4/4 stock in stores?

[Steve Kolbe]

**Warning - Rant ahead**

<rant>
I encountered this for the first time today and was considerably annoyed with the response from the shop I was at. I am used to getting true 4/4 lumber - that's why we have the designations of 4/4, 5/4, 8/4 and 12/4, isn't it?! The shop was selling wood slightly (1/16") more than 3/4 - but marking it as 4/4.

The crazy thing is, if the lumber had been marked as 1" - ala normal dimensional lumber - I would not have been as annoyed. But they were trying to sell it as 4/4 stock. The reply I got (from an obviously annoyed worker) was that 3/4 is the industry standard for 4/4.

No.

3/4 is the industry standard for 1" dimensional lumber. Your sign says 4/4, NOT 1". Plus, the wood was rough cut as well - bark and all. It's like they were trying to sell Osage Orange 1" x 8" (3/4" x 7 1/2") lumber - but charging for and calling it 4/4 x 32/4 stock.

What the heck do we have the "quarter" system / name for then anyways?!

If the wood has been planed down - or finished down - to 3/4 stock, I understand that they need to be paid for that treatment. But, you can't call it 4/4 stock anymore.

SHEESH!
</rant>

[David DeCristoforo]

The "quarter system" is annoying and aggravating but there is some logic to it. 4/4 stock is typically sawn to 4/4 which is, obviously, one inch thick. It is then anyone's guess how thick that stock will be after surfacing. 7/8", 13/16", and 3/4" are not uncommon for wood sold as 4/4 surfaced stock. And of course, some 4/4 rough stock may be thicker than 1". I have often gotten 1 1/8" thick "4/4" lumber which makes it possible to net 1" thick wood after surfacing. But usually, if you want wood that is one inch thick after milling, you need to buy 5/4" which is sawn to 1 1/4". It would be nice if these specifications were universally adhered to but, like I said, it's anyone's guess how the wood will be processed by various mills. Usually I can easily get 7/8" finished thickness by buying 4/4/ rough stock and surfacing it myself.

[James Hart]

Ironically, today I grabbed a piece of Alder from a stack I picked up a while back. Was surprised when it measured a full inch.

All the 4/4 hardwood/exotics i've bought here in Phoenix has been either 3/4's or 13/16ths. But then it's been pretty well surfaced. The edges often still have bark, or the board is 6" wide on one end, 9" on the other.

They'll rip a straight edge for you if you want, but after they've measured the boards to calculate board feet. Same with the S2S, you're paying for the thickness before planing.

I wouldn't touch 3/4" rough wood, unless I was looking for something for drawer sides or maybe cabinet backs. And I'd expect a better deal.

Jim

[Sean Kinn]

This truly just comes down to the store/seller. I just bought about 30bf of 4/4 cherry from a new source. I have to say I was shocked when it all measured at EXACTLY at 1" to 1 1/16. The boards were so flat and straight that I'm expecting to end up with 7/8 at the very worst (likely 15/16) after jointing and planing. I paid for 4/4 and got an honest 4/4. Other places I go to have sold me 13/16 as 4/4 and explained that was "industry standard practice." Additionally, the policy at this new store seemed to be to round down if it was under .5bf. Some places round everything up, and if you are buying a large number of boards that rounding can really add up.

It's really irritating to pay for wood by volume (bf) then not get the volume you paid for. All I can say is to look for a dealer with more favorable policies. I've now found a new source, and while it is about 10-15 miles further and the prices per bf are slightly higher the stock is much nicer. I'd rather pay a few more dollars up front to have excellent flat stock, than to waste 1/3 of it (and a lot of time) trimming, jointing and planing it into submission.

[Prashun Patel]

If the stock was S4S, I might buy the guy's logic. But the fact that it was rough is the clincher. Ridiculous.

