Is Festool really that good? (Revisited)

[Karl Brogger]

I went and looked at the Kapex. Gotta say, not impressed.

-The handle angle doesn't fit me well.
-The angle adjustment wasn't very smooth or easy to move, but the index's were very positive. Plus I hate that style of angle lock. I preffer the twist type.
-Complicated multi button/safety crap to move the head down. Probably not a big deal once you're used to it.

I didn't do any test cuts with the floor model, but just from what I saw it definately wasn't worth the $1300 price tag.

Before anyone blows a gasket, all of my complaints are more or less opinions. With that being said, I'm glad I didn't just order one up. I just happened to be driving by a Rockler. BTW, man that place is over rated. $9.00/bf for cherry, are you kidding?

[Erik Frederiksen]

I'm sorry, but trying to critique a saw without cutting anything with it seems to me to be kind of like critiquing a car without driving it or a wine without drinking it.

The Kapex cuts on a similar level as an M3 gets from point A to point B, it's hard to tell someone who hasn't experienced it.

[glenn bradley]

Kapex aside, Rockler, Woodcraft and others carry wood as a convenience for their customers. They openly admit their prices are high and they keep stuff on hand for folks who just need a little (and therefor pay a premium) or folks that are in a bind.

[Jason Beam]

I'm sorry, but trying to critique a saw without cutting anything with it seems to me to be kind of like critiquing a car without driving it or a wine without drinking it.

The Kapex cuts on a similar level as an M3 gets from point A to point B, it's hard to tell someone who hasn't experienced it.

If it doesn't fit, you don't need to cut a thing. His complaints had nothing to do with performance. They were about comfort. If ever there was a showstopper for a premium tool that many people try to equate to luxury cars, it'd be comfort. BMW's and Mercedes are pretty comfy to sit in, huh? I don't have to drive one to tell you that much.

In before the lock!! :D

[Karl Brogger]

I'm sorry, but trying to critique a saw without cutting anything with it seems to me to be kind of like critiquing a car without driving it or a wine without drinking it.

The Kapex cuts on a similar level as an M3 gets from point A to point B, it's hard to tell someone who hasn't experienced it.

But if the seat in the M3 doesn't go back far enough to get behind the wheel comfortably, it doesn't matter if you drive it.:D

[Dave Falkenstein]

I was hoping to find yet another thread about the short-comings of the Kapex and how the $1300 price tag is too high. Thanks Karl.

[Karl Brogger]

I don't know if its really a statement about the shortcomings of the Kapex. I just doesn't fit me. I recently had a thread on the subject that was locked, so another was needed. $1300 doesn't matter, so long as it is worth it, to me it didn't appear as such.

Unless you're being sarcastic, then I missed something.

[Steve Clardy]

I haven't had the chance to eyeball one yet.
Maybe at the next wood show when I attend.

[Clifford Mescher]

My take on the last two big item Festools is: I would buy the Domino,for it is unique and corners a market. I would not buy the Kapex for it is just another miter saw. Clifford.

[Brian Clevenger]

I have had the chance to check out the Kapex at my local Rockler. All said, it looks like a pretty nice saw. However, I don't see it ever making its way into my shop.

OTOH, I picked up a 12" Milwaukee scms yesterday. So far, it seems like a great saw. The dust collection is superb. The rectangle chute just fits a 4" dust hose with a little prying. With the DC connected, I bet it got 95% of the dust. I compared all of the sliders I could get my hands on. It was a pretty close race between the Bosch and the Milwaukee. In the end, I have on complaints.

[Chris Padilla]

As long as folks behave themselves and post in a courteous and civil manner, these threads can remain open indefinately but they always seem to degenerate....

[Russ Massery]

Karl, My opinion is right in line with yours. I wasn't impressed either especially for the money there asking for it. Most of the festool stuff I have I'm very happy with.

[John Morrison60]

I purchased a Makita SCMS when I was creating my shop.
I realized that the Makita was not going to work well for my use.
I subsequently purchased a Kapex which works exceptionally well.

I formed the following opinions after 8 months with the Makita, and two months with the Kapex.

Things the Kapex does better:
1. fits very close to a wall.
2. Dust collection (hooked to a cyclone) is great.
3. Will cut a slot very nicely.
4. trigering is sequenced and safer. (you quickly get used to it)
5. the dual laser is nicer for old minds that have to think:
"now which side of the line is the blade?"
6. compound mitre cuts -- seem to be easier to set up.
7. clever design is apparent
8. Fence is high and very usable. I had trouble with the height of
the Makita fence.


