is no longer available from them. I got one a few years ago and like it, but find the piece of ply even better.

I don't have a link to my "related tip" but I'll try to explain further. With the rail lowered onto the table and resting on the tab, note that there is some lateral play. By that I mean that even with the tab engaged, you can wiggle the rail slightly because the tab is a bit smaller than the groove it sits in. As Dave mentioned, you can just keep some lateral pressure on the rail while sawing and make sure it stays against one side. You can also adjust the placement of the receiving end of the rail so that you need to apply a bit of lateral tension to get the rail to engage the tab. If that is the case then it tends to stay against the tab and this eliminates the play. You just have to fiddle with it and you'll see.

Do check out the Festool Owners Group, there is much good info there on technique.

--Rob