[Thomas Pender]

I agree with the others - there is no telling exactly what a 4/4 will finish too, but it better be 4/4 to start. After, all that is the representation. The 4/4 I buy from Northland Forest Products is 4/4 or better and when I buy QSWO I can almost always do even a little better than 13/16 if I am doing Mission stuff. I think Steve's rant is legitimate.

[Ross Ellis]

Steve,
I agree on all accounts but have to ask. When you say you are used to getting true 4/4, is this rough cut or planed 4/4? I'll explain why I ask while trying not to get too much into the milling process as I practice it.

When I set our mill to cut 4/4 lumber, it actually saws the boards 15/16ths due to blade thickness. It would take me a ton of time setting up each cut to 4/4 exactly, instead of just following the scale on the mill and letting it cut 15/16ths. By using the scale as intended I also know that my final board will be a standard thickness. I expect 3/4" finished lumber from 4/4 rough cut. I consider this 3/4" lumber (in my mind) from the get go. If I need 4/4 finished lumber I cut 5/4".

That being said. If I come across something nice after opening a log (birdseye, spalted, tiger etc) that is too nice for my meager woodworking skills, I sell to the local commercial mill rough cut. They take my 15/16ths boards and call them 4/4. I personally would not call them 4/4. I would call them 3/4" as that is what they will be after finishing. But who am I to argue.

Between the bark deal and rough lumber that is less than 15/16ths being sold as 4/4 I think both are bad practice.

[Sean Kinn]

The 4/4 I buy from Northland Forest Products is 4/4 or better...

Tom,
How funny you mention NFP specifically, that was the "new source" I was referring to that I just got the cherry from. I was very happy to pay slightly more per bf than other local places....and get an actual 4/4 that was very flat and straight.. I plan to make the trek over there more often!

[jason lambert]

They are eithor trying to rip people of or just stupid and don't know any better. The funny thing is that there are people that will buy it.

[Steve Kolbe]

Ross, 15/16ths would be just fine for rough cut lumber - especially something as hard as Osage Orange! This stuff was closer to 9/16ths. I was so happy to find this place too, they looked to have a lot of selection - not sure if I will go back there after the annoyed clerk and the innacuracies of his statement.

[Howard Acheson]

I am a little confused about your issue but to be clear on one point. 4/4 Hardwood lumber S2S is 13/16" thick and is refered to as "4/4 S2S". That's the standard for hardwoods. If the yard was selling wood that was 13/16" and calling it 4/4, then they were describing it correctly.

For softwood, the lumber is divided into "boards" which are 1" nominal to 1 1/2", "dimension" which are 2" nominal to 5" nominal and "timbers" which are 5" and greater. 1" nominal or sometimes referred to as "1x" (one by) has a surfaced dimention thickness of 3/4" and is still referred to as "1x.

[Peter Quinn]

I agree with Howie. If the wood you were looking at was "hit and miss planed' 4/4 it may have some rough face, it should measure 15/16" over most of its length. If you looked at S2S, it should have 2 clean faces, measure 13/16", and have two rough or live edges. If they are selling rough faced boards measuring 13/16", they are way off and something is wrong.

On a non commercial species like osage orange you have some choices to make. Buy the wood from them because you want it and can use it at that thickness and accept the price, or don't and look else where. I wouldn't get too hung up on the particulars if the deal works for you.

But if they are selling standard species like maple, cherry or oak unsurfaced as 4/4, charging 4/4 market prices, and giving you 13/16" rough for your money, then they are crooks and best avoided. Any saywer that can't cut wood to finish rough near an inch should take up a new trade. Things do shrink as they dry, some mills run a bit heavier than others so there is some normal variation around the 1" mark, but 13/16 is way past normal variation or excessive shrinkage.

[Chris Barnett]

Seems they are attempting to set a new standard for the new generation of wannabe ww, and hope folks will buy into it. Suggest you go elsewhere and tell the boss why you are going elsewhere, and that you have told all your buds too about their deceptive practices. In today's business climate, might make difference when they tally sales at the end of the day.