Things the Makita does better:
1. cutting table is larger and more usable.
2. moving the table around for angle cut is smoother and more solid.
(subjective judgement)
3. Sounds better (I also rate cars on how they sound)
4. smooth cut. (I think Makita includes a better blade)
5. Overall, the saw is made with more metal than the Festool,
and the metal casting work looks superior.



Things that I could not find any significant difference:
Cross cut.
Mitre cut.

I placed a very high value on dust collection and mountability
close to a wall. Those two features were worth the differential
price up to the Festool. Now I just have to sell the Makita.

I hope this is helpful to someone considering the Kapex.

John

[Bill Arnold]

...and nothing better to do with your money, then I guess you go for it. I've known a millionaire woodworker who bought from Grizzly. Yet, so many people on forums like this tell a newbie with limited funds who doesn't know where he's going to buy Festool or he's crazy! Very misleading!!! The talent is in the individual, not the tool.

;)

[John Keeton]

The talent is in the individual, not the tool.
;)
Bill, we used to own a hunting store and sold a lot of archery equipment. Archery pro shooters move from company to company endorsing products. Their moves were always motivated by $$. I often told customers who touted a certain brand because "pro shooter A" shot that brand, "that guy could take a tobacco stick and a piece of baling twine and outshoot most people."

It truly is a matter of talent.

I agree that better executed tools can certainly assist in producing quality work, but doubt they will change an individual with mediocre talent.

But, if one does this sort of thing for a living, then the rules change. If speed and dependability are major factors, and the individual can justify the additional cost with increased profit - that really is the only criterion that need be met.

On the topic of the original post, let me add that comfort in use is a safety concern for me. If the tool feels awkward, then my attention is drawn to relieving the discomfort. This is distracting, and I don't need distraction when using a spinning blade.

I posted on the other thread about the handle position for someone that is short. It is very awkward and reason enough that I would not purchase a Kapex. It probably does much better at certain tasks, but it does nothing different. The Domino, on the other hand, is a unique tool. I do not own one, but have lusted!

[Don Bullock]

...and nothing better to do with your money, then I guess you go for it. I've known a millionaire woodworker who bought from Grizzly. Yet, so many people on forums like this tell a newbie with limited funds who doesn't know where he's going to buy Festool or he's crazy! Very misleading!!! The talent is in the individual, not the tool.

;)

You are correct, talent or lack there of, are what makes the quality of the final product, not the tool. I don't think, however, that the OP was discussing talent or the product of talent. His post simply states reasons why the Kapex is not the tool for him. John, on the other hand, stated why it was the right tool for him. He wasn't saying that a person who is new to woodworking should buy Festool.

I must admit that I do have two Festool sanders and a CT 22 vacuum. After trying others brands I felt that they were what was best for my sanding needs. Can I recommend them to others? Sure because they do the job? But, should a newbie run out and buy them just because I like them? Absolutely not.

As for millionaires going out and buying Grizzly, they do make some excellent, highly priced tools. Most of the "stuff" in their catalog I can't afford. I would love to be in the position to call Grizzly up and put in an order. I wouldn't, however, tell a newbie that they should buy Grizzly tools just because the "price is right" either.

All of us must decide on the best tools for us. I appreciate posts like the ones on this thread that give reasons why someone selected one tool over another, especially when they are not all caught up in the brand name of the tool.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

I don't understand why anyone feels that they have the right to pass judgement on someone because they buy a particular brand or model. Most of us buy what is a negotiated compromise between quality and budgetary constraints.

Buy what you like, will use and can afford. Then use the tool.

Truly skilled woodworkers can do it with the top of the line or the bottom of the line. The point is they have the natural talents and skills to perform with either tool.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

...and nothing better to do with your money, then I guess you go for it. I've known a millionaire woodworker who bought from Grizzly. Yet, so many people on forums like this tell a newbie with limited funds who doesn't know where he's going to buy Festool or he's crazy! Very misleading!!! The talent is in the individual, not the tool.
;)

What that guy said.
If you spend a little time surfing the web you'll find some really great work done by people who seem to be able to coax even the cheapest machinery to work for them just fine. And then there is all that great work done by people whose only use for electricity is lighting.

It's the craftsman not the machine.

While it might be great to have the top of the line Martin saw, it's not necessary.

[James Hart]

But if the seat in the M3 doesn't go back far enough to get behind the wheel comfortably, it doesn't matter if you drive it.:D


The fact that the car doesn't fit you personally is completely irrelevant to what it might be worth to someone who fits in it perfectly.

The 'this doesn't fit MY eye/style/ergonomics' angle alone does not support the 'this isn't worth the price' comment.

Jim

[Jason Beam]

Sure it does. It's a showstopper, really. If you can't use the tool because of those factors, it certainly isn't worth the price.

I agree - it isn't worth the price "to me". And that's all any of us can rightfully state. It might be worth it "to you", but i don't have to agree with you if it doesn't fit me.

[Mark Roderick]

In golf it doesn't matter how good your equipment is because nobody can play the darn sport anyway. But in woodworking I definitely think it matters. It's wrong to give newbies the impression that they can expect the same cut from a Harbor Freight table saw (if they make one) that others get from a Powermatic, or the same cut from a Stanley plane they bought at the local hardward store as from a Veritas or Lie-Nielsen. If the newbie gets that impression he's going to feel VERY frustrated.

Tools really do matter in woodworking.

That's different than saying the Kapex is discernibly better than the Makita and therefore "worth the money." Once you get to a certain level of quality it really doesn't matter, or not much. But both Festool and Makita are very different animals than Black & Decker.

Yes, a pro could use a Harbor Freight table saw with a lousy blade and turn out great work, but only because he'd then "finish" the cut with his high-quality jointer plane.

I've been finishing some jewelry boxes with shellac. For the first one, to save time, I used a portable aerosol sprayer. I got good results but only because I sanded like crazy between coats. For the last three, I pulled out my Asturo spray gun that atomizes the shellac perfectly. What a difference! The shellac goes on like glass right out of the gun. Same woodworker, two different outcomes.

Woodworking is like skiing: the tools you use have a direct bearing on quality, especially if you're not a pro.

[James Hart]

Mark,

Could not agree with you more.

If folks really believed the mix between skills vs quality tools was that far skewed toward skills alone, there would be no Veritas, Powermatic, etc. etc. The only people paying for premium tools would be the clueless newbies who don't know that the extra money won't help them be more accurate or work with less frustration.

I agree with the earlier post that some of the premuim goes to speed and can be justified by pro's. I don't agree with the blanket concept that having better tools won't make you a better (or less frustrated) woodworker. Everyone's time has some value.

Jim

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

In golf it doesn't matter how good your equipment is because nobody can play the darn sport anyway.

HA HA HA HA HA That was funny~!!


But in woodworking I definitely think it matters.

There is a lot to say for good equipment or at least equipment that isn't working against you.

[Mark Roderick]

Cliff, I can tell by your reaction that you must have been exposed to the horror of "playing" golf at some time in your life. I was once a golfer - using that term loosely - but managed to break the habit using a 12-step program.

[Derek Tuchscherer]

12 Step Program....does that mean that one by one you threw your clubs into a water hazard????

[Mark Roderick]

Not quite, although that approach would have worked just as well!

I was only half-jokingly referring to the 12-step programs used by organizations like Alcholics Anonymous - and by the way, I don't mean in any way to poke fun at those organizations or their methods.

Golf is an addictive game, and I had to quit "cold turkey." I've felt better about myself ever since.

[Karl Brogger]

Golf is an addictive game, and I had to quit "cold turkey." I've felt better about myself ever since.
That's funny. I play golf.:D The trick is to not keep score, and drink heavily.


The fit is pure opinion. It didn't fit me. I don't care how well it cuts if thats the case.

The "not impressed" comment was about the fit and finish. Most of the movements weren't that smooth, or no better than the average slider. The saw costs at least 3 times the other 10" sliders. For that kind of money it should be the definative commercial grade saw. It isn't. Dust collection isn't that important to me, niether is a laser. I didn't make it far enough to test the vertical angle adjustment. I spent probably two minutes looking at it to pass this judgement. It does have some neat features like speed control, but I honestly don't think I would ever adjust it. Being able to cut notches with it is nothing new. I know I've done this with a DeFault slider. I did really like the fence. Someone mentioned the Makita fence being too low, I agree.

Makita, or Hitachi are the two on the radar screen now.

[Karl Brogger]

Now on tools and the quality of work produced.

I consider myself pretty good, but honestly you are only as good as the tools you use. Not having to screw with things endlessly allows you to do quality work. But!!!! with that being said, a hack is a hack. It doesn't matter what you put in his hand he will turn out crap and nothing more.

[Jeremy Parkins]

Seeing we are on golf... I used to teach golf and clubs... the basic idea was to get clubs into a players hands that did not hinder their learning or potential.

I see tools the same way.. at some point the quality reaches a point that tolls produce the same output and we are shopping based on feature sets....

I think it comes down to getting high enough quality tools in someones hands to not hinder their ability to produce a project inline with their skill level...

JP